My question is why doesn’t Doug include a Plastic shelter in the PSK. Shelter is a extremely important part of survival and it seems to me since I live near mountains that being able to pull a plastic shelter out of my pocket is more important than having just a small compact PSK. I would rather have a little more bulk in my pocket because of speed of which I can put a shelter together. I can reduce shelter construction from 2 hours to 2 minutes and that is a major benefit. It takes time and a lot of energy to create a shelter in the mountains. It is better to have something on hand to use immediately. I have seen the effects of wind, rain, and cold and I know how deadly they can be. Time is also a big enemy and is equally as deadly. I think having a plastic shelter is vital.<br><br>What do you think?<br>

i definantly agree with a quick shelter, and its for this reason that i modified my tarp to make it fully "stormproof" (i havnt used it in a storm ;O). i attached 3 elastic cord loops near the midle of the tarp, tied on some nylon cord and then rig it up as normal. the middle loops can be strung betweew higher branches to make sure the tarp doesn't flap in high wind.<br><br>true, it isn't a "pocket shelter", but its ligher than a tent, and more versitile than a bivy, and it also weighs the same. its just an idea...

I can't speak for Doug, but in my cse, my mini-kit only includes items that are difficult to improvise in the field and that complement normal carry items: knife, flashlight, lighter, cell phone, etc... If I were to actually adventure afield, I certainly would be prepared with shelter making material. For me, that would include: 1. Ultralight nylon poncho. 2. Duct tape. 3. Paracord. 4. Contractor bags. 5. Space blanket.<br>My altiods kit is not a complete kit, it's primary purpose is to carry all the little doo dads that you either wouldn't carry or that would get lost in your pocket fuzz.

You carry good stuff. I would never go in to the mountains with anything less. The wind, rain, and cold are fast and devastating enemies. They can attack as efficiently as a well-trained military unit and kill you within a short period of time. I think that immediate shelter should be a mandatory item in all kits. <br>

You know that is interesting that you said that because I have been thinking about tarps as well for that same reason. I was in a wind storm on mount Rainer once and the wind was so powerful that it blew branches and debris down the side of the mountain and ripped two of our three tents to shreds It even picked up all our lose equipment and scattered the stuff around. Wind can put a cramp on plastic shelters and it is better to have something you can tie down quickly.

The very recent crash of the helicopter crew on nearby Mount Hood makes this a timely topic. Doug does include shelter in his various kit components. For the "guy on the street" with a Altoid tin and sebenza ( dream on Chris,) shelter means quality clothing and a few large trash bags, space blanket and paracord as mentioned in fellow posts. The second anyone contemplates an ascent of Hood, Rainier or Wilson a dedicated system becomes mandatory.

Shelter is critical, of course. It's not going to fit into a micro-mini-kit ("PSK"). Here are a few of my thoughts, colored by my experiments and experiences:<br><br>Two plastic garbage bags (preferably heavy duty) can be pressed into service in a number of ways.<br><br>A proper parka plus other clothing is an expedient bivy shelter/sleeping bag one wears (many times personal experience - it works - not comfy, but it works).<br><br>A poncho, particularly a military poncho (NATO spec), is very versatile, altho I have always found them to be a tad small used as a shelter. They are so-so used on wet ground as a ground sheet, depending on the remaining efficacy of the waterproofing (exception being the ancient heavy rubberized canvas ones). Supplementing a poncho with a reflective blanket, even a disposable one, is a good idea. There are a few specialized (larger and high tech material) military ponchos out there, but they command a premium price even used and I have very little first hand experience with them.<br><br>About any expedient shelter takes TIME and effort to errect. The more times one practices in different environments, the less time and effort it takes. Using one's expedient shelter on routine outings is a GREAT way to learn all the tricks. Give yourself LOTS of time the first 5 or 6 times - start shelter construction about 3-4 hours before dark (really!). Depending on available resources, a practiced person can cut that down to a moment for instant shelter (like waiting out a rainstorm while snacking) to about 15-20 minutes for an adequate over-night shelter. All expedient shelters should be maintained/improved daily, in my opinion - they are never "finished".<br><br>Plastic film (e.g. "Visquene") based emergency shelters are better than nothing. It is cheap. It's also relatively heavy and weak. Strength can be improved (preferably in advance) by "rip-stopping" it with (first choice) filiment straping tape or (second choice) non-metalic duct tape - of course, that increases weight about 15% - 20% - an example of the basic idea can be found in the BSA Field Handbook (3rd edition).<br><br>Next up in suitability is a woven polyethelene tarp - the infamous "blue tarp" - available in other colors now, of course. Cost is a fair indication of quality - they are not all equal. The cheapest ones may be even cheaper than plastic film. These suffer UV degradation badly - the cheapest ones will disintigrate in a matter of weeks of constant exposure. A decent quality one is quite useful, just the same. The bulk can be reduced somewhat with careful folding and rolling, then binding very tightly with accessory straps or (ta-da!) cord (er, I meant "paracord" <grin>). If the cord is pre-cut to use with the tarp as a shelter, it speeds things up considerably.<br><br>A far superior low-cost emergency shelter uses duPont Tyvek Housewrap (not Typar). The commercial wrap will work as well - just a bit heavier. The printed side should face the elements - sky (tarp) or ground (ground sheet). It is a non-directional "weave" and very strong. Also resists UV degradation better than plastic film or nylon. "Hand" can be vastly improved by repeatedly crumpling it up (stuff and re-stuff it into a stuff sack many times) or by running it through a conventional home agitator-type washing machine (no detergent, cold water) - DO NOT run it thru a clothes dryer ( one CAN use a dryer on AIR ONLY) - just hang it on a line and it will be dry very quickly, as it absorbs < 0.01% water. If one cannot obtain a remnant, buddy-up and cooperatively purchase a 150' roll of the wide stuff. Cost should run around 10 cents/square foot or less. There is seaming tape available for the inventive folks, but simple is good with this material. Properly done, a Tyvek tarp is even lighter (real-world) than a same-size silicone-treated nylon tarp and essentially (real world) at least as strong. Of course, for all practical purposes, you gotta like white with logo printing as a color...<br><br>Next would be the various nylon tarps - homemade or commercial. They can be as light as non-treated ripstop (parachute material - personnel, not cargo), which is very good stuff in dry snow conditions and worthless in any damp or wet, to silicone-treated ripstop (VERY expensive), to urethane coated ripstop (conventional), to urethane coated cordura (a bit heavy, but still compact and durable as heck).<br><br>The list goes on and on - many things are adaptable. Just make sure you have something in your essentials kit and you'll be much better off. And like I said, the payoff for learning to use whatever one carries is very very high - practice really helps immensely.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

I agree that inclusion of some sort of membrane - poncho, tarp, or painter's cloth is an important part of a survival kit. However, don't forget that the local area will offer shelter possibilities that range from barely adequate to superb. Areas of the American southwest are replete with rock shelters that are superb shelters - better than any tent. Many other locales offer more limited possibilities than can achieve adequacy, given ingenuity and time.<br><br>Climbers above timberline often dig snow caves, seek shelter in crevasses, or on volcanic peaks like Mt Rainier, use the snow caves created around fumaroles - they are wet, but warm, and climbers have survived using them.

>>>Tyvek Housewrap <br><br>How big of a sheet do you carry?

I think the biggest issue is size. PSK stands for Pocket Survival Kit. The most common container is an Altoids tin or similar sized container (bandaid box, cigarette box, etc.) <br><br>It would be difficult to fit any size tarp into a container that size. Shelter is one of the big three, water, shelter, fire. Carrying a shelter is preferred but is beyond the scope of a PSK. If you move up to a larger container- fanny pack, daypack, etc., carrying a shelter is a very realistic opportunity.

I completely agree however shelter is extremely important in the rule of three's.<br>You die in: <br> 3 min without air<br> 3 hours without shelter <br> 3 days without water<br> 3 weeks without food<br><br>The PSK is very compact and easy to carry. However the rule is the rule. The Shelter priority is one of the highest. So I don't know what is best way, however I find it easy to carry at least one trash bag in my back pocket. If I was ever in real trouble I would be thankful that I did. How about you?<br>

Certainly no disgreement here. Some means of shelter should be carried by anyone going afield. People like me are likely to have a trash bag even in town not to mention what my attache contains (more toys that work!). That being said, the most important shelter ingredients are a head for finding shelter in the environs and a knife. Add to that some paracord and perhaps some duct tape, and "things" are looking much better even without a carried barrier!

My PSK, an altoids tin with all the normal stuff, contains a very thin 13 gallon trashbag. This is potentially a good addition to a debris shelter or some other structure. Alone, it would disentigrate before I could get it strung up as a tarp - expecially in any weather that I needed to shelter myself from. with a structure such that it only needed to provide the waterproofing but not the wind or support it might be a very good addition. <br><br>

Last time I looked at the stats, hypothermia was still the No 1 killer 'out there'. In all but the most minimal kits I carry shelter, and the latest is the ultralightweight 'space blanket', designed to radiate the body's heat back, can be opened up via velcro tabs, is washable, and packs down to a small pocket size. It is US made, more foldable than the earlier space blankets. If you have a pocket you can carry this item. Can't remember the brand, but I can supply it if anyone is interested and can't find a similar blanket. <br>Cheers, PeterR

I agree the rule is the rule. I agree that shelter is important. And yes, I do carry trash bags with me. <br><br>I think that most of the people on the forum agree with you that shelter is important. Many of us have made studies of building field expedient shelters from found and natural materials. Carrying materials to make shelters makes it easier. <br><br>A lawn size trash bag would take up all or most of an altoids tin. Stuffing a trashbag in pocket along with your altoids tin would add another layer to your preparation.<br><br>I put my lawn trash bag in a sandwhich size ziplock. It keeps the trash bag from unfolding and making a large mess. Since I have kids, I keep one kitchen sized and one lawn size in the same ziplock. I keep a couple of these in the front pockets of my daypacks so they are easy to find in the event of a downpour. They can be made into ponchos by punching a head sized hole in the bottom.<br><br>In my fanny pack and daypack kits, I also carry space blanket bags. They are larger than trash bags, offer the reflective qualities of a space blanket, and are easier to be seen than a black, green, or brown trash bag by rescuers.<br><br>I don't think anyone disagrees with you about the need for shelter. The issue is more of finding a portable shelter that will fit in a pocket sized kit and still leave room for other supplies as well.

I agree that having a plastic shelter is a great idea to keep available with the PSK. <br><br>I carry a Tacoma Mountain Storm Shelter tube tent in the back of my vest at all times along with some paracord. Because of the bulk it is not actually a part of my PSK but a part of my EDC.<br><br>Looking at mebrad's excellent post (could you survive for 4 weeks on your PSK?), his FIRST DAY would be much easier with a plastic tube tent or larger sheet of plastic. Then as he states subsequent days are used to improve the shelter etc. It is unlikely that a plastic tube tent will last thru a major storm or even the stresses of 4 weeks use, but I think it gets you set up with decent shelter for the first few critical days.