*blinks* You run FMJ for street carry? You're just stabbing him. As much as I like 9mm, in nonexpanding forms, shot placement is the ONLY thing that is going to stop the guy. I train for the off box, but I also like to be able to transfere enegery to the target. I'm good, and I'm confident, but I've been in a situation where I was at "danger of life and limb", and I can say that after the first act, your reflexes are poo. If they have buddies, you will want to be aiming at the torso, easier to hit. Or to hit at longer ranges.

And I wouldn't worry too much about armour. If it was worth worring about, FN would be selling Five-seveNs hand over fist to the LE market. There is some interest, but no one is rushing to it or it's HK equivelency. For the simple reason that armour isn't likely until you are dealing with the hard core guys. You know, the ones who know pistols are only for discretion or backup.

Oh, and FYI, the .45 is better stopper. It won't send them flying, just down. You should know that. I carry 9mm becuase I can control it better in small packages.

The bullet aint wide enough, try a .58 (BP zouave) <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />and <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Troy

Hey I agree with 99% of what you post here... You sound like you walk the walk... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I do not run fmj by design... I have carried it because I didn't have access to anything else. I also admit I would not carry it by choice if offered other choices. Truth be told, my EDC bullet of choice for 9mm is the glaser. I would hate to endanger innocents/neighbors more than I had to. I also like the 12ga for home defense, and I like the frangible "LOCK BUSTER" slugs for that purpose.. Although I will state that it is muy overkill...
I can only base my statements on what have experienced while tactical shooting and hunting small/medium game. In that respect I think I have a pretty good idea what a shot/hand/long/gun does to non-human living tissue. I have not seen the dramatic "T.V." type impacts that are commonly imagined as the result of firing a (even large caliber) gun at living, breathing, trying like heck to survive, animal.

PharmTech...
Benjammin distills it all down for you right here:
"If you want a good semi-auto for self defense, pick one that shoots the largest, most powerful cartridge you can reliably handle."

All BS aside, this is almost (if not) verbatim guidance directly from the venerable "NRA Guide to basics of Personal Protection". On top of that, It's absolutley correct.

Lock busters? I've thought about them, but I've never been able to get my hands on them to test thier accuracy. Anything special to keep in mind, particularly accuracy wise?

As for Glasers, I like them, but you have to be a Fed to afford them for training. :P

Hey Iron

The lockbusters.... And other "Less than lethal" (I know.. Its way more than "Less than lethal") can be had at:
http://www.srtsupply.com/pages/lesslethal/Less.pdf
http://www.harringtonammo.com/products.htm
http://www.less-lethal.com/12gamunitions.htm
Among many others...
They may ask you for creds <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Range: I estimate effective 20M; max 100M(?) never shot one at anything that far downrange.
The thing is a big solid sintered metal/ceramic cylinder.
You HAVE to have a CYLINDER bore (CYL) on your barrel to use this item... You can have a fancy pants back bored barrel, but it had to start life as a CYL to be safe.
If you fire this slug into a solid object (not a sheetrock wall) at very close range (less than 1M to 2M) you will be engulfed in a cloud of whatever you hit and sintered metal/ceramic. It literally vaporizes whatever the slug hits in way that you have see to belive. There is a considerable amout of backblast so keep mouth closed, eye protection, etc.
At 6-7M the slug will still tear a clean hole through a 5/8 sheetrock panel, at 20M it still goes through, but not by much... Leaves a huge dent and small hole.
I doubt it would go through more than 2 interior walls of common construction. It's too light and it's braking apart and loosing mass fast...
Man the thing is nasty at close range, and it totally vaporizes when its something... I am sure you can imagine what this will do to soft tissue. I would not want to be the Paramedic who gets that call...

I carry a Glock model 22 as an issued duty sidearm. I am quite pleased with its performance. I have used it to put down injuried deer from vehicle crashes. I have also used it to put down injuried cattle from truck crashes. As long as I do my job with shot placement it has worked well. Mine has fifteen rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber. I carry this off duty as well.

Sangre,

Kudos to you for the diligence to practice marksmanship so much. I've not had that kind of capacity since the military. Your experimentation should reveal some very interesting techniques most of us won't even think about. I have little doubt that, with your skills, dispatching a thug in short order with a minimal number or rounds is quite practical. I would counsel most folks to shoot center mass primarily because they don't practice enough to really call their shots, and aiming for the middle of the target, they are more likely to at least hit some part of it. Just a practical consideration for the gen pop.

I've carried a firearm since I was 18, which is well over twenty years, most of the time. I've only had to draw my sidearm once, and fortunately drawing it was sufficient to positively control that situation. I, too hope I never have to resort to self defense, and so far I've been lucky (knock wood).

Of course you're correct about the physics. I exaggerated the scale of the comparison only to prove a point, which is that size (or applied force more appropriately) does matter when trying to stop an assailant with non-lethal hits. I can agree that caliber is not what kills. A bb shot from an air gun can penetrate to the heart of an unarmored human and result in certain death. I don't imagine one round of 45 will necessarily knock an armored man down, but it should dramatically alter his impetus, and I am fairly confident 2 or three in quick succession center mass will take him off his feet, body armor or not. I don't know about how much power that has, but it is adequate force. I have seen a guy wearing body armor get shot with a 12 gauge load, and yes, he did get taken off his feet and thrown backwards a ways, about like when my daughter gets the jump on a defensive tackle off the line and explodes into his chest (ah, the exquisite satisfaction of watching her pound defensive linemen is truly a sight to behold). He was sucking wind for a while afterwards too.

Ballistics is a complex analysis. There's just no one equation to answer how a projectile will perform or what the terminal effect will be on an organism, most of the time, for small arms anyways. Energy equations only go so far, and that 243 is a most potent round on javelina, and generates much more power than my little 44 mag with max loads ever could. Still, I've seen what that 44 will do to a 200 lb black bear in a tree, and I don't think the 243 will duplicate that effect. I don't think there's anything wrong with your 243, if it shoots standard 243 loads accurately, it is a definite game getter at longer ranges than I care to hunt. I guess it depends on whether your objective is to kill or to stop the intended target.

Let me put this yet another way. The 25-06 is an excellent north american big game cartridge, capable of dispatching all but the biggest, most dangerous animals on this continent. You could use this to hunt moose, and compared to a 54 cal muzzleloader shooting 400 grain maxies, the 25-06 load I would use to hunt moose with has a lot more energy and range. However, I know that the 54 cal load is far more effective on moose at ranges inside of 100 yards. I've seen bull moose hit with this round get taken off their feet. He got up again, and he stumbled off a hundred or so yards, but he was definitely stunned by the hit.

So when it comes to killing, I tend to lean more towards energy calculations, and the 9mm definitely has what it takes to kill a man, nqa. When it comes to stopping an attack, or anchoring the target, I will lean more towards force calcs.

I guess the caveat is that a dead man isn't going to be moving anymore either. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Benjammin,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I agree with you!
I will state that if (i hope never) I had to shoot a human, it would be shooting to "stop the action" that caused me to start firing. I would NEVER shoot to kill.
Good god, I hope I never see a man actually hit with a 12ga. I have seen what the aftereffects of that looks like (first response to a shooting 2 houses down when I was in college) and it was quite unpleasant.
25-06 is a true North American coyboy caliber... Nice.. I find more old timers who are in the know using this cartridge all the time... I ought to look into one of these...
If have time, live in a rural or semi rural area, and have a reloader/friend has reloader, you could run a few hundred a week.
I know IDPA & USPSA is HUGE in Washington... I have been spanked by guys from there before.... Sound like I'd get spanked by your daughter too! I don't play football (anymore) so please don't send her to range... I don't need more emabraressment!

You might want to rephrase this <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />