I don't think it's information overload, I know a number of young men and women (who I don't think of as kids) from this generation who are very wired in who want to learn. I did a very informal study a few months back, sitting around the lunch table with them. Keep in mind, this is at an engineering college. The questions were:

Were you read to?
Did you learn to read prior to kindergarten?
What was your first toy?

The smarter and more imaginative ones, who are reluctant leaders, answered Yes to the first one, across the board. Most said yes to the second one, and the one who didn't has radical dyslexia. And to the third one, everyone said blocks or legos. Even the young ladies.

Unfortunately, the thirty people I asked aren't really big enough to be called a study, but I'd love to do this one with the general public.

I don't think it's the privilage of the information available to them. This complaint has been heard before, at the end of every great Pax. It's the fact that they aren't exploring. Every single one of the people I asked who I would describe as a leader or a doer camps or climbs or hikes or kyaks or any and all of the above.

They have imagination. They all design, rather than copied other peoples work. They want to take the universe apart to see what makes it tick.

They do things the hard way, when they have time, because it's more instructive. Or becuase it's fun.

They also question what they see. They react badly to being lied to, and they try to change things that are wrong.

I'd say that if anything, it's the exact opposite of data saturation. Most kids are spoon fed what they know, and they only know it by rote. The kids just don't care, becuase no one has ever made them care. They never earned what they know and think, they had everything in thier heads handed to them. The young ladies and gentlemen in question don't.

I think if I had to sum up the difference, it's a matter of roles. Do you produce ideas and create the world? Or do you consume and use?

My wife and I just had a conversation about this. It seems they want to be taken care of.

If the SHTF, they would sit on the sidewalk and wait for the gubmint to come along and hold their hands. They would then proceed to whine about whoever is in charge (Dem or PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.) letting them down.

I've seen this over and over again. Even in minor situations.
I'm the "crazy survivalist" uncle/cousin they make fun of - until they need me, of course.

I hear your well thought out points. Sure, -we and preceeding generations, both here and elsewhere round the world, -have been thru ruff times before. Often plenty ruffer than what we typically crow, cry, and canterwaul about.

However, -I'm not so much referring to our current list of all round woes per se, -as conventional wisdom now has it. True, -these are a good part of it all. But I am not saying that these are solely what such upcoming Ruff Times are all about.

(NOTE- In the following, -I minimally and neccessarily generally *touch* on political etc causes, -towards "establishing the source". And *not* for the purpose of improperly venturing into this sphere here, itself).

I'm referring "most centrally" to things like America and/or the Western World in general, -suddenly finding itself knocked flat on its back! September 11th times 5, 10, or more plus. True enemies out there gathering and strengthing, forming Alliances and whatnot, -while we suddenly find our technological and other rugs just yanked out from under us!

That very shock and sense of being lost, -of that moment, -would be an additional burden to the full load we'd be then carrying, in itself.

Kinda like when Stalin spent weeks just lost and lollygagging around, in the opening days, weeks, and months of *his* World War 2, -not knowing what to do! Meanwhile, more than a few huge Soviet Armies, -hundreds of thousands strong each, -were just cut off and left behind, -in German encirclement after encirclement. What a tremendous waste!, -of vital and valuable resources! At precisely at the moments when you so sorely, absolutely *Need* them!!! Bet he was sorry that he previously sacked so many valuable, sorely needed, generals too! In his purges, -actually a misidentification of his real, then upcoming, problems. Meanwhile, -he for the longest time, -just sat stunned out on the floor! His far more prepared enemy meanwhile raced all the way to Leningrad, Kursk, the Caucass, Moscow, and his namesake city, Stalingrad. Lucky he had the great Russian and Siberian hinterland, (and Western aid and Fronts), to eventually draw from. What if he wouldn't have had even that?!

I'm talking something of such, -reasonably likely someday happening to us! Yes, -U.S.! While *we* lollygag around with things like Defense Softness, and more than a little "September 11th was so Yesterday!", -worrying more about being "Nice" to hijacker types at Guantanamo, -than preventing them from doing such again, -They and other "Ruff Forces" out there, -could well be "Cooking and Conspiring Up", -for a knockdown blow! *On* and *At* us!

Natural Disasters and things like a bird flu pandemic, -could play great "supporting roles".

We could find ourselves trying to hold too many balls up in the air, at once!

I'm talking our very Technological Base, -being knocked right back to the Stone Age! Thats what I mean, by "Valley Forge type Hardships", once again.

And things that go around, have a funny way of eventually coming around. I don't mean to get improperly political here, -but our leaving of South Vietnam to the wolves in 1975, -during their Moments of Need, -haunts me and causes me to shudder. (I did not personally drop this ball so back then, -as a highschooler, -I was very Alarmed, Uneasy, and Concerned!). Twas easy to look the other way back then, -it wasn't directly us. But *we* could be the ones someday in Saigon's shoes. Uncomfortably so knowing what that feels like. Further, ther'll be no bigger brother than us to turn to, -*we* are it.

Just look at the manifold and continueing, -Tones and Tenors of our Times! Since 9-11, -and actually brewing up, -from long before. The trends here which point to very likely upcoming Ruff Times, -and I mean Flat on our Back upcoming Ruff Times!, -are only legion. (media exaggerances, one side of the story, etc, notwithstanding).

We're like a nice, hot cup of coffee, -set in the freezer, -I'm afraid. I'm afraid that we don't have enough "Oomph of Warmth" in that cup, -to hold our own, *and* overcome the effects of that freezer! -The *Long Term* effects of that surrounding freezer. Nothing Less than the requisite "Oomph" here, -is gonna do! Yet we *still* all too often, lollygag around, -in our own sorts of way!

We're like a hockey team. -playing brilliantly in one or two one minute spurts each period, -yet very much just "drop the puck", -for the rest! *While* our opponent moves to a "Full Court Press Power Play", -throughout. For the duration. What kind of hockey game, -much less Winning one, -is that!? It surely is plenty less than our Best! And nothing less than our Best, -our *sustained* Very Best, -will do! I'm wondering whether we Really have such in us! For more than just a minute or two each period, -for more than just a few days, weeks, or months, -after something serious or significant happens. Like BJ Thomas says in one of his songs, -"For More than just a day!".

I had to touch on some political matters to convey where I'm coming from, -in my speaking of likely upcoming Ruff Times. To further clarify such as real "Flat Out on our Back", of such. Not just today's conventionally understood "this or that". This would seem to be the case, -via your's and some other's replys here. But beyond neccessarily establishing the general source and cause, -I don't mean to be talking political matters here.

Again, -I'm not talking *only* of conventionally well known matters such as Hurricanes, Iraq, etc, as elements of Ruff Times here. Which as you say, -large though they are, -pales next to some real, plenty Ruffer, -stuff as we've been through before! And yet came through and on Top.

But rather some real, Knock Flat Out on our Backs! Sorts of Rough Times, -from any number of more or less, simultaneously occurring, sources and causes. Be such man made or natural.

We *can* avoid such a fall into the saltpit! But not if we play only a "sometimes" game of hockey, -as we all too often play. Proceed at our Best! And we may not have to implement our preparations then. We may not have nearly as many Ruff Times. We may then not find ourselves Flat on our Back so!

Till then, -and/or failing such fully sustained Best of ourselves, -Preparedness is all we can, -and had bettered, -be about and do. For Real, Flat on our Back, Rough Times a coming, -are then all so very much more likely! I once again am afraid!

This being suppossedly over *only* all too well known current matters as Iraq and Katrina?, -Well as Tom Cheney said to Mattie Ross in True Grit, -"That was not my Meaning"!
[color:"black"] [/color] [email]Ors[/email]

A further thought or two that has since occurred;-

Its just that there's been a Cascade of Softiness lately, -as regards being on our Guard, remaining Vigilant, etc. Astonishingly and Alarmingly so. Like our seriously entertaining closing down Guantanamo, recent NSA matters, etc. This on *top* of other, longstanding Ball Droppages, -such as watering down the Patriot Act, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. (Again, -all of this minimal mention of such, -is towards establishing the source. Toward further clarifying my meaning, -in that such need had arisen).

We recently released a listing of those at Gitmo. *Osama* reminded us just recently, -that he so knows, -*and that this is by our having told him*! Too late now, -that ammo has just been Gifted over to the enemy! Hopefully we've learned!

Try doing any of these Waterdowns within a few months after 9-11, -and the whole country would be crying for such a one, -to *go* to a place like Gitmo. Twasn't too much then, -but it is too little now. This doesn't say much for our Resolve or Memory! Nor for our future Safety.

Its not a given that another one will happen, -but it much more enlikens it. We're hanging out a cascade of raw, juicy meat, -before the Qaida and company dog.

This, -along with other causes abrewing, -causes me to feel lately, -that serious, Flat Out on our Back, Ruff Times, -are more than likely a coming!

I mean we're really dropping such balls lately pretty bad! Like a hungry pig to the slop trough! (I used to live on a farm). This is no way to Watch, Fight, and Prepare, -for our very National Survival !

I'm also sure most of us have heard of such things as Informaton / Cyber Warfare, and EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse). This is a major part of where I'm coming from, -when I speak of likely enuff someday finding ourselves Flat on our Back, -and being technologically knocked from the Space Age, -right on back to the Stone Age! And from Blackhawks, Tomahawk cruises, etc, -right on back to Valley Forge Hardships once again.

How often do we ever ask ourselves (without being a Defeatist), -"What if we Lose?!" What if we are frankly someday, -Conquered?!

We need to play Brilliantly and at our Best!, -throughout the *entire* hockey period and game! We're up against a World Class Opponent! Albeit in other ways than are we. Our Memory and Resolve, -has to last longer than a minute every now and then!

Otherwise, -I'm afraid we're not gonna make it thru the period, game, or War.

Of course I remain cheerleading and in the fight, -for our side. But I am quite Disappointed and Less than Happy!, -with our side as well! In our playing such a vital game, -as though it were some mere Sunday School chore or obligation or something!

OK, -its now sufficiently enough, -towards establishing such a source. For at least the most part, -I've said my such Peace.

So now onto the final relevant reminder here, -BE PREPARED! Learn and Inform yourselves up! Bug Out Move, Hunker Down and Stay in Place, -or whatever shades of grey in between. But however you do it, -Do It !!! BE PREPARED so!

We've been tempting the Dog and Fate way too much lately! and I see little to no sort of "Get a Grip and Hold to Ourselves" of an end in sight! But I rather only see who knows how much more of the Softish Dangerous same! We *Can't* be having that! This can't be sustained indefinitely. Sooner or later, -that dog's going for the meat! And that bite's gonna come out of our, -or some Fellow Westerner's, hide.

The astonishing Ball Droppages have been too much lately. Therefore, -I reluctantly but realistically am afraid, -that Real, as much as Flat Out on our Back, Ruff Times, -are more than likely, with odds more than even, -a coming!

The source causes of this have now been basically mentioned. We should Avert it to our Utmost, -by turning the heck around! From all this "Softy Swim"!

But whether we do so or not, -the question remains, -regarding any such upcoming Ruff Times, -What the heck are we gonna do about it!? The only all round answer once again, -is be Apprised, Alert, and PREPARED !!!!

This should be "End of Story". But how much more is this Nation and Culture of our's, -to be Reminded !? I thought it said Loud and Clear, -that it was going to "Never Forget"! How bout Remembering and Acting like we do, -then!

PREPARE PREPARE! I'm afraid there may very well be such a need! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ScottRezaLogan[/email]

In short, I agree with you, but, my personal opinion would be considered draconion by many on this board, so, I will keep it to myself. If you're interested in what a right-winger from the Heartland thinks, and promise not to be offended beyond further communication, PM me and I'd be happy to discuss it in more detail in private <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Troy

Agreed, I'm from the land of AuH2O and I don't think this forum is the place for this disscussion. I too would be happy to disscuss it elsewhere.

Ok. You've piqued my interest. What does that mean? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Au= Gold
H2O= Water

AuH20= Goldwater

From the 1964 election, for those of you old enough to remember:

What does LBJ see when he looks in the urinal?

His Integrity?