#57932 - 01/13/06 04:41 AM
Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
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Welll... A few things.
The round nose lead .38s that were being used against the Moros were using a load that is in theory supersonic. The Army latter found that there was QC issues with the contractor. Something about saving money to maximize profit by putting in less powder than they said they were.... Subsonic 9mm SUCKS, by the way.
As I said elsewhere, it's a matter of will. If you believe that you will overcome, you probably will. No one talks about the number of .45 bullets it takes to stop a drugged up, pissed off fundamentalist in his home jungle. They just like to say that the .38 didn't do the job so well. Possibly the biggest reason why the .45 did as much better as it did was becuase they were using OLD, SOFT bullets that deformed in tissue. The .38s in question were a harder, more modern alloy that didn't deform almost at all, as per contract requirements for a bullet that caused less lead fouling in the barrel. I'd rather have to clean my pistol than be emballmed. Harder alloys deform, but at correspondingly higher velocities and pressures, which the Army felt were unsafe. So we are compairing a subsonic .45 that deforms to a subsonic 9mm that doesn't- easy to pick the winner.
The M9 was adopted in 1984, and the military is restricted to non-expanding ammunition. No expansion, no deform, the bullet doesn't shed any where near as much energy as it needs, I don't care how big it is.
The FBI's shoot out in Miami in '88 (or was it '89? either way, AFTER the adoption of the M9) involved subsonic 147 grain bullets that were designed with a hollow point becuase for an aerodynamic quirk is more accurate that way when it is fired out of a sound suppressed Sterling submachine gun, not becuase it is supposed to expand. Heck, it was examined by the NATO Judge Adjitants and found to be in keeping with the Hauge Accords and Geneva Conventions becuase it doesn't reliably or significantly expand at the velocities is it loaded for from either a pistol or SMG.
9mm doesn't work worth beans through a windsheild. Neither does a .45. .223 and .308 aren't even 50-50 odds through a windshield with it's full inclination. Not even a shotgun slug is all that reliable until you are ON the hood, looking down, firing at a 90 degree angle. Lots of skipping and ricchochetting.
Many of the agents didn't wear thier armour. Those that did, didn't have anywhere near enough armour on to stop 12 gauge slugs or 55gr FMJ from a Mini-14. Those were the long arms that the bank robbers they were attempting to arrest had, in addition to a couple of handguns.
When I was a criminal justice major, we had to dissect the Miami Shootout, shot by shot, relocation by relocation. Right guns, okish ammo, not so okish tactics, a total lack of planning. That's what happened there. The agents got a tip, jumped on it, and went with what they had grabbing guys in the office, stopping to pick up a few scatterguns. For the love of all that is holy, one agent left his service pistol IN HIS DAMN DESK, and made do with another agent's back up gun becuase they could see the bad guys before he remembered what he didn't bring. Against guys known to have armour and long arms, on drugs, who have shown a willingness to commit murder. Yeah, brilliant.
And actually, it was the FBI Academy's firearms instructors who made the case for the .40 Smith. They liked the 10mm, but they wanted a lower velocity load becuase they had a major phobia about over penetration. The same guys insisted that thier theoretical numbers indicated that a 9mm subsonic was fine, and developed the tactical doctrines used at Miami, by the way.... So, we get a load that needs a case and gun the same size as a .45, throwing a bullet a hair smaller around and lighter than a .45, at a velocity a little higher than a .45. WOW, .45 performance without being a .45. Smith and Wesson realised they could so the same thing from a 9mm-class frame using a shorter case.
However, the 10mm low pressure loads are not as silly as I make them sound. It's a simple magazine switch to switch to something quite a bit omphier. I personally think it is the perfect option for SMGs and PDWs, particularly if you stock low pressure, full pressure, and full pressure with 5.5mm bullets in a sabot, but no one asked my opinion. :P
Yes, in all fairness, .45 is better than 9mm. Unlike law enforcement agencies, private citizens have a worse training budget. They also need to carry concealed, while law officers carry in the open. 9mm is smaller, and is more controllable in a smaller pistol. If you want a pistol that will work every time, a good .357. Revolvers just don't fail, unless you blow up the cylinder with a over loaded round, .357 gives you versatility, and even the much worshiped .45 comes in behind the .357 when you need to put an end to a situation.
5-shot, stainless .357 with a 3 inch barrel and crimson trace boot grips, decent sights with tritium inserts, and a rail on the bottom of the grip to slip an illuminator onto when required. Hammer bobbed, but with the stub of the spur prominant enough to allow it to be cocked. Three speedloaders with alternating 125gr semi-jacketed hollow points and 125-gr semi-jacketed truncated cone softpoints, and a Surefire X200, in my jacket. That's what I want. :P
_________________________
-IronRaven
When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.
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Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/12/06 12:50 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Malpaso
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01/12/06 01:16 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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norad45
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01/12/06 02:16 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/12/06 02:37 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Misanthrope
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01/12/06 05:41 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Chris Kavanaugh
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01/12/06 06:49 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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KI6IW
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01/12/06 07:00 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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SheepDog
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01/12/06 08:40 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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norad45
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01/13/06 03:31 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Chris Kavanaugh
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01/13/06 02:03 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Malpaso
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01/12/06 02:54 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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norad45
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01/12/06 03:24 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/12/06 04:07 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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norad45
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01/12/06 04:45 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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miner
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01/12/06 03:21 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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norad45
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01/12/06 05:02 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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harrkev
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01/12/06 01:29 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/12/06 02:32 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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harrkev
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01/12/06 09:11 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/12/06 10:51 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Alejandro
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01/12/06 02:52 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Malpaso
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01/12/06 01:43 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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williamlatham
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01/12/06 01:43 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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tfisher
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01/12/06 02:17 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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norad45
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01/12/06 02:21 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/12/06 02:50 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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wildcard163
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01/12/06 09:29 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/12/06 10:55 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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tfisher
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01/12/06 11:14 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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wildcard163
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01/12/06 11:34 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Woodsloafer
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01/13/06 12:17 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/13/06 12:58 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/13/06 03:28 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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KI6IW
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01/13/06 03:48 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/13/06 04:45 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/12/06 03:51 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Polak187
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01/12/06 03:59 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/12/06 04:04 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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wildcard163
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01/12/06 09:34 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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tfisher
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01/12/06 10:11 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/13/06 08:18 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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cedfire
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01/12/06 05:01 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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KI6IW
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01/12/06 05:29 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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benjammin
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01/12/06 11:16 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/13/06 04:41 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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benjammin
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01/13/06 04:31 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Jackpine_Savage
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01/12/06 08:06 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Homer
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01/13/06 06:24 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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duckear
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01/13/06 04:27 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/16/06 02:26 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/16/06 03:00 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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harrkev
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01/16/06 06:57 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/17/06 06:55 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/18/06 01:40 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/18/06 07:38 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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benjammin
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01/16/06 04:02 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/18/06 03:23 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/17/06 07:18 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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benjammin
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01/18/06 12:10 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/18/06 01:27 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/18/06 01:53 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/18/06 03:08 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/18/06 03:47 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/18/06 04:13 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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wildcard163
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01/18/06 01:53 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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benjammin
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01/18/06 03:00 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/18/06 04:20 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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harrkev
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01/18/06 05:03 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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benjammin
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01/18/06 10:30 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/19/06 01:28 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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benjammin
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01/19/06 02:26 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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ironraven
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01/19/06 02:38 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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benjammin
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01/19/06 03:23 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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KI6IW
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01/19/06 03:29 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Anonymous
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01/20/06 03:46 AM
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gthomas
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01/22/06 02:11 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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wildcard163
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01/18/06 01:45 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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wildcard163
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01/18/06 01:05 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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trooper0366
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01/18/06 02:34 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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resq854
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01/18/06 10:52 PM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Since2003
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01/22/06 02:33 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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Chris Kavanaugh
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01/22/06 04:53 AM
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Re: Glock 9mm vs. .40? Opinions wanted, please!
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wildcard163
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01/22/06 06:06 PM
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