No, it can not be said for ANYTHING short of maybe an antitank rocket. Charles Beckwith, the first CO of Delta Force took a round from a .51 caliber MG in Viet Nam. That's the Soviet equivelent of the M-2 heavy machine gun, full on 12.7mm, half an inch, over an ounce, and still supersonic, through the torso. Entered low, exited high. He died of a heart attack in the late 90s. It's a matter of WILL that keeps you going, not a matter of how big a hole you are leaking from. Most people have a lack of will, so when they see a hole through them and the red sauce dripping out, and they give up. They feel the pain, they know what it means, they are afraid, and they give up.

It does NOT matter what you are using- someone hit, unless in a location that removes all nervous system control instantly, will keep coming if they have sufficent determination, anger or insanity. A sufficency of will can keep people going long after "everyone knows" they should be dead. There is no magic bullet that instantly turns off an attacker with a torso hit. People have been shot with glasers and still be able to stab thier victems. People have been shot through the HEART and survived to make it to the operating room.

The only way to be sure is a head shot. An yes, there have been people who's skulls stopped a 9mm. There are people who's skulls have stoped .308 at ranges of less than 50m. But, the effects of the kinetic energy bouncing thier brains back and forth inside the skull will shut down a large part of thier nervous system, including the limbs. Might not kill them, but the off switch is thrown. .45 will do that. So will 9mm. So will a .38 snub. A .357 does it very reliably. .32 and .380 will usually do it, to.

Use good bullets, and put them where they need to go. THAT is the only way to overcome a sufficency of will.

As for the necco wafer, hold one over your sinus some time. Think the implications through. Yeah, you're moving more than the necco wafer, but I'm pretty sure the bullet is faster than you. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I might not be able to call the eye anymore, but I have no doubt that I have ability and will to put everything I send down range into the off box.

And if you can do it with a .45. congrats. But when you are talking about serious defensive cartridges, it doesn't really matter, so long as they hit the right spot. I won't tell anyone they shouldn't carry thier rabbits foot, either. Put an entire rabbit on your keychain, I really don't care. :P

I think that this is the only weapon that, when shot in the chest, will "knock down" an attacker. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/at4.htm

Very difficult to CCW, however. <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Also, I don't think TSA will allow it as carry-on. It probably needs to be checked, but I'm sure that someone else will know that for sure. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Welll... A few things.

The round nose lead .38s that were being used against the Moros were using a load that is in theory supersonic. The Army latter found that there was QC issues with the contractor. Something about saving money to maximize profit by putting in less powder than they said they were.... Subsonic 9mm SUCKS, by the way.

As I said elsewhere, it's a matter of will. If you believe that you will overcome, you probably will. No one talks about the number of .45 bullets it takes to stop a drugged up, pissed off fundamentalist in his home jungle. They just like to say that the .38 didn't do the job so well. Possibly the biggest reason why the .45 did as much better as it did was becuase they were using OLD, SOFT bullets that deformed in tissue. The .38s in question were a harder, more modern alloy that didn't deform almost at all, as per contract requirements for a bullet that caused less lead fouling in the barrel. I'd rather have to clean my pistol than be emballmed. Harder alloys deform, but at correspondingly higher velocities and pressures, which the Army felt were unsafe. So we are compairing a subsonic .45 that deforms to a subsonic 9mm that doesn't- easy to pick the winner.

The M9 was adopted in 1984, and the military is restricted to non-expanding ammunition. No expansion, no deform, the bullet doesn't shed any where near as much energy as it needs, I don't care how big it is.

The FBI's shoot out in Miami in '88 (or was it '89? either way, AFTER the adoption of the M9) involved subsonic 147 grain bullets that were designed with a hollow point becuase for an aerodynamic quirk is more accurate that way when it is fired out of a sound suppressed Sterling submachine gun, not becuase it is supposed to expand. Heck, it was examined by the NATO Judge Adjitants and found to be in keeping with the Hauge Accords and Geneva Conventions becuase it doesn't reliably or significantly expand at the velocities is it loaded for from either a pistol or SMG.

9mm doesn't work worth beans through a windsheild. Neither does a .45. .223 and .308 aren't even 50-50 odds through a windshield with it's full inclination. Not even a shotgun slug is all that reliable until you are ON the hood, looking down, firing at a 90 degree angle. Lots of skipping and ricchochetting.

Many of the agents didn't wear thier armour. Those that did, didn't have anywhere near enough armour on to stop 12 gauge slugs or 55gr FMJ from a Mini-14. Those were the long arms that the bank robbers they were attempting to arrest had, in addition to a couple of handguns.

When I was a criminal justice major, we had to dissect the Miami Shootout, shot by shot, relocation by relocation. Right guns, okish ammo, not so okish tactics, a total lack of planning. That's what happened there. The agents got a tip, jumped on it, and went with what they had grabbing guys in the office, stopping to pick up a few scatterguns. For the love of all that is holy, one agent left his service pistol IN HIS DAMN DESK, and made do with another agent's back up gun becuase they could see the bad guys before he remembered what he didn't bring. Against guys known to have armour and long arms, on drugs, who have shown a willingness to commit murder. Yeah, brilliant.

And actually, it was the FBI Academy's firearms instructors who made the case for the .40 Smith. They liked the 10mm, but they wanted a lower velocity load becuase they had a major phobia about over penetration. The same guys insisted that thier theoretical numbers indicated that a 9mm subsonic was fine, and developed the tactical doctrines used at Miami, by the way.... So, we get a load that needs a case and gun the same size as a .45, throwing a bullet a hair smaller around and lighter than a .45, at a velocity a little higher than a .45. WOW, .45 performance without being a .45. Smith and Wesson realised they could so the same thing from a 9mm-class frame using a shorter case.

However, the 10mm low pressure loads are not as silly as I make them sound. It's a simple magazine switch to switch to something quite a bit omphier. I personally think it is the perfect option for SMGs and PDWs, particularly if you stock low pressure, full pressure, and full pressure with 5.5mm bullets in a sabot, but no one asked my opinion. :P

Yes, in all fairness, .45 is better than 9mm. Unlike law enforcement agencies, private citizens have a worse training budget. They also need to carry concealed, while law officers carry in the open. 9mm is smaller, and is more controllable in a smaller pistol. If you want a pistol that will work every time, a good .357. Revolvers just don't fail, unless you blow up the cylinder with a over loaded round, .357 gives you versatility, and even the much worshiped .45 comes in behind the .357 when you need to put an end to a situation.

5-shot, stainless .357 with a 3 inch barrel and crimson trace boot grips, decent sights with tritium inserts, and a rail on the bottom of the grip to slip an illuminator onto when required. Hammer bobbed, but with the stub of the spur prominant enough to allow it to be cocked. Three speedloaders with alternating 125gr semi-jacketed hollow points and 125-gr semi-jacketed truncated cone softpoints, and a Surefire X200, in my jacket. That's what I want. :P

Or maybe a 37mm or 40mm baton. But they can get right back up if they don't mind cracked ribs <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I had the same decision to make and chose the .40 Glock. I would have liked a 10mm but the ammunition is not as cheap or as available. The 9mm does have the advanage of being more universal. Unless he has changed, Doug Ritter used to list a .40 Glock as his choice of carry. On Your Own


Always remember, the first rule of a gunfight is to bring a gun, everything else is negotiable. Here are some more interesting rules.
Steves Rules

Nah, it was a Navy SEAL who said it, not me...

I would be very interested in Mr. Libourel's opinion on this or any other gun-related subject. When I read G&A he was my favorite writer along with Bob Milek and Jeff Cooper. That was a long time ago though.... <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Regards, Vince

I traded my g22 for a G17.

The original was designed around the 9mm. The other calibers, adapted to the design.

If you want a bigger punch, get a pistol designed for a bigger bullet. 1911 in 45ACP.

The 40 is a compromise caliber for LEO.

Yep, I'd say we're on the same path here. I'd heard that not all the 9mm ammo used in the 88 shootout was subsonic, but that was a while ago, and timelines fade and merge after a while. I'd heard for a long time the 357 mag with the 125 grain loads were statistically the most effective manstoppers in a handgun, and that only in the past couple decades has the 45 overtaken that load due to the more modern hp configurations. In any case, I would prefer either to any 9mm auto loading out there for self defense, but that's just my tastes. Given the comparisons we've made, I still consider the 40 S&W to be superior to the 9mm.

Go with a Glock 19 9x19mm. It cheap and easier to practice with. It's reliable and concealable. The 9mm round, especially with quality hollow point ammunition i.e. Gold Dot, Golden Sabre, Ranger SXT, is just as effective as the .40.

Also, check in Gunlist or Shotgun news for police trade-in Glock 19 and 17s. There are some bargins to be had.
ASAP get trained.