Anybody have ideas about what can be used on an airplane as an improvised weapon? I have considered using my belt or keys. And I am not talking about hijacking the plane but overtaking a hijacker or other nutjob.

You won't get many replies. A thread like this was recently closed and locked on another forum.

The moderator explained that the FBI monitors his site and many others. He says knows this because he knows someone there who told him.

Should someone actually come up with a great idea, The Powers That Be will know about it right away and promptly have it banned.

Also, should The Powers That Be decide the forums' threads contain material others should not read, a word in right ear can cause your ISP to shut your forums down with little or no notice.

The moderator didn't want any trouble and didn't want to cause any trouble for his ISP, so he closed the thread.

Freedom of speech is a fragile thing. You are not allowed to yell "Fire!" in a movie theater. Topics such as yours have become taboo in our post-9/11 world, especially on the Web, where privacy is an illusion.

Since it hasn't been locked I'll chip in. The first thing that comes to mind is 3-4 socks stuffed one inside the other, and filled with as many key sets and as much pocket change as I can scrounge up from other passengers. Think of the old expression "looks like he got hit in the face with a bag of nickels" and you'll know what I mean. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

While I'm not 100% sure I'd believe that the FBI looks at these, you couln't convince me that the TSA does NOT look at them.

Anything showing up "too many" ( >=0, maybe? ) times in this type of conversation will soon be on the banned list, even if they aren't on the official ones. Just like those dangerous iPods that got seized last year in Novermber and December- not on the list, but some inspectors felt they were dangerous.

Sneak into the toilet, rip out the toilet seat and use it as a boomerang - take out multiple targets with one throw !
<img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
sorry couldn't resist ...

ok, I missed the IPOD discussion, why did a simple MP3 player get banned or confiscated???

Yeah,
I thought about how this post might sound after I posted it but it was too late then. This is not a topic that I spend alot of time on, I'd rather be outdoors having fun. But, since the tapes of the United Flight 93 have been on the air and hearing these people trying to take out the terrorists it got me to thinking.

Osama may not have intended it, but the biggest casualty in 911 was not the 2000+ dead. It was the right to free speech, privacy & the huge taxpayer expenditures on security.

I think it is a given now that passengers and crew will fight back. I also think that the various government agencies (DHS, FBI, etc.) are well aware that this is now the case, and plan for it. That is why I doubt a topic like this would get very much, if any, scrutiny.

One thing they could never ban is hands, feet, and teeth. Maybe a good self defense class is the answer. Fighting skills can come in handy in a lot more locations/situations than an airplane, and it's good exercise too.

There was a thread on this earlier on these forums. A couple of things here... improvising a weapon for self defense isn't the same as asking how to smuggle on bomb making materials or a multiple-target weapon (i.e. gun). In most SD situations, something to throw for distraction or blunt impact is the way to go, and it's not going to help you take over a jet.

This is certainly covered under free speech. I'm sick of people rolling over and saying "lock this" or "can't respond" because something is sensitive. Please, we have a right to defend ourselves, and to discuss how to do so. Moving it to a plane or train or bus makes ZERO difference. The only one is in your head because all of the FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) generated largely by those who shouldn't be doing so. Our own lovely security departments determined recently that every single airport they tested (21 if I'm not mistaken) allowed bomb making materials aboard. So, the illusion here is not only one of privacy of what you post (either here or between friends on chat or email) but also that you are safe in the air because the TSA takes away your multi-tool and tweezers.

Fear of exercising your right to speak freely about something that could save your life seems rather silly doesn't it? The NSA was just caught red handed piggybacking on all of AT&T's traffic - worldwide. This includes traffic coming from other providers like worldcom, etc. And you can be absolutely certain that AT&T isn't the only one. Every electronic bit is carefully screened at Fort Meade. Our privacy is a complete illusion, so saying that we shouldn't speak on forums doesn't make sense if you are saying it somewhere you think is private!

So, in the name of free speech, there are many ways to improvise defensive weapons. Fire extinguishers, blackjacks (socks with coins or heavy objects), thrown full coke cans, thrown heavy bags, using a meal tray as a shield, golf clubs, etc. I don't see how any of those items would help a would-be terrorist, but they could certainly help crew and passengers take down a threatening person or two.

The TSA and airlines need to have Air Marshals on every flight, hardened cockpits with armed and trained pilots (many are ex military anyway). They need to screen ALL luggage, checked or carry-on. Make sure all bags are run over by chemical sensors and dogs. Screen every single employee carefully and maintain rock solid security procedures for the INTERNAL employees (where the real danger lies)! All of the money necessary to do the real work is funnelled into our current system meant to provide an illusion of safety while (intentionally or unintentionally) harassing law-abiding citizens. Not only is it your right to talk about this, it's should be brought up more often and certainly brought to the attention of your elected officials.

The quest to deny terrorists tools to take over an airplane is a noble one, but one of the side effects is that the average passenger is severely restricted as well. We are less able to "retake" an aircraft now than we were on 9-11.

Another unfortunate side effect is that it's not "ok" to discuss issues like this these days

Alas, that's the way it is now... they've burned the village to save it.

I'm on your side. Everything you're saying makes sense to me.

As for this other forum, it was basically, "Free speech is dead, get used to it. And lower the blinds while you're busy being quiet."

It was, I admit, a little freaky. But the moderator did it, and he said the closing of the thread was not open for discussion.

-- Craig

If that's an old expression, how come I've never heard it? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

-- Craig

I would like to register my utter disgust with The Amercan Authorities refusal to formally recognise the bravery of the passengers of ' 93. If the rules govening such awards do not at present permit such an award your President should, by Presidential decree, change them. It is sufficient that they tried, and in the doing, died. An award of The Medal of Freedom, to be entombed in their memorial would be appropriate. It is the duty of every American ( and everyone else for that matter) to resist hijackers by any and all means. Even at the sacrifice of their lives. If the FBI or anyone else wants to take umbridge at the above, be my guest.

For once I think they actually got it right. Take a look at this. A National Memorial is a pretty big deal (and richly deserved.)

" If that's an old expression, how come I've never heard it?"

I may be wrong but I've got it in my head that Groucho said it..... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am glad that someone has got the Honour, Courage & Decency to raise a memorial to them. It looks simple and dignified - as such memorials should be. And it's not taboo to publicly remember and salute such courage.

Becuase the crew at the gate can confiscate anything they feel is potentially dangerous, reguardless of the written list says you CAN have, as per the disclaimer at the bottom of said list.

Basically, if they don't want you have it, you can hand it over, or miss the flight.

The decision may have been made for him by the host. ISPs usually have a clause that says if there is something distasteful but not illegal, they can ask you to remove it or cancel your contract

I hear ya... Totally had my soapbox on there. I hope people feel the need to exercise the right of free speech more often. It's getting to be a bit of a scary thing when kids in school don't understand the Bill or Rights or haven't ever heard of it.

I used to fly a lot and one thing that always surprised me was that i was allowed to keep in my carry-on luggage a laptop security cable. This is a 5 foot length of 1/8" aircraft cable with convenient handles at each end...Think about it..

I was thinking along the same lines.

-- Craig

Cool. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

They -- I mean we -- usually don't get too hung up on ceremony. The point is, to get out there and do it. The President has already said, in much the same words, we ARE the ground troops.

We are the front line. We are the first line of defense. We are expected to be brave.

We are not going to be rewarded, and should not hope to be rewarded, for doing that which is expected of us.

-- Craig

If you have to think about it, you have fewer "agression issues", as one of my old sheep teachers described it in grade school.

REALITY CHECK:
ANYTHING can be used by a weapon by someone with sufficent need. Anything. It might be a challange for a sheep, but it shouldn't be for us.

Well the entire idea behind arming yourself is to learn what the hijacker is armed with.

There is nothing that you can have on you (on the plane) that would be better than a gun. If hijacker has one, either you get shot or stray bullet decompresses the cabin. And before someone tells me that it’s worth to get shot in order to save the souls of all people on board and that they will do it: ok you are right but it is easy to speculate from your chair at home than walking the walk when stuff happens. Now the bomb scenario: well there may be explosives or may not but if it looks like a bomb it should be assumed it is a bomb. Not much you can do to take out a person like that.

That leaves us with person armed with knife, cutter, ice pick, bottle, club or seat belt...

You for your defense also have wine bottle, keys on the lanyard, rolled magazine, flashlight (my favorite)... Now the thing is that you have to make the point to have the weapons available.

What you have to understand is how the attacker armed with a specific weapon works. Understand the basics of close proximity combat. Learn when to keep the distance, and when to close in. Learn advantages and disadvantages of weapons as well as the strike zones (paper club: distance, knife: close combat). Also you have to understand what vital zones to protect when going against an attacker armed with certain weapon. Best thing to really describe it would be prison fighting where men armed with basic stuff inflict huge amount of damage.

But most important sit tight, analyze the situation, keep you eyes open because most of the time the most patient man wins. Also watch out for marshals those guys don’t mess around and are hardcore.

<SIGH> I am not going to lock this thread-yet. I have deleted a few posts that violated forum decorum. Doug and I honour free speach as long as it doesn't violate those simple rules. While speach should be free, the running of this site is not and Doug has a reasonable expectation of his investment respected.

"ANYTHING can be used by a weapon by someone with sufficent need. Anything. It might be a challange for a sheep, but it shouldn't be for us."

As the hippies of my day used to say, "RIGHT ON!"

A couple I used to know who homeschooled had a game that they used for their kids, called "What If..." It was a spur-of-the-moment question on how they would handle a given situation.

The trick is to get used to thinking about what you might do in any type of similar situation. Use it to kill time. It won't cover everything, but it will help you learn to think on your feet.

Our politicians have done their best to limit our rights, but they haven't put a lock on our brains.

Sue

One point Ladies and Gentlemen. If we are considering what if? as a 9.11 scenario be aware that you will provoke the hijacker(s) into a self-destruct sequence.

Even though jihadists don't seem to be the sharpest tools in the shed, I just don't see them trying for a 9-11 takeover-style attack again. They now face armed air marshals (on some flights), reinforced cockpit doors, and a far more belligerent passenger list. And aren't some pilots armed as well now? A bomb in the baggage compartment is the real threat.

Yes we have armed pilots now, they aqre known as Fedreal Flight Deck Officers (FFDO).

20

Ah, now there I fear you are wrong. You are making a classic mistake here. These "jihadists" are highly intelligent, dedicated, devout muslims who are sacrificing their lives for what they consider to be the noblest of causes - the service of Allah and the defence of His Faith. It is an ugly fact that their faith is being hijacked & manipulated by O.B.L. and his minions for secular power. O.B.L. wants to set up a pan- Islamic state govened by Shara Law in strict accordance with the word of the Prophet. As determined by his Mullah's. (give you one guess as to which Mullah's) There is of course no room for dissent and anyone who dares to argue is defying Allah and must ofcourse be put to death. There are as many factions in Islam as there are in any other faith. The idea of religious tolerance and freedom of consiance( yes, I know I spelt that wrong) & speech, which is one of the cornerstones of The Free World is, of course, anthima and must be destroyed, along with all the Islamic sects that have taken sanctuary amonst us. It's one of the oddity's of religion that the more intelligent and devout the person, the easier they are to manipulate, unfortunately. If they were stupid, this fight would already be over. They ain't and it isn't.

"If we are considering what if? as a 9.11 scenario be aware that you will provoke the hijacker(s) into a self-destruct sequence."

"Provoke" as opposed to what they've BEEN doing for the last 4.5 years? Or do you mean non-Islamic hijackers that just intend to commit suicide and take as many people with them as they can? Well, *I* don't do dumb and helpless if I can possibly avoid it.

