O.K. We know there is no true "survival knife', only appropriate knives for the many tasks we may face. There are various military fighting/utility knives and a few aircrew knives. I have been able to find some information and will be posting modifications later if anyone is interested. The classic A/F survival knife is currently produced by Ontario and Camillus. Both are 1095 carbon steel. Ontario has a Rockwell of 50-53, with a 30 rockwell tang that becomes harder from the heel of the blade to the edge. Camillus is harder, with 53-58 rockwell in the blade. The Camillus' clip point is deeper than the Ontario and more prone to potential breakage. It also has a treated leather handle against rot. The british offer the Mod4 knife. This has a uniform rockwell of 52 in a carbon/manganese steel. At 1/4" uniform thick and a full scale tang you do not break it. I will describe usefull modifications if there is interest ( and I get Barry paid and a A/F sent!)

Do tell more...

Tom, Some of the modicfications we made in the Coast Guard with the A/F; The upper guard with the two holes is a big neon sign saying "tie me to a shaft and throw me at that sleeping bear." We ground it off almost flush with the heel of the blade (leave a little to keep the unit secure.)This also gives better purchase for choking up on detail work and using the "saw." The leather rots in the jungle or gets eaten by rodents in the arctic. We found "dullcoat" ,a clear spraypaint used in modelmaking gave a good secure finish easily renewed. You can also wrap paracord as shown in the Ranger Rick pamphlets. That sawback can be improved by grinding the teeth in an offset pattern. This is a MAJOR undertaking and makes the sawback more vulnurable if splitting wood with a billet. Speaking of billets; the rattail tang can break. I think people inadvertently grip to hard, setting up enough cant or lateral torque to snap this weak area. Just hold the knife enough to steady it, much like the relaxed grip of a handgun. The hammer butt is a good hammer. Just remember it is threaded to the tang and respect it's limits. You can drill ( very carefully) a lanyard hole offset from the thread. If you must have a lanyard , again refer to Ranger Ricks wraparound illustration.The sheath has a nice pouch with a lousy stone. Lose the stone and slip a metal match or cut down magnesium bar in there. A paracord tie down or even duct tape helps secure the knife. The snaps won't win any prizes. I prefered the metal tipped version.These knives are easily dulled in the field, but are equally capable of extreme sharpness with a little work. I saw one scary sharp blade disembowel it's own sheath, so get the metal reinforced version!

The MOD4 This knife dates from 1987 and was made initially by Wilkinson Sword. WIlkinson exists in name only and the quality has fallen somewhat in finish. Fortunately, this thing is a brute and there really is a knife in there. It is frankly overpriced in the USA. It comes so dull only the lettering indicates the right way to hold one to a neophyte. The "sheath" is actually left handed, and unless your in this minority, THROW IT AWAY QUICKLY! Make, or have made a decent sheath. There is a military and civilian version. The military has a black fiber handle and the civilian wood. Both can be shaped for a better grip ( but not much.) The blade itself is a deep bellied slight drop point. The British seem to have an affinity for large machete or parang type blades ala' Lofty Wiseman. My second MOD4 came from Barry @ Blueline with his nice work at putting a decent edge on it. It can be done, and I intend to put a even finer edge on the point and curve for fine work, leaving the straight edge for chopping. The double guard is best left "as is" two small welds top and bottom secure it to the blade. Attempting to remove the top will only weaken the attachment. At 7", the 1/4" blade is to big for the small knife and to small for the really big big knife advocates. I've split wood with it easier than any other, hacked out of a truck camper in short order and split the pelvic girdle on a dead steer ( another good use for bandannas-phew!) If you find yourself with one add a small knife- or two for weight distribution! At 1 1/2 lbs. the MOD4 is a handfull! Both the MOD4 and A/F knives have phosphate or parkerized finishes. I prefer this to the baked on epoxys as used by Cold Steel. Both can eventually wear or chip off. The phosphates at least do not inhibit initial sharpening.

Chris - Interesting! Thanks. You would not believe how many folks ask me about those types of knives... and they sure beat some of the alternatives. I'll pass on your mods and tips. <br><br>I think I mentioned a "survival knife" my wife gave me many years ago, but it's a 'nother animal from the "issue" styles - and it's been a surprisingly really good knife. I think it has what is called a "saber grind", so it can be a beast to re-sharpen, but it holds an edge exceptionally well. I could do without the "sawback" - but I seem to recall that you recently hacked up a truck cap with one as a simulation of going thru the side of a downed aircraft. I can't think of anything simple to do to eliminate the sawback on mine... so it remains - mostly as an irritant when splitting wood.<br><br>I'm still "playing" with an SRK I bought last year - so far, I like it. Don't like the crinkly powder coat finish so I may strip that off. The handle is quite comfy and functional, 'tho I wonder how it will hold up over the years. Best part is the blade - good old carbon steel and thick as a prybar, it really takes an edge. A keeper for sure, even tho I feel compelled to make mods to it. It was (and is) as sharp a knife from the factory as I have seen - of the 5 Cold Steel knives I've purchased, I will say that thier claims of sharp-out-of-the-box are not exagerated.<br><br>A young man (one of our "extra sons") came by the other evening to show me his recently purchased KA-BAR - alongside his grandfather's USMC KA-BAR from WWII. Other than the powdercoat vs parkerizing and a really minute change in the "blood groove" (can't recall the proper name for it), I was impressed with the faithfulness of the replication. The factory edge was not very noteworthy - in fact, it was somewhat uneven, having been "sharpened" a little more on one side than the other. However, a few minutes with a diamond hone showed that it is going to take a good edge. For the money, that has got to be a great value in a large utility blade.<br><br>Have you seen/used a BK&T CMBK7? Those look like a great bargain - if the knife is any good. Cheap enough to stow in a BoB with a good coat of RIG on it. The Campanion also looks like it would be a dandy economical utility/survival knife. Have you tried out either of these two knives?<br><br>Keep the tips coming, please. BTW, you ever port out of Kodiak? We love visiting there - USCG treats us like royalty. Been going there occasionaly for ~25, 26 years, and it's always the same... nice folks.<br><br>Tom

Tom , Kodiak Airstation was my first duty station. I was married in the Orthodox church run by the monks of Saint Hermans! Have you made it over to Wood(ie) Island just off the harbor? On the seaward side is a natural arch with a few spruce trees growing on top and a giant, half buried russian fishing net float to the side. Barring erosion, the initials "CK& HD " are still on it . I had the SRK. It is a great knife excepting that lousy powdercoat. The current hard shell sheath takes paracord well and you can slip a small flat diamond hone inside. People have really abused them, and report some failure in the handle material. The Falknivens are very similar, excepting the Moran edge ( which I cannot maintain) and a small extension of the tang for a hammer. The whole Becker line is interesting. I've put my fingerprints on a few but little else. The K-BAR / Marine knife is a classic in it's own right. The blood groove is not to prevent suction from preventing withdrawal. That's barracks mythology and cannot happen. Actually, the forging of a groove is an ancient method of compressing the structure for greater strength in softer or more open grained metals. I think we have to do that BIG KNIFE review Doug mentioned in his article.

>>Have you made it over to Wood(ie) Island just off the harbor?<<<br><br>Chris, I know it, but I don't recall that I have set foot on it.. pretty neat recollections you have. When were you there?<br><br>Tom

>>I think we have to do that BIG KNIFE review Doug mentioned in his article.<<<br><br>I second that! May I suggest that we pool some suggestions for evaluation criteria and then let you and Doug decide how much, if any of those suggestions you apply? (OK; I just made that suggestion...) <br><br>Yeah, I check things out on the various knife groups, but MOST of those folks have a different twist on things - even the "survival" discussions are replete with knives-as-weapons chat - while interesting on several levels to me, that's almost irrelevent to what my interests are regarding knives - I can make most of THOSE observations/conclusions by myself almost at a glance. <br><br>I'm much more interested in the usefulness (or lack thereof) as I imagine would be evaluated HERE - actual tests out "in the world". <br><br>Besides, who would write up the test results on "knife-as-a-weapon" evaluations? The winner or the loser of the test? Hmmmm...

Here are some off-the-cuff general ideas on “Big Knife” evaluations:<br><br>1. Presume nothing. For example, I would have knee-jerked a CS LTC Kukri as not suitable for meal preparations if I had not seen my son casually and efficiently use his for that as if that’s what he used it for all the time…<br><br>2. Establish “types” of uses or categories and within them establish specific tasks. Be creative/innovative when evaluating specific tasks – for example, a Machax may split modest sized billets of wood just fine when it is used like a hatchet, whereas an SRK may need to be whacked on the spine with a second billet of wood… my idea is, predefine the desired result, not the method used to attain the result. I could care less how well the SRK does as a hatchet – all I care about is how well does it split wood, what method worked with that particular knife, and how well did it hold up… OTOH, just because a Machax looks like it ought to be employed with a mighty swing… maybe it splits best when held cross-grain and whacked on the spine…<br><br>3. Either report a range of “street prices” for a given blade or categorize the blades into pre-defined ranges like “Up to $50 US”, “$51US - $100US”, etc.<br><br>4. Don’t bother too much with technical descriptions – those are easy enough to dig up elsewhere and may even be prejudicial to the testing (everyone knows that 440 is not as good as A34, right? Right? And besides, drop points are superior to spear points because…) All I care about is how it performs. The rest is only of academic interest…<br><br>5. Evaluate a number of stipulated carry options – factory and otherwise. How good or bad are the factory sheaths/aftermarket sheaths (this is inflammatory if left subjective, so let’s come up with some objective TESTS rather than inspections/conclusions) Lord knows we all have opinions on THAT topic… “Just the facts, Ma’am…”<br><br>6. “Sharp” is a whole category of its own. If new, out-of-the-box sharpness is of more than passing interest. Does the powdercoat interfere with getting/keeping an edge? Does the edge tend to chip or fold or wear or… This is an area where a bit of technical reporting is in order - most of us probably would cringe at trying to resharpen a Moran edge – and the factory grind should be used to pre-determine what method of sharpening will be used for a particular knife, because I do not relish having to completely re-shape a grind in the field with whatever I have on me (having done that, I’m sure of this…) Just as a suggestion, stick with something like duo-folds for the abrasive type sharpening efforts – stock a XC-C and F-XF combo and report what works best… we should be able to take it from there…<br><br>Think of all the different categories of tasks that a survival knife may be expected to be called on to perform and post. A few more will probably manifest themselves after posting…<br><br>Long term testing is a separate topic because… it takes a long time.<br><br>Consider using some additional test persons from here – Chris shouldn’t get to have ALL the fun by himself… (no, I am NOT asking to be a guinea p, er, tester – already have too many opinions to be real objective) I can think of some folks here that I bet would do a great job helping out with real world tests…<br><br>Gotta run up to near Willie’s neck of the woods for the weekend, so adios for now – hope I come back to read a lot of (better than mine) suggestions…<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom<br>

Always an interesting topic for discussion. Without getting into specifics, I know that I personally can weed out at least half of the knives I see at first glance, just on design considerations. Everyone's criteria may be different, but I suspect their ratio of first-glance rejections is at least that. Most reviews, however, ignore a lot of fairly important design points to concentrate on materials and construction.<br><br>Much of the divisive conversation about survival knives seems to hinge on whether it should be useable as a weapon. That derives directly from the anticipated survival scenarios, and this gets into much broader philosophical territory.<br><br>One small point that I seldom see addressed in reviews- I personally dislike knives with asymmetrical blades and symmetrical handles. If it matters which way the blade is facing (pretty much anything but a dagger), I feel pretty strongly that you should be able to tell by feel, without thinking, how it's oriented. I don't mean to offend anyone, but military knives commonly fail on that point. Maybe it's just me.

...I was just in here to shutdown the computer before hitting the road...<br><br>Sounds like you and I agree on the points you made. I also like & agree with the additional comment you made about symmetrical grips...<br><br>Hmmm - no offense taken and none intended - but your slip may be showing just a bit - how about we agree on not liking symmetrical grips on asymmetrical blades? Except for a "classic" Ka-Bar, and excluding some special purpose knives of the stabbing/thrusting ilk, I have not handled very many "military knives" that are indeterminate to the feel for orientation. Most, regardless of age, have an asymmetrical grip and/or asymmetrical guard/pommel configurations. <br><br>I don't collect the durn things, but there are a variety of "specimens" in the house that range in age from ~125 years old to current issue and from several countries - none have "orientation indifferent" grips. Actually, all but one of the ones I have are asymmetrical, and that one is no-mistaking orientation because of guard and balance. In my *limited* experience, most of those indifferent knives seem to be civilian-market knives aimed at Rambo wannabees to some degree. YMMV, of course, and I have not paid a lot of attention to that as those knives are generally not of "general" interest to me.<br><br>I *really* have to hit the road now...<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom<br><br>

I was billeted to Kodiak Airstation right out of Bootcamp in 1973 into early 1975. I think a big knife test willl need group participation. The sheer number out there is overwhelming. We had such good fun and insights from the GREAT CONDOM TEST. As for symmetrical handles? I was just up feeding the horses. My utility Mora slipped into the baling twine. Instead of the quick "twang" of parted string the lousy bale lifted up and fell on me. I had the knife upside down ( actually, right side up out of habit, but upside down for my reverse stroke):O( I pulled out my gift spyderco from Ron and taught that alfalfa who was boss!

Of course, no offense either way… at least, I don’t think my ego is tied up with my knives… but I also don’t think my Freudian slip was showing. I think I probably just expressed myself badly, probably from trying too hard keep it neutral. This subject is a minefield of egoes and flamebait.<br><br>There’s some disconnect here somewhere though… I guess I don’t know what military knives you’re referring to that orient themselves well in the hand. What I had in mind when I wrote that phrase was of course the Ka-Bar, but also the variations of the USAF “pilot’s survival” knife, all US bayonets since WWII, and the EOD knives… in fact, I can’t think of a US issue knife offhand that doesn’t have a symmetrical handle. Certainly, I concede that many knives from other countries’ armies are better in this regard, as are older US military knives… but then, I tend to think that many older designs are more functional than newer ones, when dealing with such a basic implement. <br><br>In any case, I don’t have anything in particular against military knives. I’m one of those that happen to think that usefulness as a weapon is a good thing in a survival tool- always keeping in mind that any bulky, heavy item that doesn’t actually get carried is of no use for any purpose. I respect the (often-expressed) opinions of those that think that anything resembling a weapon has nothing at all to do with survival, but since many, many times more humans are killed by other humans than by the elements or any non-human animal on the planet, I’ll stick with my opinion for the time being.<br><br>Sounds like Chris is also becoming a convert to the asymmetrical handle concept.. :-)<br>

That illustrates a good point. While I think it's desirable for a handle shape to convey how the blade is oriented by feel (preferably without thought), it's also desirable that the shape of the handle not make the knife awkward to use with the edge either up or down. Sometimes, in illustration of the need for an edge-up hold, I hear an example cited that has something to do with sentry removal and throats... ahem... but bales of hay will do. :-)<br><br>The Mora illustrates another point- I understand that the Nordic folks make it a point of pride to be able to safely handle a knife who's design makes no attempt at all to keep the hand from slipping forward onto the blade, but, personally, I'd rather have the design help out in that regard. A younger version of me sliced open a hand pretty badly that way on a Japanese aikuchi with no guard.. I tried to puncture something with the point, encountered more resistance than I expected, was holding it too lightly, my hand slipped forward.. it was all too fast to react to... and after dealing with lots of impressively large blood stains the lesson stuck... such knives make me nervous.<br>

My small knife collection is turning me into the movie character Edward Scissorhands! Actually, the scandinavians are producing many knives with guards, or ergonomic handles with at least a guardlike handle. My friend @www.Ragweedforge has both displayed online. In actual practice the very traditional flaired pommel puukkos are strictly draw knives, or you push against that flaired pommel with the palm of your hand. With hands clumsy in mittens or cold this sytem works well. My current philosphy is based on a good all around knife that wont break, soldiers through most tasks adequately without biting the hand that oils it, and my collection of specialized knives for measured work done at leisure. I figure ill egress the crashed sailplane with my MOD4, Kill the charging elephant seal with the falkniven, build an igloo with the finnish lueko and then skin and butcher the seal with my inuit ulu. When my sleeping bag zipper freezes ill cut my way out with the spyderco, then repair it with the SAK after refreshing myself with a can of fruit juice opened with my P38.

Whatever - I can tell which way is "up" on ALL the military fixed blade knives I have around here with my eyes closed. That was my point. Sometimes you and I can coax a spark off each other's posts <shrug> no big deal. Let's move on to more productive discussion - like Chris getting started on a "big knife" review <grin>.

>>>Gotta run up to near Willie’s neck of the woods for the weekend, so adios for now – <<<<br><br>Yikes! I wish I had read this earlier.. I would have gone on full alert! <br><br>Were you camping or running errands?

Extended family stuff - didn't have time or I would have given you a shout - I'll try to meet the next time I'm up your way.

Just as well, I was busy doing the "soccer shuttle" most of the day.

Somebody needs to write a standard for testing and then everybody on the forum test their own knife against the standard. When done, email the results to Chris and let him post them. Sorry Chris, your the most likely candidate for the job.<br><br>Regards<br>Bruce G.<br>Texas

Well, I'm sorry, but if all you guys are going to do is continue to make cutting remarks, I am going to quit reading.......

Sorry Robb, We get your point. Things were getting a little dull on the forum, so I threw this post out to see if it would stick.

Stop! This is madness! ROFL!<br><br>On a serious note - Seems like a lot of folks really like Fallkniven blades (here and on the knife forums). You have an A1 or F1 or ? Looks to me as if they have the same sort of grip material that I'm not too enamored of on the SRK and some others. You reported that some abus, er, users of the SRK have reported "handle failures", IIRC. What's the deal? Would the Fallkniven products possibly exhibit similar problems over a long term / extreme useage?<br><br>Feel free to expand this, but my question is aimed specifically at those knives using "rubberlike" grip materials.<br><br>TIA,<br><br>Tom

Tom, I upgraded to the A1 from the SRK. I wanted a stainless blade for all environments, the extended tang hammer and no more epoxy to chip off or gum my hones. As I understand it, the "rubber" handles are susceptable to various solvents and extreme impact. Unless you drown your blade in oil, get doused with aviation fuel or beat on the handle I see no problem. I am slowly learning to maintain the Moran edge. I became familiar with the knife, but reserve it for emergency use, much like my Sparklite in my OH OH kit . Falknivens are available at considerable discount from -www.discountknives.com, and Barry may stock them.

Robb,<br><br>STOP IT. You sound like a lawyer again.**<br><br>**My wife's favorite conterargument to me. Also the the only thing known to totally confound her brother. Now I know why she says it: it feels great, it's a universal counterargument, & the other person is left with nothing to say -- since what he said was OK in the first place, well-reasoned, & not at all legalistic; what else can he say?<br><br>ROFL.<br><br>John<br><br>

You guys need to hone your writting skills.

Bill, Are you be-whittling us?

Chris<br><br>If you like the A1 you might want to take a look at the SOG line. They have a blade (that is called something like "pentagon" or "government agent" or something like that) that has a profile very close to the A1, same grippy handle, built like a rock, and for less money, too.<br><br>Remember, if you find something you like, buy 2 because when you lose or wear out the 1st one, they won't make them anymore . . .

After going through this whole post, I am a little confused as to where we are going with this. <br><br>I am looking for a good all-around small knife, doesn't have to be a folder, but has to be less than $100 Cdn ($60US?). I would prefer to have something small that could both hang around my neck and go on my belt. I've seen the Columbia River Knife and Tool (CRKT) K.I.S.S. knife and it appeals to me; however, no one I've talked to can give me a good feeling about it. I don't know if they even make them anymore. I saw it in a friend's store about 3 years back.<br><br>Does anyone have any comments or suggestions for something like what I've described?<br><br>Ironbird

www.crkt.com I don't know which K.I.S.S. you saw, but here is everything they currently offer. They make an excellent product. There are two caveats. First, it is a skeleton type knife. Will you be faced with cold conditions that may make freezing to your hand possible? Second the neck carry utilises paracord. This is dangerous if you become tangled in anything. The static and dynamic strength of paracord extends to vertebrae. Do not overlook the excellent Grohman/ Russell Bird and Trout knife. This is a small package and will keep those Loony's in Canada ;O) Im fond of the various Scandinavian knives, but they aren't neccessarily the best choice. I know the Canadian wilderness instructor Mors Kochanski uses simple Moras. They are sharp, cheap and work well as neck knives or on a belt. Some models are available with guards. I buy from www.ragweedforge.com All of the above knives fall well under100 CD. The neck carry is a very old and convenient method, favored by Inuit and Voyageurs, but disliked by Louis Riel in the final stretch.

A.G.Russell sells a Camillius Cuda Arclite neck knife in D 2 steel for $50 US. It uses a "breakaway" chain instead of paracord. The skeleton handle can be wrapped with paracord. This should address CK's most appropriate concerns. _________________________________________________ Proverbs 21:19

I am a huge fan of CRKT fixed blades. The stiff kiss is the best ultralight backpack knife I know of. It's silly light but more robust than a light weight folder and has a long enough blade for cutting bread, fruit, and spreading things. The CRKT F4 kneck knife is my new favorite knife. I bought them from my local store for 14.99 each. I made a custom Kydex sheath for one which has a removeable ferrocerium flint( from Hoods Woods). I think this would be a very ideal small kit knife. It's size is slightly larger than the Gerber LST yet much stronger.

Dumb question time<br>What difference would a left handed sheath make. I've just bought one of these knives and just assumed that it was a generic sheath. I know nothing about knives BTW<br><br>Of course since I'm in the UK I'm not going to be carrying the thing in public on my belt. That would be a quick way to get arrested ( and very sensible too...) So the knive and sheath would live in my rucsac since I've only really got it to play with, i.e. learning to make shelters etc in the large commercial forestry around here. We don't really have wilderness like North America and wher it is reasonably wild is usually treeless.<br><br>Justin

Justin, Just slip the sheath onto your belt. Most people carry belt knives just behind the point of the hip. If you are right handed you will see the potential awkwardness. But as you intend to keep it in the rucksack there is no problem. I would suggest punching two holes for a retaining length of stout cord or leather. Do this just above the crossguard. The knot will snug nicely into the bevel and help secure the knife. Take your time and get a good edge. The factory certainly didn't! Let us know how it performs for you.

Thanks for the advice. I checked out CRKT's website. I found the one I was looking for. It was the Stiff K.I.S.S. and I also found a few others that I now want as well. Now I only have to decide which one to get. The ones that look good to me are the Carson F4 and the Polkowski/Kasper Companion. The Russ Kommer Bear Claw, in the serrated-tear drop point appealed to me as well, but will take a place towards the bottom of my 'wants' list.<br><br>LOL at the comment on Louis Riel.<br><br>Ironbird<br>

Tried cotton with orthodontic wax ($1.56 at Giant supermarket for box of 5 sticks ~ 2" long). One-third of a stick burned for about 4 minutes. Just flatten it very thin and roll it into the cotton. Fluff the cotton and spark. This wax softens at body temperature. It is much less messy than vaseline and does not have to be prepared in advance as does candle wax/cotton. Probably of little value to CK and Tom Ayers on their artic adventures, but could be useful to other mortals as myself. _________________________________________________ Proverbs 21:19

CRKT has become my favorite company for budget knives. In addition to their small fixed blades, they make some outstanding folders as well. The M16 line and M18 line are some of the best reasonable priced knives around. I have a zytel M16 that I paid $29 for new. I cannot think of another $30 knife that can top this one. The steel is Aus 6A which is not my favorite, but is far superior to generic steels. The higher end M16 knives are made with Aus8 which is considered by many to be the poor man's ATS34. A really good "semi-stainless" steel.

I have one of those monsters too, and love it for certain things. Best features it has is the fact that you can't break it, and it is so ugly you can't hurt its appearance. I would be interested in any modifications you have for it...<br><br>OBG

So far I have merely reground the blade in a Scandinavian edge up to the main bevel. I added an Erikkson 8" full tang blade blank ( 3 1/2" blade) as a permanent companion for fine work. I am working up a ambidextrous sheath to secure both along with a metal match and daimond sharpening card. I considered several "whistles and bells" with the actual knife, but it's strength is ,well, it's simple strength-K.I.S.S. How was Alaska?