Devil's advocate here......The need for centerfire arms in a BOB or PSK is driven by fear and one's need to feel prepared. There's a pretty strong statement.... I know, I hear ya, "I'd rather have a gun and not need it, than need a gun a not have it".........

I'll have to agree with that, BUT, when it comes to preparing a BOB/PSK for survival situations, do you really want to lug around 20 pounds of shotgun, .45 pistol, and ammo on your back, along with real necessities, gallons of water and maybe 20 pounds of other survival stuff? And just how proficient are you with that pistol? Do you shoot once a week? Once a month? Can you hit a 3" circle at 50 feet?

Here's some simple weight comparisons of just ammo.
Five hundred rounds of:
.38 = 16+ pounds,
.45 = 24 +pounds.
.22 = 5 pounds

Think about it, small game, rabbits, fowl, squirrels, are not going to be very appetizing after being vaporized with a centerfire. And even if you cut these weights by 75% there's still a lot to carry.

IMHO, for long term survival it is worth while to become very proficient with a .22 rimfire pistol (or rifle). There's high velocity and hollow point ammo that will take larger game and work for self defense if need be. So, if you have to ditch your vehicle and make good on foot to a 72 hour or longer safe-place, leave the heavies back at home or in the car.

Discussion?

Given the weight cost of a firearm, I choose not to carry.
The money ( often $200-$500) is better spent on equipment/ training and I 'd carry extra water/ clothing in its place.

My 2 cents,

Teacher

An endless debate. Each person makes their own choices. Competance, experience, confidence, and what is at hand are all important. No one tool does everything well - and pistol is just a tool. Just as your weight example has merit if that is the sole measure of effectiveness, there are other arguements that use other measures.

As an aside, I have legally taken much small game with +P+ 45 Colt handloads that edge out 44 mag energies and find it significantly easier than with a 22rf pistol - without "damage" to the meat. There's not a significant amount of velocity difference between a 22lr and common centerfire pistol calibers (in fact, the 22 lr family has some offerings that are zippier than most). Neither has "explosive" effects on small game - that's mostly a function of velocity, and pistols are way under that threshold, even at the muzzle. The other main variables are resistance (small animals offer nil), proportion (sparrow vs rabbit vs caliber), and to a tiny extent in small game, bullet construction. A hard cast bullet or anthing jacketed is not even aware of passing thru small game.

But I don't see anything wrong with a 22 pistol and if that's where your thinking carries you, have at it - it's not a bad choice, just a choice. "If only one..." inherently carries compromise. You make a point - and there are other points - weight them (no pun intended) as you see fit for yourself.

Regards,

Tom

I prefer a .22 AND the .45. You're right... a .22 will keep your belly full, but if I've got to take a shot at a man, I care enough to send the very best... .45 via 1911... I've seen one too many guys walk right into a Ruger .22, take it away from the guy pulling the trigger, and beat him to death with it before he went down from loss of blood... think about it.

Troy

PS No I haven't seen several... one was all it took!!!

I think, again, that it all depends on the survival scenario.

IF youre leaving a city, is it because of a hurricane or is it because of civil disorder? Are you leaving in a car, or on foot? 500 rounds seems excesive except if it is a civil war, doesnt it?

There is no way I am leaving on foot. If I can't leave by automobile then I will be riding an ATV. Either way I will be able to pack way more than what I could if I were hoofing it. I am currently teetering back and forth between a scoped 30.06 and an SKS for my bugout rifle. This week I'm leaning toward the SKS... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In the Netherlands, carring a loaded gun, thats on your person (holster) is against the law. Doesn't matter if you got a license.
And although I think that the dutch laws are much to strict (even Airsoft weapons are prohibited only in the Netherlands), I think it does make some sence.
You just can't go out into a city were everybody is carrying guns like some hillbilly's.
And were do you plann to carry it for? Shooting people? I bet that if you stood in front of a person, you can't pull the trigger.
At least, I hope so....

This isn't for the people that just use it for survival situations, it's just for those, that think they are' the man' when they have a gun.

Yup Norad. SKS seems to be rugged, accurate enough, easy to load and shoot - and did I mention rugged? This is my personal, all-around favorite.

OMG.... Half of the Texas population is Hillbillies? I coulda swore dem der hillbilleeze was in Aleebama!

I put a synthetic stock on mine that saved about a pound of weight. It's black though, so I hope it doesn't look too "tactical". <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yup, carrying a gun is one of the criteria for hillbillyhood, along with makin' yer own likker and marryin' yer kin! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's what stickers are for. :P

The average handgun buying hillbilly is college educated. All concealed carry hillbilly's are certified by the FBI as good guys.

I know because I am one! <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ah, Jim, you didn't just step on toes, you jumped on them. Wearing golf cleats. Bare toes.

Guys, be nice, he's from Europe.

We've had this happen before, boys and girls. It's a matter of perception, and a flat out different world on the two sides of the Atlantic. Particularly when people are being idealistic. So let's put our wockets back in our pockets and play nice.

Yup. Yup. Yup.
I didnt want to answer him 'cause it wasnt going to be very nice either.

I can see the validity of both sides of the argument. My truck kit has a .22LR handgun and 1000rnds of ammunition; it is small, light and accurate enough to take small game. If I had to leave town my M4gery and as much case of ammunition and my .45ACP hand gun with a few hundred rounds would accompany me. If I had to venture out of foot, I would probably choose to carry my M4 and the .22LR pistol. 210 rounds of .223 is heavy, but gives me a weapon I can take larger game with provide protection close in and at a distance if needed.

A lot of people don’t think that a fire arm is a valuable survival tool, but since fire arms have been commonly available they have been carried as a tool of survival. Fire arms can be very useful for gathering food, signaling, and protection. Some tend to forget the protection aspect of survival, having a BOB well equipped and stocked on your back does you no good if someone takes it from you. Make no mistake; this isn’t a far fetched possibility. And like you said, better to have one and not need it…

Jim – Do some more research before you start calling people Hillbillies. Are there some who feel more like a man when they are carrying a gun? Sure, but the majority of the gun owners in America are law abiding, educated and thoughtful individuals. The people you will find on this forum are these gun owners, not your “Hillbillies”. I don’t judge those that choose not to carry a gun; please don’t judge those of us who choose to carry.

You can believe what the media tells you or you can discover the truth on you own; allowing law abiding citizens to bear arms makes a SAFER civilization. And, yes most people can pull the trigger when their life depends on it! It is our nature to survive, and sometimes pulling the trigger is your only chance to survive… God forbid.

Jim, Be careful here... this is as nice as I get.

Guy's, I was only trying to say that if everybody carries a gun, it would become very dangerous indeed. Thats probably the reason that it's illigal in Holland.
The expression Hillbilly was made to indicate such a situation.
It wasn't meant to offend anyone. If anyone felt himself offended, I'm sorry.
Allthough I still think that it isn't a good idea to carry a firearm in public

No offense taken JIM. Just having a little fun with you, that's all. We can agree to disagree. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

quote from JIM "Allthough I still think that it isn't a good idea to carry a firearm in public"

In the US the major studies that have been done show that in places were guns are carried, the area is safer. These studies have been done by both pro and anti gun groups here in the US. States that have issued Shall Issue conceled carry permits have seen crime go down by significant numbers. Just an FYI.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I respect it.

But I am also entitled to disagree. I have a Master's degree in engineering, and I am a "hillbilly." To me, it is just about taking responsibility. Bad people exist, and some want to hurt other people. I do not have a policeman assigned to protect my family, so that job falls on me.

Besides, firearms are just part of a specturum. You have firearms and one end. Just beside that you have swords and maces. Then, you have clubs and knives. Finally, you have large pointy sticks and rocks. If you deny a person intent on doing bad things access to firearms, they just move further down the spectrum.

OK. So we may never see eye-to-eye on this. But you are still welcome here, and no hard feelings. I will certainly respect your opinions, and just ask that you respect mine.

Yes, but that's in America. I see it from a Dutch standpoint.
They are so paranoid of weapons, that it is virtually impossible to get a license, there are so many rules that you would go crazy, and even toy weapons (Airsoft) aren't allowed. And war-used-weapons are not allowed. (m16, Mp5)
Even if I get caught carring a Leatherman, I'm in trouble.
<img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Of course I respect your opinion. And although we might not agree on this topic, maybe on other ones we do.
I certainly hope so..... <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If events forced me to BO from my home and then have to abandone my vehicle , that would probably mean that the s has truly htf . Although you may never need to protect yourself or hunt with a firearm . This is all about being prepared . There are many people " good " and "bad " that would try to take your stuff in a desperate situation. Personaly I would not want to hump around a " battle rifle " and many magazines of ammo like some people say they would . But I think it would be wise to include a large caliber handgun [ 38/357 , 9 mil. 45acp ] and if possible a rifle or shotgun . A 22 is a handy tool to have . But , If you decided to have only one gun , I just don't think a 22 is a good choice . The weight of the ammo would be a burden for sure . But , I think the pro's of having a larger caliber firearm definately outweigh the con's . My personal choices of firearms include a 38/357 revaolver , 38/357 lever rifle and a 12ga. shotgun . It would depend on the situation as to how much I would try to carry . I'd say I would try to take at least 125 rounds of 38 , 125 rounds 357 and 25 rounds of 12ga. if I had to BO on foot . If the wieght proved to be too much I would try to stash 1 or 2 of the guns somewhere that I might recover them later . I would always keep at least 1 gun . It would depend on my situation as to wich gun I would hang on to . Either the 12ga or the revolver .

Jim, you are a goat among the sheep. Feel sorry for them.

I would suppose that crime in the Netherlands is zero then? Nobody committing crimes against humanity? I don't read news from your part of the world, but bad people are everywhere and as others have mentioned...you take away guns and people just move to the next available weapon.

Oklahoma has concealed carry and I love it. If carrying a loaded weapon makes you a Hillbilly....guilty as charged. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I choose to carry a firearm so that the other equipment I am carrying isn't taken by someone else.

Although one of my posts wasn't that 'popular', I hope we can all just get on with other posts and stop with replying on this one.

I know that I stepped on some toes, but it wasn't my intention to judge people or offend them.

And although I still have my opinion about the subject, I'm not going to commend on it much longer and I do respect your opinion.

Off course sorry to the guy who posted this topic. It became a whole other subject, didn't it?? [color:"red"] [/color] [color:"red"] [/color] <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />