I'd like to read those articles. Do you have any links? As 'Pete said, I'm not ready to mythbust this either. I'm just saying what I found. I find it intriquing if it were true, and I can tell you that if I get bitten by something venomous and have no other means, I'm damn well sure I'm going to at least try it. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I also remember the some of the more "fringe" ideas turning out to be true. The stomach ulcer/bacteria link, HPV/Cancer link. It was thought by most western medicine that some more 'holistic' approaches to reduce viral and bacterial counts in order to control cancer were complete bunk, but it turns out they might be a very strong vector.

I can think for myself, and if there is some scientific evidence behind it, I'd like to see the published data (on humans). If he's unwilling to publish said data, I will assume the facts are either fabricated or stretched out of proportion. Scientists publish postulates which are backed up by experimentation. Sounds like he has that data (even if the process is unknown). There's no problem saying "I've observed this behavior when experimentally applying this treatment, and I have one or two ideas of how it could be working."

This gives other doctors and scientists ample information to replicate experiments and determine results. I'll withhold judgement until I know more, but if you know the Doctor personally and even if the report hasn't been published in larger journals, it should be available in a peer review situation. Please Ask Dr. Ron to provide that information as I think it would be an impressive solution for a lot of people. This would also open up further experimentation by others to determine effectiveness against all types of venom and from other stingin/biting creatures like bees, jelly fish, fire ants, wasps, mosquitos, scorpions, and maybe other histamine related items like poison oak, ivy, etc.)

I'm wondering if that snake bite doctor on TV (the one with the long hair and rectangular glasses, I think Discovery or TLC?) knows about this and if he's tried it experimentally. Seems like he's a pretty savvy cat when it comes to snakes, and my guess is that some human somewhere will allow a small electric jolt to see if it cures him right up.

Anecdotally this sounds great. I just want to see some proof. I doubt any other logically thinking reader here would disagree with that standpoint.

And this is absolutely no affront to you Macgyver - I'm glad you brought it to our attention! I hadn't even heard of this. That's one of the other great things about this board.

Paramedic pete, good question.
Massacre, no affront taken. I like proof too!

For those who are medically minded this is the explaination (quoting Ron's report) " In vitro studies have demonstrated loss of enzymatic activity of the coagulase and phosphatase enzymes when placed in an electric field. SDS-Page protein electrophoresis does not show any alterations in the protein of the crude venom following shock. However, upon purification of the phosphoesterases from the crude venom, the "inactivation"of the enzyme by electrical shock disappears." This is from the german experiments that were done.

Also an explaination can be found in The Lancet December 6 1986 page 1335 (available from any good main library). And check out Ron's publication concerning 34 cases of snake bite in The Lancet July 26 1986 page 229.

Just a correction, I assumed the 322 person study was done in the early eighties, although there was no start and finish date given. Ron has informed me that the study period was from 83/84 to around 95.

I now have made a pdf of the lancet publications and the oklahoma state med. ass. journal articles if any members would like copies send me a PM with your e-mail addresses. Warning- It is 12mb though! I m not aware of any links to these publications online. The Publications which they put out are available from the Oklahoma State Medical Association (you have to call).

As far as peer review goes in actual fact the review is funneled through just a couple of people for each area of expertise. If they are not open minded to certain things (history has shown that all the great advances were strongly resisted) Then no further studies can be accepted for peer review. Those of you who are wise, read between the lines here.

This First Aid method seems to work best when used within a short period of time after the bite has been inflicted. The more time that elapses the less local the reaction is and the harder it is to treat effectively. This would be more noticeable with very fast acting venoms. If the blood has stopped clotting it sure would help having some antivenom and benadryl handy!

Something I cannot stress enough is that this process cannot be touted as a treatment or cure for snakebite, but a first- aid treatment only. (this is for legal reasons) That way everyone is covered.

I had problems with my supposed "unlimited" email size limit so I have set up a temporary PRIVATE link to the PDF files of the studies, if any members want to download copies send me a personal message and I will send you the link.

Post the link here, if you could.

I watch a lot of shows on the Discovery Channel... Or rather listen to them while I'm working...

Every once in a while I'll hear something so interesting that I will stop what I'm doing and turn my attention to the television. I pick up a lot of interesting ideas and good information at times. However and somewhat unfortunately, it also means that I miss a lot of show titles, and I forget to check the digital guide for this information, so please forgive the fact that I can' remember the particular show I saw the following on.

There was a show on last year in which they talked about electrical shocks used for venomous spider bites such as the Brow Recluse's. Several doctors were using modified personal protection devices to shock the site of venomous spider bites to neutralize the poison.

They mentioned that scientific studies were being done to test the theory currently, but other than the positive personal accounts given by doctors and patients not much more was given.

In another interesting part of this show it was mentioned that in some cases, over time, Brown Recluse Venom would in some way reactivate and cause damage, even years after the initial bite. So, some of the people interviewed carried their own shockers with them... Weird...

Now my grandfather would wake up, and almost every morning shock himself with an electric fence charger he kept in the kitchen.

Many years later we found out that he had been doing this since he was diagnosed with cancer that he refused treatment for.

The doctors didn't understand how he managed to live so long in what most would call a normal lifestyle with such an advanced case of cancer. And when I say normal, of course I mean minus the self imposed electric shock treatments... HAHAHA

Who knows if those shocks did anything or not, but he claimed he felt better afterward, so we all just kind of cringed and hoped he wouldn't accidentally electrocute himself. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Granted, I should mention that this man, when told how much he was going to be charged to have some of his teeth pulled so he could be fitted with dentures, went home and pulled those teeth himself with a pair of pliers. OUCH!

DISCLAIMER: Don't try any of the above on yourself just because you read something about it in a forum... In a post by a graphic designer of all things... LOL

Just a correction to my previous post, about how vitamin c works.

No studies have been done as far as I know of concerning the use of vitamin c and snake bite so the mechanism can only be theorised. I was talking to a doctor yesterday, who is much more knowledgable than myself, <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> and he said that the ascorbic acid (vitamin c) would not digest the venom but must be somehow de-activating it also.

Nicodemus, thanks for the info it sounds curious. At least one of the Oaklahoma State Medical Association studies was partially envolving brown recluse spider bite as well. The Mennonites in our area used cattle prods to treat these bites with great sucess.

Also I saw a program on discovery years ago about a rattlesnake roundup in texas where one of the guys got bitten. They showed the paramedics outside with a stun gun shocking him well around the bite. The next day he was back at the roundup with very little wrong with him.

The latest info i have received had been from Dr Sean Bush. For most envenomations of snakes in the US, the primary tx is calm down, clean the wound, seem medical attention...........most of the time an average adult can usuallly withstand a bite. Course it all depends on the amount of venomation injected. He noted the various treatment modalities out there. But for the most part, due to the tachycardic state most victims are in due to the "shock " from being bitten, usually the venom is in full steam by the time anyone could ever consider really trying to reverse anything. Shock therapy and the old familiar saywer extractor both and contribute to as well and hinder the help your seeking. Both can cause localized necrosis of the area due to cellular disruption due to current altering the tissue membranes and or from the negative pressure of a suction device. The only current treament for anything lately i've heard is for Elapid (coral) snakes and that is to keep the wound at heart level and wrap it if its a limb with an ace wrap..
With any form of treament, the best place to start is considering the type of venom itself, wether it be hemotoxic or neurotoxic, etc...
Course if your in "aussie" country and its a Taipan envenomation...........well pray, and start bustin ass toward a hospital!

Ascorbic acid has some really interesting properties that I don't remember completely. It's part of how anti-oxidents work in the first place. Basically, it's "huggy", that's why it neutralizes the taste of iodine (and chlorine, so I've been told) in so treated water. Still looking to see if it just a mask, or if it also effects the absorbtion of the iodine. If it does, that might be the logic behind this theory, but anything taken (oral, DSMO patch, IM or IV) after the bite I just don't see as being into the system fast enough.

Still, I haven't read those papers yet. I'll pass them along to the folks I know who can put things like PhD and MD after thier names.

Actually it is interesting that all the research points to the HVDC shock stopping necrosis of the wound instead of contributing to it. The sawyer extracter however, may do as you say. It is interesting that most of the "experts" who say HVDC for bites is harmful, or won't work, either haven't used the method or have waited way too long before using it.

If you have ever done this to yourself, you realize that the shock treatment when administered properly (read very short bursts) does not cause shock to the system at all. There are bunches of doctors and experts out there who say it is a waste of time, when they have never used HVDC as first aid. Those (mostly doctors who have no other options, ie. in the third world) who do try it, become believers very quickly.


It takes quite a long time for the vitamin c to work against the venom if you take it oraly. However if you inject it under the skin or into the mustle near the bite site it should go into the lymph system. That is exactly where the venom is residing and travelling, so it has a very good chance to mingle with the venom and combat it. Also we are talking about large levels of vitamin c, 15-20 ccs (for a grown person).

There is a good link on the subject of vitamin c (albeit anecdotal) at http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/vitc.htm

For those who are the research types, this is the information of the studies that have been published.

The Lancet, July 26 1986 pp 229
"HIGH VOLTAGE SHOCK TREATMENT FOR SNAKE BITE"

The Lancet, December 6 1986 pp 1335
"BIOLOGICAL BASIS FOR HIGH VOLTAGE SHOCK TREATMENT FOR SNAKE BITE"

Oklahoma State Medical Association journal Vol. 83, January 1990 pp 9-14
"Treatment of Venomous Bites by High Voltage Direct Current" by Carl D. Osborn, MD

Oklahoma State Medical Association journal Vol. 84, June 1991 pp 257-260
"Treatment of Spider Bites by High Voltage Direct Current" by Carl D. Osborn, MD

Oklahoma State Medical Association journal Vol.85, July 1992 pp 331-333
"Multiple HVDC Shocks as First Aid or Therapy for Venomous Bites and Stings" by Carl D. Osborn, MD

I was able to review the scientific articles provided by Macgyver. Seems like such an unlikely idea, doesn't it? I scratched my head over it when I read Macgyver's original post, but at the moment, I'll concede that the method seems to have merit.

I still have some serious reservations, at least based on reading this particular set of articles. The fact that no one really understands how high voltage direct current (HVDC) affects the venom is one. There are theories given and observations, but no definitive explanations yet. And the second is that none of these articles reports the results of truly scientific experiments, in the sense that you compare people with bites who were treated and not treated with HVDC. Or even lack of a good animal study that supports HVDC. Those are pretty serious gaps in our knowledge and without filling in those holes, the medical community will never accept this technique.

However, the fact that Drs. Guderian and Osborn have reported on successfully treating over 600 patients is hard to ignore, too. And based on that and the fact that even a prestigious medical journal like the Lancet would even consider mentioning it in its pages, if I were bitten in some jungle by a lethal snake and days away from the nearest hospital, I think I would give it a try. On the other hand, if I simply saw an infomercial on TV where the guy claims to have successfully treated 600 people with his patent-pending electric venon zapper, I would pass.

So, Macgyver, you say you've done this a number of times. What kind of set up are you using? And since I've never been shocked with a stun gun or cattle prod, how does it feel? Like the shock from static electricity? In one of Dr. Osborn's articles, a poor kid was stung by a wasp on the bridge of his nose and his face was swelling badly. The modified stun gun was used on his face! Now that's gotta hurt! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />