Pete is right. Alcohol pads really remove dirt and debri from the skin and give everyone a false sense of security. I understand that it takes 20 minutes of direct contact with alcohol to kill bacteria.<br>Betadine is a superior antiseptic.

Any time that a legal blood alcohol is drawn, a non-alcoholic antiseptic must be used to avoid the defense attorney's complaint that his client's alcohol level was affected by the antiseptic used as a skin prep.

A second thought just came to me, tying your post to an earlier thread regarding the effectiveness of potasium permanganate in one's PSK. <br><br>In a wilderness situation, sterile water is not likely to be readily available, but there are a few options.<br><br>1. Untreated drinking water from a water bottle, perhaps from a well.<br>2. Treated water with potasium permanganate<br>3. treated water with iodine (potable Aqua)<br>4. Treated water with Chlorine tablets.<br>5. Betatdine wipes.<br><br>Given these options how would you rank them in order of preference? Or which, if any, would strike fro the list completely?

Bill<br>I have no experience with potassium permanganate other than the crystals burn skin. I can think of no advantage in using it over iodine for water purification. Iodine is more efficacious against parasites than chlorine tablets, which is why iodine is used by the military.<br>My preference in your situatio would be water treated with iodine or chlorine tablets followed by betadine wipes. I would not use water from a bottle, as the organisms from the human mouth cause VERY interesting and severe wound infections.

In addition to cleaning a wound, sterile gauze pads can and should be used to control bleeding; the net-like weave will help blood clot stemming blood flow. Keep in mind for major bleeding, do not remove the gauze to look at the wound, this just allows the bleeding to resume, just keep adding gauze pads. With gauze pads wrapped with a snug (not overly tight) roller gauze bandage, direct pressure and elevation of the affected limb, generally most bleeding can be controlled. Occasionally, it may be necessary to apply direct pressure to a pressure point between the wound and the heart. A tourniquet is a last resort and is ALMOST NEVER needed if good direct pressure is applied. The use of a tourniquet should be applied by individuals trained to do so, as it can result in the lost of the limb and even death.

Thanks for the reply. The more potasium permanganate is discussed on the list the less and less important it seems to be, except perhaps as a fungucide. Doug, you have it listed in your PSK. Have you ever used it?<br><br>Beach Do, as a practicle matter, if I'm hiking and someone gets a bad cut, I am not likely to have a bottle of sterile water. If I have previously treated my drinking water with Iodine, it's quite likely that my mouth have been on the nozzle, as you indicated, that would be bad.<br><br>Treatment of any water will take approx. 30 minutes. So it seems that unless you have betadine wipes that it would be best to let the blood flow a bit (assuming its not a massive, life threatening laceration, and then bandage. <br><br>Once the bleeding has stopped, you could clean up with sterile water, but by then the effect may be minimal as the blood has already clotted and formed a scab. Any nasties would already be in the wound and/or blood stream, or bared from entry by the scab, correct?<br><br>(I wouls still clean the area to prevent future infections should the scab open up, though).

Bill,<br><br>It would seem to me that your post assumes that you do not have a first aid kit, so this may be inappropriate, but most good first aid kits include a bottle of eye wash, which, I assume would be acceptable for wound irrigation. I don't know what the medical opinion is on this, but I have used them as such a few times with no subsequent infection problems.<br><br>Take care,<br><br>Andy

Billy<br>The way that I would approach any wound in a first aid environment would be to protect it from further contamination. I would irrigate the wound with whatever clean water that I had available IF there was visible gross contamination and physically remove it if necessary. Then I would apply a sterile dressing, or in the absence of that, I would put the cleanest thing that I have on it.<br>I think that there is probably too much concern on this site, especially with regard to daily carry PSK's, to include bandaids and sterile dressings.<br>I would use sterile dressings if I had a first aid kit, otherwise, I would follow the example of the Saturday matinee heroines and rip up some thing (Not my good petticoat!) and fashion a dressing and bandage.

Thanks.<br><br>I keep a first aid kit in my pack. Plus I have a smaller version in my fanny pack for short day hikes. This is separate from my PSK. For minor cuts, I'm sure betadine and sterile bandages are easy enough to apply. My thoughts were to how to react to serious cut in the wild. I have had first aid training plus a few real life experiences, but none that I would catagorize as a life threatening injury. <br><br>We have often preached on this forum that one should practice skills before we are forced to rely upon them. Wilderness emergency medicine is an area where I feel I have a weekness. Treatment and the decision processes in a survival situation are different from normal circumstances. In Scouts, we are taught that first aid is temporary aid until profession care can be given. Most of the techniques infer that help is relatively close at hand. And for the most part, that's true. But not always.<br><br>I think I was trying to imagine possible scenarios in my head, along with the knowledge that I have some gear in my first aid kit and PSK. What should I do? What should I use?<br><br>I agree, grab the petticoat (the every day one) and apply direct preasure to stop the bleeding. Once the bleeding is under control, I would have to decide what to do. If care was a few hours or less away, wait for profession care and leave the wound wrapped, even if it's not a sterile bandage. But if help is a day or more away, should I consider cleaning the wound. And, if so, with what?<br><br>As I write this, I now realized that I'll have sufficient time to treat water either by boiling and cooling or using iodine tablets. Hmmm... I think I had better place one of those wilderness first aid books that have been recommended on my birthday list!<br>

An experience yesterday reopened my eyes to field care. We located a lost mare in the Sespe ( wilderness area and home to the Condor recovery program.) She had suffered a massive facial wound with copious bleeding and associated dehydration. First Aid consisted of quickly staunching blood flow with my filthy silk bandanna and a crude rehydration via my 21/2 gallon G.I. canteen and tubing into the anal cavity. We then "ponied" the mare to a designated campground where a DVM met us via cellphone ( this time we had one!) The horse was "jugged" ( given IV fluids) ,mildly sedated for pain and transported ASAP. Only then did the actual wound get examined. We found puncture wounds from a mountain lion had damaged the nasal process and eye orbit. Most animal owners see a tissue wound and slop quarts of ointments on the wound, call the DVM and then watch him/her slowly, often painfully have to remove it all, again after often having to deal with other life threatening issues. I relearned the basics; keep it simple and get to qualified help ASAP.