Sue

I am simply making sure that everyone understands what the stakes are. In the best case scenario the hijacker(s) are overwhelmed in short order by passengers and crew. In the worsecase scenario when it becomes apparent that the hijackers are intent on another 9.11. If that happens you may be faced with choice of sitting still and dying or making them blow up or crash the aircraft. Personally I would, if I was the pilot, at the first hint of trouble, fly the aircraft at its maximum speed out to sea so that I can crash it into the deepest patch of ocean I can find. I would do this because I would take it as a given that they have a bio-weapon, chemical weapon, dirty bomb, plutonium dispersion weapon or whatever on board. And yes, your choices suck. The "I don't do dumb and helpless " bit is a family joke by the way.

"...highly intelligent, dedicated, devout muslims".

Devout they may be, but if they are anything like this buffoon then they don't scare me. And that goes double for his pal Richard Reid. He couldn't even light his shoe on fire for crapssake.

Maybe you are right. Maybe they are just stupid enough to try another plane takeover. We'll see what happens then.

According to my wife, my socks are a weapon by themselves after a few hours. Maybe it's time for some Odor Eaters <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's a "crappy" idea. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Privacy is an illusion anyway, and "freedom of speech" is a misnomer. But at least we don't have rocket and mortar attacks in the streets. Lesser of the evils? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

But as a song quipped, "when you choose the lesser of the evils, you always get something less and something evil" <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Even with all the problems though, I'm still proud to be an American, although the opinions of my government do not necessarily reflect the opinions of myself or my family <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The Bill of what?? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If it was an ISP forcing the shut down, I think if it were me, I'd say something like, "Due to forces beyond my control, I'm shutting down this thread and I can't discuss it further than that"

Then again, I don't know all the details surrounding the situation.

The only problem with a self defense class, that only meets once, or maybe for a short amount of time is that people will forget what they learn. It is a rare case that they will practice the techniques on a regular basis after the class. Of course any knowledge and experience in this area is better than none (unless you know just enough to get yourself into trouble) but to truly be effective, one must be able to respond without thinking. As Bruce Lee said, holding his fist up, "I don't hit...it hits all by itself".

Still, in Korea, tae kwon do is part of the school curriculum, like P.E. is in the States. I think it would be a good thing if US schools adopted a similar curriculum.

To quote the immortal words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"

You can follow the teachings of Allah, or Buddha or God or Isis or nobody at all. I will do what is right for me, and if my religion bumps your religion's elbow, I'll humbly say, "Excuse me please" and go on my way in peace. I won't judge you and I hope you won't judge me. Maybe our kids can go over to each other's houses to play together. They while they are doing that, we can sit down with some coffee or tea and discuss how we all want to be happy, and maybe what that means to us. We might see that we have more in common than we think. And the things we don't have in common? There's no need for us to fight about it. Just remember that we all have the right to live and be happy and enjoy watching our children grow and learn. And if we do our jobs raising those children, as best as we can, then maybe by the time my grandchildren are playing with your grandchildren, they'll come sit on our laps and ask, "What was war like?"

the guys in the plane were just servants it was their PTB that made the plan. Any way here's a thread I started about exactly the same thing

If everyone had that attitude we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place! My personal experience of many, although I am relieved to say not all, religious people is that they are far less tolerant and willing to forgive than most none religious people. Probley something to do with the "God loves me because I follow His One True Way" syndrome. I wont tell you what I think about that or what, if given the chance, I would do about it....

I think that you had better reread that mate. This bozo is very serious. He failed only because Allah did not wish to see the taking of innocent life. Had Allah decreed otherwise, he would have succeeded. And no, I would not execute him.

Yeah, OK... good luck with that one... most schools don't even do ROTC any more, and you want them to teach hand to hand... good idea, but like I said... good luck with it <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Troy

NOT kill him??? It's more like time to "kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out". Sorry if this offends, but touchy-feely psycho-babble isn't going to cover this... Draconian measures are called for, and if you're not willing to help fix the problem, then stay out of the way.

Troy

PS Sorry for the rant, but there's just too much crap rolling in these days, and it appears that NOBODY wants to do ANYTHING about it <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />