I guess this dosen't really fit in the 'survival' firearm thread since this would be a concealed carry gun. If all I had was either one of these and came across a grizzly, whatever else I did I'd save one bullet for myself...!!!!! <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Anyway....17 rounds of 9 versus 14 rounds of 40. Seems pretty obvious to me, especially down here where Oxycontin (hillbilly heroin) abuse is rampant and meth is on the rise. As Frank Castle's dad said to him in the novel of 'The Punisher' movie, regarding Frank's mocking of his dad's 1911's:

"You may laugh, boy...just don't come crying to me when you fill a druggie full of nines and he just walks up and breaks your [wimpy] little Glock over your head!"

Unless there are some really hot 9mm loads that have comparable results to the .40. And I read a *lot* of gun mags about Glock's legendary reliability, which is why I'm strongly leaning to getting one....can any of you folk attest to this?

Another Ford/Chevy thing, really, and you'll get heated opinions on both. IMHO, it all comes down to placement. I have both 9s and 40s. The SEALs carried 9mm Berettas for quite a while and hand loaded them hot. Disclaimer: handloads used in a self defense situation will likely cause you problems in court.

The Glock 40's have been known to blow up. Seriously. It mostly happens with re-loads, though. Do a google search on "Glock" and "kB!".

I tend to like 9mm because it is easer to get, and the cheapest center-fire round available. Less cost = more shooting. But .40 does have more power. 9mm is no slouch either, if you use modern hollow-point ammo.

Is there any reason that you are sold on Glock? I kind of dislike the total absence of any real safety (the little trigger lever does not really count). I like something with a manual and/or a grip safety. I have a Springfield XD, and the grip safety is nice.

I forgot to mention, there used to be a forum called Glock Talk, or something similar. You might want to read up on it there. I'd check the link, but I'm at work and all gun/knife web sites are blocked here.

I have both 9 and 40. The British SAS used the Browning Hi-Power in 9mm for years as their primary handgun. Reason why I bought it. Single action only, basic design, will run forever. I now have a H&K USP compact in .40 cal. with a de-cocking lever. I have retired the 9 from carry purposes.

Why? I like the 40 better from a shooting standpoint. Yes it carries more punch, but that was secondary. Shot placement is the most important factor in any gun fight. My shot placement with the 40 is better than with the 9. End of story.

My advice, go to a range that will rent guns and try a bunch. See what feels good to shoot and that you can shoot accurately. Then find a gun shop that will let you try on a couple of different holsters with the gun in it. See what feels comfortable to wear. Look carefully at what you typically wear and see how it conceals. I changed my regular jacket and now my paddle holster only just fits. A smaller gun would allow me more options. I know people who swear by little Kahr K9s because they are real easy to conceal and shoot well.

Finally, no matter what, get out and shoot a lot. Shoot from concealment. Take a class, but just shoot.

Regards,
Bill

"Disclaimer: handloads used in a self defense situation will likely cause you problems in court."

I carry and shoot handloads, including my own cast bullets, almost exclusively, and I would like to know the source of this claim. I've heard it before from one gunwriter but he cited no cases where using handloads made any difference in any criminal or civil case. Unless I come across some actual cases I'm going to continue to use legal handloads (obviously no cyanide tipped or explosive rounds. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />)

Regards, Vince

I have both a Glock 9mm and a Springfield XD 40.....Love them both.

Seals did use a 9mm Hot and believe me they know.... my Police friends swear on a 40.
I also like a .45 but shooting that all day tires my hand and my target hits start to suffer. My choice in a tactical situation would be my .40 and my 9mm as a backup. just target practice I would say my 9mm ( low cost ammo). In a concelled carry scenario I would say my 9mm with JHP ammo. In a survival scenario I would would like my .40 with both Target and JHP ammo.

I favor the .45 ACP or .357 (primarily because that's what I own now), but I would happily carry either the 9mm or .40 provided I had anything other than ball ammo. If having 3 more rounds floats your boat, then go for it.

Regards, Vince

I'm familiar with the one incident that spawned this urban myth. It involved a handloader trying to make a .40S&W hit the max pressure of the .10mm Auto. I belive that there was a "budget" after market barrel involved as well, possibly in an attempt to convert a 9mm to .40SW, but I'm not as possitive of that part of the incident. It has never been mentioned, but I also would not be suprised if there was a barrel obstruction that was never detected. In any case, the overpressure is confirmed, and there has only been that one confirmed and documented case.

The incident was seized on by a couple of radical 1911 fanatics. You know, the kind of pinheads who say that 9mm will bounce right off your chest, and that polymer frames are the same thing as tupperware. I wouldn't be at all suprised if it was then further promigulated by anti-gun activists working within the gun forum (and they are there). If the .40 Glock was unsafe, Glock would have recalled them all long before now. It is by far the most common sidearm in US federal law enforcement service, and that testing is just flat out abuse, much tougher than what the DOD requires. Why do you think that the Sig, which the DOD rates as equal to the Beretta 92, was the defacto standard DoJ and DoTr sidearm from the mid 80s until just a few years ago, when the vast majority of them were phased out by .40 caliber Glocks. Some lousy ammo choices with some of those agencies (the FBI subsonic 9mm debacle), but the weapons they pick are utterly reliable and safe, much more so than DoD selected items.

It's a lawer thing. Handloaders can do whatever they want, but factory ammo must meat SAAMI guidelines as to pressure and dimensions. It's a CYA on thier end.

As for loading your own defensive ammo, I wouldn't do it myself, again as a legal CYA, but that's just a personal opinion. And for the same reason why gun writers make the same suggestion. I also know my moisture control wasn't as good as factory ammo when I reloaded, and had a few failure to fires with my home loads. The only stuff I've ever had fail to fire with factory ammo was WWII or earlier surplus, and the Wolf stuff.

Upsides, down sides-

9mm uses a smaller, higher velecity bullet than the .40, but in terms of kientic energy applied to the target, the differences are small BUT statistically detectable. With expanding bullets of modern design, the playing field is leveled somewhat, but the .40 is still a better "stopper".

On the other hand, .40 is more expensive, harder to find, and more boisterous. You can buy more training ammo for 9mm. Which means you are going to be more confident to hit your target every time. Accessories that are picky about caliber, like magazines, are also more readily available, but there are few that are bore-specific between the two.

Personally, I think "stopping power" is about the most over blown thing in the world. In a defensive situation, I'm more concerned with putting the bullet where it needs to be to turn them off, RIGHT NOW!! I'd pick the 9mm just becuase I can get more bang for my training dollar.

But that is also from someone who used to break 13 necco wafers per magazine with his Hi-Power at the distance of the bedroom. On the range of course. :P

This one is a very hot topic for most handgun users.
First let me clarify that I'm a Glock user, used to EDC a G17 and a G26 as back up. Relied on them during two gunfights in 97 and 00. The main reason why I use Glock is because they work for me, I don't even like their aesthetics or finishing, but they are a fine tool. With this I'm telling that even though I'm a heavy user I'm not a Glock maniac.
Talking about the 40, I still have several reserves with this caliber. It pushed most of the pistols to it's limits, remember that a great majority of the 40 caliber pistols are built on 9mm platforms, and the pressure generated by the 40 is huge. Also I have witness, not been told, at least five incidents with Glock pistols chambered for the 40S&W round.
So my suggestion, if it worth for anything is to keep with 9mm or 45acp and also consider other handguns, the world does not begin and ends with Glock. Again, nothing against them, just being realistic.
Regards

Vince - I handload as well. I was in no way saying using handloads were illegal, or that there was legal precedent. What I was saying was that there would "likely" be problems in court. It just adds ammunition (pun intended) to anti-gun lawyers, whether they be defense or prosecution. Remember, I live in MA, not UT. The anti-gun climate here is much different. That climate was the sole basis of my statement. For crying out loud, someone here was just charged with possession of a crossbow, which turned out to be a standard compund bow. You may not be convicted for someone else's stupidity, but it just might cause you problems.

When I took my CCW class (in Utah), the instructor addressed this specifically. He said that if the situation comes up where you have to defend yourself, you should first call the police and then call your attorney because you will be sued. If you killed the threat, he'll immediately have all kinds of shirttail relatives looking to make a buck at your expense for unjustly killing their innocent relative. If you do not kill him, he'll have ambulance chasers lining up to sue you.

The instructor pointed out that an attorney will take the approach that "you made these bullets and loaded these cartridges specifically to kill this man," using it to try to make a case for premeditation.

Also, if a factory load over penetrates and harms an innocent bystander, the ammo company can come in and take some of that liability. If your handload does the same, guess you get all the liability.

I handload, but I went down to Gallenson's and bought a couple boxes of factory self defense ammo. I fired one box to make sure my gun likes it, I use the other box for CCW, and I used to use my handloads for practice (but I can now buy ammo so cheap that I do little reloading for my 9mm anymore).

Again, I don't think there is anything illegal about using handloads for CCW, but in the unfortunate event that you actually have to defend yourself, seems like there is much more protection and legal wiggle room if you use factory ammo.

Fair enough, what might be legal in one locale could well cause problems in another. But what I am looking for is an actual case where it has happened. We all know that anyone, anywhere , is capable of being sued for anything. It is a risk we run by merely walking out the door. I simply think that, absent an actual case, we are on pretty firm ground using legal handloads no matter where we live. Of course, that could change tomorrow, so I understand your reluctance to use them. To each his own.

Your point about reliability is well taken--it pays to be careful. I have honestly had the same amount of feeding problems with my own stuff as I have had with store-bought ammo--practically zero (unless you count .22 LR which I obviously don't reload.) I agree that if you are not going to pay attention to detail while loading you are far better off using factory stuff.

Regards, Vince

"You may laugh, boy...just don't come crying to me when you fill a druggie full of nines and he just walks up and breaks your [wimpy] little Glock over your head!"

With two placed in the heart and one in the head he is not going to notice the difference between 9mm or .40

Problem is that druggies have no heart and no brain. If they had a brain they would have not started doing that crap. And if they had a heart they wouldnt do it to their families.

I like that!!

There is a drug boat harboured in the Rhine near me. It helps people beat or cope with their habit. Seeing these people on the streets (they are allowed off during the daytime) its shocking to see how devastating drugs are to these otherwise very normal people.

Massad Ayoob used to have a case he mentioned, don't remember the details any more. Google him, you should find his website. He'd know if anyone would- he makes his living now from being an expert witness in court as he does from training these days.

I think it may have been Ayoob who first came out with the warning, but I think I first encountered it a few years ago in Jan Libourel's column in Guns and Ammo. But I don't recall either man ever citing a specific case. I just went to http://www.ayoob.com/ and all I can find there is merchandise, books, and seminars.

When I hike I carry my 29-8 Mountain Gun featuring my own cast RCBS 250 grain Keith bullet. Let Mr. Prosecutor make of that what he wants. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regards, Vince

Like others have said, the 9mm round is cheaper, which means you can hit the range more often.

And like other posters have said, police officers and federal agents are using a lot of .40S&W and a lot of Glocks.

I'm no expert by any means, but should you choose a Glock in .40S&W, I don't think you'll have any problems in the self-defense area. If those guys find it works well, you probably will too. Nonetheless, it all comes down to what you like/choose and are able to use effectively.

I happen to like how easy the Glocks come apart. Super easy to clean often which is a GOOD thing. The G23 seems to be a good size between too-big-to-conceal and too-small-to-handle.

The safety on the trigger -- not my favorite idea, but your finger shouldn't be on the trigger anyway. If it worries you that much don't keep a round chambered all the time.

Here's the web site for "Glock Talk": http://glocktalk.com/

I'd also choose a good CCW class -- one taught by law enforcement folks. Worth its weight in gold.

On a side note; anyone use that "UDAP" bear pepper spray? Looks promising, might buy a bottle to keep for the woods.

My instructor said nothing about it. He pretty much stuck to his script I guess. Well, I hope none of us never has to find out.

Regards, Vince

Everyone, up to now, have made valid points. Here is my experience. When I started with my former law enforcement agency in 1990, I was issued a new HK P7M13 9mm. Our range master had us shoot every other Tuesday, regardless of weather. I put 200-300 rounds per session through the gun, for ten years. I did not have a single malfunction of any type (other than those that were created for training purposes). In 2000, we got a new range master. He converted the entire department over to Glock 22C .40 caliber. My first magazine had a failure to eject. My second magazine had a failure to feed. After changing ammo, I would experience a problem about once every 500 rounds or so. Other officer's experiences were similar. No one in my former department ever shot anyone with either a 9mm or a .40 caliber. The only shootings that we had both involved a shotgun. One was using 00-buck from about seven feet into an 80-pound dog that had his teeth sunk into a toddler. The other was a slug into the face at about 20-yards. The guy had just shot and wounded two officers from a neighboring jurisdiction. Both shots instantly incapacitated their intended targets. There were no lawsuits in either case.

I carried both guns every day, either in uniform, or off-duty. I have always been a "one gun" kind of guy. I train with one gun, and carry one gun (not including a smaller backup gun, but that is a story for a different post). After a while, its use become a reflex. But, there is a weight and size difference. CCW requires thought to wardrobe, where you are going for the day (airports and courthouses usually require you to SECURE your firearm somewhere besides your holster), and weather.

EDC of a firearm is a pain. They are ALL heavy and bulky, some more than others. That being said, all of that inconvenience only has to pay for itself once.

Comments made by others regarding shooting lots of different guns is very important. Does the firearm "fit" your hand? Does it naturally point for you? Is it reliable? You will get as many opinions as there are shooters. Good advise (generally) and lots to consider. But we are all built differently. Choose what is reliable and comfortable TO YOU to shoot AND to carry. Equally important is a good holster that works for you.

In 2005, I moved to a new department. I was not issued a firearm, but was told to go and "buy what I wanted to carry", provided I could qualify with it. I went to range training (every Monday now) and found 20 or so officers there (we are a department of 40). No two officers carried the same firearm. So, I shot one magazine through everyone's gun. Knowing that I will be in investigations (plain clothes) for the remainder of my career was a consideration in my handgun selection. I chose an HK USP Compact .40 caliber, in a shoulder holster, with 2 extra magazines on the other side. I also carry a tactical light in my left pocket (I am right-handed). The backup gun remains the same from 1990. It was the right choice for me, due to the reasons listed above. Your mileage may (and will) vary.

After you finally decide, get quality instruction and practice like your life depends upon it. Because if you CCW, your life (or those of a loved one) may someday depend on it. Someone above mentioned two shots to the chest and one to the head. If you can reliably do this with your chosen handgun, in the rain, at night, in the wind, when it is cold, at the 20-yard line, then the difference between a 9mm and a .40 caliber is NONE. The result is the same.

I'm not going to try to protect all the members of my profession here, but I love when I see phrases like it's a "lawyer thing." Everybody seems to forget that our systems of criminal and civil justice are based on an adversarial system, with both parties trying to convince the trier of fact, whether that be a judge or a jury, that their interpretation of events is more probable than not, or that the individual was proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have violated a criminal statute.

The "trier of fact" is the one who enters the verdict or the award. In most major cases, the "trier of fact" is twelve of you. Not twelve lawyers, but twelve people sitting in a box, who have hopefully listened to the evidence.

Just something to think about.

Gerry

I'm friends with Jan Libourel. I'll ask him about this issue. My present personal carry is a Colt New Service .45 with 255 grain handloads ( old .454 bore) and 7 1/2" barrel. If I dont scare an adversary to death, I can use Butch Cassidy's reason for carrying a SAA in 7 1/2"- He would simply bang that barrel on the nose of uncooperative bank clerks. Theres a lot to be said for vintage wheelguns; superb triggers, the inherent safety of a heavy DA pull around children and reliability of feeding exotic ammo. Not that I need exotic ammo throwing garbage can sized slugs downrange slow enough to track . I got the argument of cartidge capacity one day at my range. I produced my Colt's mate for 12 rounds total. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Chris, although I have never met you personally, I feel that I would probably be safe with you watching my back. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sometimes people forget that the quickest reload is to pull a second gun. (Also handy if the first gun breaks, gets dropped, gets taken away, etc.)

Are you near a shooting range that rents guns? if so rent both and try them. I'm issued a .40 glock (mdl 23) and had to retire my 1911 <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. It's reliable, and accurate, and "cop proof". I can't shoot the same gun in 9mm for anything. The ballance is diffrent. I can shoot the baby 9, but not the mid or full sized ones. the recoil felt diffrent also. Please try them both and when you buy one spend another $275 or so and get a Ciener .22lr conversion unit so you can shoot to your heart's content and get good with it.

Have fun in choosing, and Stay Safe.

The Old New York Reload has always had a soft spot in my heart!! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here is some reading...
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

And in case you missed is, here is a snippet of a post in this thread by Alejandro

Yeah, but necco wafers don't shoot back. Make mine a .45, I know that'll knock a man down, not put him into shock. 'Course, given the choice of a rolled up magazine or a ball bat, I'll take the bat every time too.

Troy

You ever been shot back at???
Range accuracy better not be expected in a gun fight, and if you already know from experience that you'll get that type of accuracy in a gun fight, then you might as well carry a .22... properly placed, it's a killing round too... like I've already said, make mine a .45.

Troy

Shot at...... as a matter of fact yes I have....twice .

Luckily only small fragments hit.......but they still burn like a S...O...B...

(That brings back memories......stepped on a booby trap too, I don't know which hurts more steel spike vs metal frags.)

And yes I am thankful I had my PFK with me. In those days I packed First Aid Kit in an old metal box that "Band-AIDS came in.

Huh. OK, I should have said, as far as I know, there has only been one documented case that I know of the Glock had looked into.

BUT, I think any attempt to blame the design of the firearm is looking in the wrong direction. Proper examination of these cases, and a "gun writer" usually lacks the technical means to carry out in the metalurgical and mechanical sense, would most likely point to the ammunition. Manufacturers develop thier firearms for a specific pressure range. Exceed that at your own risk- it's like putting av gas into your car.

One fast note about "gun writers"" their job is sell copy, just like any other writer. They are experinced shooters, but how many of them understand what is actually happening when a trigger is squeezed? There are lots of automotive writers out there, and they are usually pretty good at saying what failed when a car breaks, becuase they are often trained as mechanics. But how many of them are qualified to design a subsystem of a car or determine the exact nature of a failure? How many of them understand the physics and chemistry of combustion? Gun writers are the same way. Most of them just know that A + B = C. They don't know what the + and = means, it just happens automagcially. Anyone who describes a catstrophic failure as a "kaboom", or shortens it to the cutesy "kB" is loosing credability in my eyes. <rant off>

As I stated elsewhere, there are thousands of .40 caliber Glocks in federal service in the US, and tens of thousands in state, county and local law enforcement and private service in this country. If there was a problem inherient with the design, it would have recieved a much wider publication. These agencies understand that all bets are off with the manufacturers if you run +P+ (and in many cases, +P) loads through thier fire arms. Not only are the firearms not designed to handle the materials stress of these loads, they are not mechanically designed to handle them. I've seen plenty of non-catastrophic failures with auto loaders with higher than standard pressure loads, that don't repeat when the firearm is switched to standard pressure ammunition.

Add in the quality control issues inherient with personally developed handloads, particularly too much powder and/or air within the cartidge, or using to hot a powder. I AM a little suprised by the number of catastrophic failures, in all honesty, but given the numbers of Glocks sold, it isn't that big. But I've seen just as many catastrophic failures from the Beretta and some other 9mms, and with a 1911, with +P and +P+ ammo, usually from reloaders, in terms of either there when it blew or handled the remains.

Other than barrel obstructions, I can not think of how the catfail with the G34 mentioned in the document you sent a link to could have happened with standard pressure ammo, unless there was a mechanical failure, most likely a failure to go fully into battery. Thats a wear and tear related issue. Competitive shooters go through more than a thousand rounds a week between compition and training. Guns do wear out, but the average shooter isn't going to put that much wear on the gun.

The point that Mr. Spier raises about feed ramps was the source, IIRC, about the upgrade about 10-15 years ago. Not upgrading that would be like not noticing if your car had something similiat to it. Reading the article reminded me about that. At this point, I can't think of a reason why a Glock would be in service that had that problem unless the metal itself had just erroded away from usage, and it shouldn't happen AT ALL with any Glock manufactured from around that date, which would include all but the first run or two of .40 S&W models, the distributors of which were notified, and the message passed on to the purchasers at the address on the 4473. Failure to pass it on would just be unprofessional.

Again, so long as the firearms are being properly maintained, there is no statistically significant chance of a inherient mechanical fault for a modern production Glock, or any other firearm from a reputable manufacturer, to suffer a catastrophic failure other than barrel obstruction or an ammunition failure. And bad ammo is possible from the factory. In the case of the G34 that blew with factory practice ammo, I would suspect that is where the fault lies.

Moral of the story- don't try to make your cartridge something it isn't, and stay up to date on the data on your firearm from the manufacturer. Have a GUNSMITH, not just the guy at the gun store, check it out ever few thousand rounds. Don't mess with the ammo, or try the cute and tricky ammo. Don't pull and swap parts unless you know what you are doing and are willing to take the risk. Abuse you gear, and it will fail. When it fails, it won't be happy. If it is really unhappy, it might try to go out laughing by taking you with it.

I think you missed my point. If you can hit a necco wafer the first time every time, you can hit something important the first time every time. Which means you walk away, no matter what you are using, so long as it has enough oomph to get through the skull. I'd rather see someone using a .32 ACP and be able to do that than someone using a .45 ACP and break a clay at the same range half the time.

Shot placement counts a lot more than the size of the lead you are throwing.

Sorry did miss your point....and you are right there is a lot to be said about accuracy. "Spray and Pray" comes to mind.

This debate brings to mind three historical events that changed policy with Military and LE.

The first was the ineffectiveness of 38 cal (9mm) ball ammo on stopping Moro warriors, hence the development of the 45 auto shooting ball ammo.

The second was the miserable performance of half a dozen FBI agents shooting high capacity 9mm autos with JHP ammo into two thugs in Florida (shot placement notwithstanding the scrutiny). Said firefight ending when one of the LEs pumped a few 12 gauge slugs in the uncooperative crooks. Shortly thereafter LEs were packing 45 autos.

Army decision to go to 9mm Baretta shortly thereafter instead of the tried and true 45 auto because the 9 was a more manageable sidearm in the less skilled, less trained hands of the new infantry and certain non-combatants. Hmm, less than 80 years after learning their lesson in the PI, they take the giant step backwards once again using 38 cal ball ammo.

The 10mm was a pretty good compromise. It had the down range trajectory and energy retention of the 357 mag full throttle loads, but the mass and smack more approaching the 45. It would certainly slap you around, though. I think it was women LE who made the case for the 40 S&W, as the 10mm was just too much for them.

History has proven, time and again, that unless you get the 38 cals up to 357 magnum velocities, they just don't work as manstoppers, all things being equal. A torso shot from a 9mm just won't have the same effect as a similarly placed heavier 40. That's been proven and generally accepted as gospel amongst the professionals. Most of the LE departments I've worked with switched from 9 to 40 a long time ago and none have gone back as far as I know. Sure 9 is gonna be cheaper than 40 for practice, but I prefer to do most of my handgun range time with a 22 anyways, the skills are pretty much the same. As far as handloading goes, that is about the least important argument to be brought up in a self defense case. Either your shooting was justified or it wasn't, and those little nuances are trivial and won't be changing anyone's mind on the bench or in the box. They're gonna look at you and the only thing they will think is whether this person needed to be shot or not. You could've used a shotgun shooting slugs on him and that would've been far worse than any handgun. Whatever "pre-meditation" claim some dufus attorney is gonna throw out there evaporates when I say that I handload for economy, which is a verifiable fact, and not some legalese conjecture. Juries and judges prefer facts to assertions.

The only seal I know much prefered a hush puppie 45 as his sidearm. 9mms don't do nearly as well at subsonic loadings.

True, but it can also be said that a chest hit, anywhere in the chest, is going to stop the bad guy... with a .45. Can the same be said with a 9MM??? The body trunk is a lot bigger target than the head, and as to first shot accuracy, again, I'd like to point out that necco wafers don't cause the stress that WILL effect your first shot the way a target that's shooting back at you... not to mention that the necco wafer's not moving like the bad guy may be... now if you can hit a necco wafer in the air with a pistol... <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Troy

Just to add fuel to the fire:
Several years back, a web site, (now lost to memory but I'll look again), kept track of "stops" in shootings. Interestingly enough, the highest percentage, i.e. greatest stopping power, were the 357 Magnum w/ 125 gr JHP and the .40 S&W auto. They surpassed even the 45 ACP and .44 Magnum. As everyone seems to agree, the 9X19 was not particularly impressive.
One other reason given for the US military's conversion to 9mm was to comply with NATO standards.
Opinions are nice, but numbers count.

"There is nothing so frightening as ignorance in action."

Whoa...thanks for all the feedback!

-There is a shooting range just over the state line I mean to check out ASAP. 'Try before you buy' sounds like a good idea to me.

-Hearing so much about how reliable and durable Glocks are pointed me in that direction for a new auto when the 'gun bug' bit me again. That and the end of the high-capacity magazine ban...for now!

Actually for reliability and simplicity I was at first considering a hammerless snub .38. But I already own a Bersa Thunder .380, so the 'pocket pistol' niche should be covered. With a mid-size Glock I figure to have something more 'substantial' for defense and concealment.

Like I said, I was leaning to the .40, but after reading here, the 9 sounds like a better choice overall. Ammo availability hit me later on. And the 3 extra rounds can't hurt!

But I can hopefully get a chance to try some different ones, just to make sure.

If I may paraphrase famed former L.A. D.A. Hamilton Burger " Both defense and prosecution have a moral duty to determine the truth. In the end both work together." This was stated after resolving a murder case involving the forged portrait of a woman . The defense lawyer retired to a vineyard.

No, it can not be said for ANYTHING short of maybe an antitank rocket. Charles Beckwith, the first CO of Delta Force took a round from a .51 caliber MG in Viet Nam. That's the Soviet equivelent of the M-2 heavy machine gun, full on 12.7mm, half an inch, over an ounce, and still supersonic, through the torso. Entered low, exited high. He died of a heart attack in the late 90s. It's a matter of WILL that keeps you going, not a matter of how big a hole you are leaking from. Most people have a lack of will, so when they see a hole through them and the red sauce dripping out, and they give up. They feel the pain, they know what it means, they are afraid, and they give up.

It does NOT matter what you are using- someone hit, unless in a location that removes all nervous system control instantly, will keep coming if they have sufficent determination, anger or insanity. A sufficency of will can keep people going long after "everyone knows" they should be dead. There is no magic bullet that instantly turns off an attacker with a torso hit. People have been shot with glasers and still be able to stab thier victems. People have been shot through the HEART and survived to make it to the operating room.

The only way to be sure is a head shot. An yes, there have been people who's skulls stopped a 9mm. There are people who's skulls have stoped .308 at ranges of less than 50m. But, the effects of the kinetic energy bouncing thier brains back and forth inside the skull will shut down a large part of thier nervous system, including the limbs. Might not kill them, but the off switch is thrown. .45 will do that. So will 9mm. So will a .38 snub. A .357 does it very reliably. .32 and .380 will usually do it, to.

Use good bullets, and put them where they need to go. THAT is the only way to overcome a sufficency of will.

As for the necco wafer, hold one over your sinus some time. Think the implications through. Yeah, you're moving more than the necco wafer, but I'm pretty sure the bullet is faster than you. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I might not be able to call the eye anymore, but I have no doubt that I have ability and will to put everything I send down range into the off box.

And if you can do it with a .45. congrats. But when you are talking about serious defensive cartridges, it doesn't really matter, so long as they hit the right spot. I won't tell anyone they shouldn't carry thier rabbits foot, either. Put an entire rabbit on your keychain, I really don't care. :P

I think that this is the only weapon that, when shot in the chest, will "knock down" an attacker. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/at4.htm

Very difficult to CCW, however. <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Also, I don't think TSA will allow it as carry-on. It probably needs to be checked, but I'm sure that someone else will know that for sure. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Welll... A few things.

The round nose lead .38s that were being used against the Moros were using a load that is in theory supersonic. The Army latter found that there was QC issues with the contractor. Something about saving money to maximize profit by putting in less powder than they said they were.... Subsonic 9mm SUCKS, by the way.

As I said elsewhere, it's a matter of will. If you believe that you will overcome, you probably will. No one talks about the number of .45 bullets it takes to stop a drugged up, pissed off fundamentalist in his home jungle. They just like to say that the .38 didn't do the job so well. Possibly the biggest reason why the .45 did as much better as it did was becuase they were using OLD, SOFT bullets that deformed in tissue. The .38s in question were a harder, more modern alloy that didn't deform almost at all, as per contract requirements for a bullet that caused less lead fouling in the barrel. I'd rather have to clean my pistol than be emballmed. Harder alloys deform, but at correspondingly higher velocities and pressures, which the Army felt were unsafe. So we are compairing a subsonic .45 that deforms to a subsonic 9mm that doesn't- easy to pick the winner.

The M9 was adopted in 1984, and the military is restricted to non-expanding ammunition. No expansion, no deform, the bullet doesn't shed any where near as much energy as it needs, I don't care how big it is.

The FBI's shoot out in Miami in '88 (or was it '89? either way, AFTER the adoption of the M9) involved subsonic 147 grain bullets that were designed with a hollow point becuase for an aerodynamic quirk is more accurate that way when it is fired out of a sound suppressed Sterling submachine gun, not becuase it is supposed to expand. Heck, it was examined by the NATO Judge Adjitants and found to be in keeping with the Hauge Accords and Geneva Conventions becuase it doesn't reliably or significantly expand at the velocities is it loaded for from either a pistol or SMG.

9mm doesn't work worth beans through a windsheild. Neither does a .45. .223 and .308 aren't even 50-50 odds through a windshield with it's full inclination. Not even a shotgun slug is all that reliable until you are ON the hood, looking down, firing at a 90 degree angle. Lots of skipping and ricchochetting.

Many of the agents didn't wear thier armour. Those that did, didn't have anywhere near enough armour on to stop 12 gauge slugs or 55gr FMJ from a Mini-14. Those were the long arms that the bank robbers they were attempting to arrest had, in addition to a couple of handguns.

When I was a criminal justice major, we had to dissect the Miami Shootout, shot by shot, relocation by relocation. Right guns, okish ammo, not so okish tactics, a total lack of planning. That's what happened there. The agents got a tip, jumped on it, and went with what they had grabbing guys in the office, stopping to pick up a few scatterguns. For the love of all that is holy, one agent left his service pistol IN HIS DAMN DESK, and made do with another agent's back up gun becuase they could see the bad guys before he remembered what he didn't bring. Against guys known to have armour and long arms, on drugs, who have shown a willingness to commit murder. Yeah, brilliant.

And actually, it was the FBI Academy's firearms instructors who made the case for the .40 Smith. They liked the 10mm, but they wanted a lower velocity load becuase they had a major phobia about over penetration. The same guys insisted that thier theoretical numbers indicated that a 9mm subsonic was fine, and developed the tactical doctrines used at Miami, by the way.... So, we get a load that needs a case and gun the same size as a .45, throwing a bullet a hair smaller around and lighter than a .45, at a velocity a little higher than a .45. WOW, .45 performance without being a .45. Smith and Wesson realised they could so the same thing from a 9mm-class frame using a shorter case.

However, the 10mm low pressure loads are not as silly as I make them sound. It's a simple magazine switch to switch to something quite a bit omphier. I personally think it is the perfect option for SMGs and PDWs, particularly if you stock low pressure, full pressure, and full pressure with 5.5mm bullets in a sabot, but no one asked my opinion. :P

Yes, in all fairness, .45 is better than 9mm. Unlike law enforcement agencies, private citizens have a worse training budget. They also need to carry concealed, while law officers carry in the open. 9mm is smaller, and is more controllable in a smaller pistol. If you want a pistol that will work every time, a good .357. Revolvers just don't fail, unless you blow up the cylinder with a over loaded round, .357 gives you versatility, and even the much worshiped .45 comes in behind the .357 when you need to put an end to a situation.

5-shot, stainless .357 with a 3 inch barrel and crimson trace boot grips, decent sights with tritium inserts, and a rail on the bottom of the grip to slip an illuminator onto when required. Hammer bobbed, but with the stub of the spur prominant enough to allow it to be cocked. Three speedloaders with alternating 125gr semi-jacketed hollow points and 125-gr semi-jacketed truncated cone softpoints, and a Surefire X200, in my jacket. That's what I want. :P

Or maybe a 37mm or 40mm baton. But they can get right back up if they don't mind cracked ribs <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I had the same decision to make and chose the .40 Glock. I would have liked a 10mm but the ammunition is not as cheap or as available. The 9mm does have the advanage of being more universal. Unless he has changed, Doug Ritter used to list a .40 Glock as his choice of carry. On Your Own


Always remember, the first rule of a gunfight is to bring a gun, everything else is negotiable. Here are some more interesting rules.
Steves Rules

Nah, it was a Navy SEAL who said it, not me...

I would be very interested in Mr. Libourel's opinion on this or any other gun-related subject. When I read G&A he was my favorite writer along with Bob Milek and Jeff Cooper. That was a long time ago though.... <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Regards, Vince

I traded my g22 for a G17.

The original was designed around the 9mm. The other calibers, adapted to the design.

If you want a bigger punch, get a pistol designed for a bigger bullet. 1911 in 45ACP.

The 40 is a compromise caliber for LEO.

Yep, I'd say we're on the same path here. I'd heard that not all the 9mm ammo used in the 88 shootout was subsonic, but that was a while ago, and timelines fade and merge after a while. I'd heard for a long time the 357 mag with the 125 grain loads were statistically the most effective manstoppers in a handgun, and that only in the past couple decades has the 45 overtaken that load due to the more modern hp configurations. In any case, I would prefer either to any 9mm auto loading out there for self defense, but that's just my tastes. Given the comparisons we've made, I still consider the 40 S&W to be superior to the 9mm.

Go with a Glock 19 9x19mm. It cheap and easier to practice with. It's reliable and concealable. The 9mm round, especially with quality hollow point ammunition i.e. Gold Dot, Golden Sabre, Ranger SXT, is just as effective as the .40.

Also, check in Gunlist or Shotgun news for police trade-in Glock 19 and 17s. There are some bargins to be had.
ASAP get trained.

Between reading here and elsewhere, I think I will go for the nine. I called my local dealer (who's shortly going out of business! <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ) this morning for a price quote...he'll have to get back to me tomorrow because of the holiday. I checked another store that has *some* Glocks in stock, and they had a high-cap G23 for only $509, so I should get a comparabile deal. Well, taking into account that I want night sights that is!

Now to other considerations (and apologies if this should be in a new thread - I just figure 'since we're all here...')

Holster: I've heard good things about the Milt Sparks Versa-Max 2. And being for a Glock, the backlog may not be *too* bad if they try to have some made ahead.

BUT then I consider that I won't be wearing the gun every day even after I get my permit. Even if I thought I could keep it concealed at work under the standard issue 'lab coat' that would be a flimsy cover garmet, it is verboten to have guns at the store. For most of the Monday-Friday time the only difference with a permit would be that I could keep the glove-box UN-locked with the gun there (but only when I'm IN the car!).

So...for those relatively few times where I'd be able to wear it on my person - do you think your basic Uncle Mike's/ect would do the trick? Or should I spring for a premium holster no matter what? If it makes a difference, I'd prefer to carry IWB...and I'm a fairly hefty guy (6 foot, around 235 pounds, wear a 42 or 44 pant depending on the fit).

And training...the great thing about where I live is that I can go out and practice in the backyard pretty well whenever I please. True, this is not 'training' in and of itself, but at least it gets me familiar with my guns.

The statement that 9mm ammo is just as effective as 40 might apply to practice, but is not supported by the facts regarding self defense.

If you want a good semi-auto for practicing with, Glock has several models that fit the bill. If you want a good semi-auto for self defense, pick one that shoots the largest, most powerful cartridge you can reliably handle. For some folks, that may limit them to a 22 lr. For others, a 45 auto will be a better choice than lesser cartridges, such as the 9mm and 40 S&W. It's all a matter of ability and committment.

PharmTech

Don't forget to check out other brands besides just Glock.

I own a Springfield XD-9, and love it. In particular, it has a grip safety. This makes it much less likely to go off while in a holster. The polymer-frame auto market is actually very crowded right now. I cannot think of a single major (or even mid-sized) manufacturer that does not offer a polymer 9mm.

Yes, it is possible to safely carry a Glock, but even cops have shot themselves, so it pays to be paranoid. If the trigger goes back, the gun goes boom. There have been cases of the gun going off while being re-holstered. Of course, you can think "I would never do that," and you may even be right. Raise your hand if you have never made a mistake. Now, everybody else with their hands down, think about getting a pistol with either a manual or a grip safety (or better yet, both).

This is not to say that anybody on this forum is lax in safety issues or clumsy. But we ALL are human, and we ALL have made mistakes.

Just my $0.02. Feel free to disagree.

Why not both? IIRC, the .40 Glocks can accept an aftermarket 9mm barrel as a drop in replacement. Then you can use 9mm magazines (heck, I hear that the .40 mags work in a pinch) and rock-and-roll. That way you have the power of the .40 until you expend all of your ammo, then you can switch to the 9mm if you are scrounging around the blue helmeted guys <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

With training you can become proficient with any caliber. Premium self defense ammo is virtually indistinguishable in performance (i.e. it is shot placement that counts, not bullet performance).

I use the Milt Sparks Versa Max II for my commander 1911. Excellent holster. Pricey, but worth it. Just make sure it is mated to an equally well-performing belt.

Edit: my statement about self defense ammo applies to 9mm and above. I would be leary about using .32s or .25s as anyhting but a BUG (back up gun).

Also, if Milt Sparks is backlogged, try lightningarms.com. A little more pricey, but they have a lot on stock for rapid shipment.

I dunno about glock... But 9mm over .40 any day of the week.
I have a Sig P226 & a Sig 229 (for carry) both in 9mm. I have friends who I shoot against in the uspsa and idpa that wont touch a 9mm 'cause its a "minor caliber"... But we all agree that it makes little difference what caliber you are being shot at with, if you are being shot at by someone who is "practically competant" with whatever handgun they are using; You are going to get bad hurt or dead... and fast.
9mm is cheap cheap cheap
you can afford to shoot shoot shoot
One side note: 9mm is the handgun caliber most capable of penetrating kevlar and/or other protective clothing/devices due to its small mass/high velocity. Most handgunners train to shoot center mass and will therefore shoot center mass when under duress. The .40 is practically ballistically designed to NOT penetrate kevlar (one reason the LE communtiy loves it; They dont have to worry as much about fratricide) .40 came about as a "happy medium" between .45 and 10mm after the somewhat overpowered 10mm problems in the LE community... 10mm is nice too...
Point is that kevlar is cheap and freely availible to anyone. If you are facing down a determined hardend criminal, they may well have kevlar on...

Just my 2 Cents...

I wish I could spell...

Well, that'd be true for 9mm vs. Kevlar if all your shooting is fmj, but any expanding round is gonna fail to penetrate unless it has a hardened core as well.

That said, I don't know too many tough guys that would stand up to being hit in the torso with 10mm or 45, whether they're wearing body armor or not. Likely they are gonna get knocked down regardless, even if it doesn't penetrate, but 9mm ammo doesn't have the thump factor unless you get the velocity up around 357 mag full house ammo.

Let me put it another way. Let's say the 200 lb maniac wearing level 3 is running toward you from 25 yards out full tilt bozo. You can empty all but one round from the mag on a high cap 9 into his torso, putting all hits in the armor, and he'll definitely be feeling the hits that will sting like a sonofagun, and you might slow him down enough to squeeze off that head shot at 10 feet. But you are not going to stop his forward progress up to that point unless one of the rounds penetrates the armor and hits something imminently vital, and that's not going to occur unless you're shooting fmj ammo.

That same guy is either gonna get knocked over backwards or dropped to his knees if you do the same with 200 grain JHP 10s or 45s. It is irresistable force being applied, and he just doesn't have the mass to overcome the inertia in the rounds hitting him.

Here's another perspective. Throw a baseball hard as you can at a guy wearing body armor, hitting the armor squarely. There's a lot of energy in that baseball, but it doesn't push him around. Now take a bowling ball and do the same thing. It is going a lot slower, but he can't help but be displaced.

Hopefully that helps.

Aim for the face or crotch... either way, kevlar won't help <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Troy

P.S. Bountyhunter, wherever you are, you'd like this new guy...

Benjammin,
I don't train to shoot center mass... And I do sometimes end up with a clip of fmj in my 229 (carry gun).
I am confident I could dispatch/render worthelss meat a 250lb maniac with less than 4 rounds of 9mm given an ideal situation as presented in your post.
I know I am not the average gun carry.. On average weeks I run 3-4 hundred rounds through my 226 and half that for my carry 229. I have my own neighborhood tactical range facility to train at, and all kinds of crazy ideas get tried out there frequently. EX firing through objects into targets, skip shots, etc... IDPA gets ya hooked... The main point is that the caliber is not what kills you.
I sincerly hope I never have to use any of my defensive weapons against a living target...
I also wonder about the scale of your perceptions of ballistic physics. How much of a blow do you think a typical man can take? Do you really think a .45 is going to knock down a 250lb dude wearing a level 3 kevlar vest? Wow! thats a lot of power... I guess based on that that I should go flying backwords when I get hit with a 12ga? Or why does my .243 not blow a 95lb javalina into the next county when I hit it square in the shoulder? Hmmm....
Must be somthing wrong with my .243...

It could be done, but AFAIK, the barrels for the 9mm Glocks of the same frame size won't simply drop into the .40SW frames. They are a bit smaller.

Never even heard of someone making a barrel that would do the conversion, and it would make me nervous. Too many chances for screw ups, particularly with the same slide.

I'm with ya Ben... that's been my arguement for years <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Troy

*blinks* You run FMJ for street carry? You're just stabbing him. As much as I like 9mm, in nonexpanding forms, shot placement is the ONLY thing that is going to stop the guy. I train for the off box, but I also like to be able to transfere enegery to the target. I'm good, and I'm confident, but I've been in a situation where I was at "danger of life and limb", and I can say that after the first act, your reflexes are poo. If they have buddies, you will want to be aiming at the torso, easier to hit. Or to hit at longer ranges.

And I wouldn't worry too much about armour. If it was worth worring about, FN would be selling Five-seveNs hand over fist to the LE market. There is some interest, but no one is rushing to it or it's HK equivelency. For the simple reason that armour isn't likely until you are dealing with the hard core guys. You know, the ones who know pistols are only for discretion or backup.

Oh, and FYI, the .45 is better stopper. It won't send them flying, just down. You should know that. I carry 9mm becuase I can control it better in small packages.

The bullet aint wide enough, try a .58 (BP zouave) <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />and <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Troy

Hey I agree with 99% of what you post here... You sound like you walk the walk... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I do not run fmj by design... I have carried it because I didn't have access to anything else. I also admit I would not carry it by choice if offered other choices. Truth be told, my EDC bullet of choice for 9mm is the glaser. I would hate to endanger innocents/neighbors more than I had to. I also like the 12ga for home defense, and I like the frangible "LOCK BUSTER" slugs for that purpose.. Although I will state that it is muy overkill...
I can only base my statements on what have experienced while tactical shooting and hunting small/medium game. In that respect I think I have a pretty good idea what a shot/hand/long/gun does to non-human living tissue. I have not seen the dramatic "T.V." type impacts that are commonly imagined as the result of firing a (even large caliber) gun at living, breathing, trying like heck to survive, animal.

PharmTech...
Benjammin distills it all down for you right here:
"If you want a good semi-auto for self defense, pick one that shoots the largest, most powerful cartridge you can reliably handle."

All BS aside, this is almost (if not) verbatim guidance directly from the venerable "NRA Guide to basics of Personal Protection". On top of that, It's absolutley correct.

Lock busters? I've thought about them, but I've never been able to get my hands on them to test thier accuracy. Anything special to keep in mind, particularly accuracy wise?

As for Glasers, I like them, but you have to be a Fed to afford them for training. :P

Hey Iron

The lockbusters.... And other "Less than lethal" (I know.. Its way more than "Less than lethal") can be had at:
http://www.srtsupply.com/pages/lesslethal/Less.pdf
http://www.harringtonammo.com/products.htm
http://www.less-lethal.com/12gamunitions.htm
Among many others...
They may ask you for creds <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Range: I estimate effective 20M; max 100M(?) never shot one at anything that far downrange.
The thing is a big solid sintered metal/ceramic cylinder.
You HAVE to have a CYLINDER bore (CYL) on your barrel to use this item... You can have a fancy pants back bored barrel, but it had to start life as a CYL to be safe.
If you fire this slug into a solid object (not a sheetrock wall) at very close range (less than 1M to 2M) you will be engulfed in a cloud of whatever you hit and sintered metal/ceramic. It literally vaporizes whatever the slug hits in way that you have see to belive. There is a considerable amout of backblast so keep mouth closed, eye protection, etc.
At 6-7M the slug will still tear a clean hole through a 5/8 sheetrock panel, at 20M it still goes through, but not by much... Leaves a huge dent and small hole.
I doubt it would go through more than 2 interior walls of common construction. It's too light and it's braking apart and loosing mass fast...
Man the thing is nasty at close range, and it totally vaporizes when its something... I am sure you can imagine what this will do to soft tissue. I would not want to be the Paramedic who gets that call...

I carry a Glock model 22 as an issued duty sidearm. I am quite pleased with its performance. I have used it to put down injuried deer from vehicle crashes. I have also used it to put down injuried cattle from truck crashes. As long as I do my job with shot placement it has worked well. Mine has fifteen rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber. I carry this off duty as well.

Sangre,

Kudos to you for the diligence to practice marksmanship so much. I've not had that kind of capacity since the military. Your experimentation should reveal some very interesting techniques most of us won't even think about. I have little doubt that, with your skills, dispatching a thug in short order with a minimal number or rounds is quite practical. I would counsel most folks to shoot center mass primarily because they don't practice enough to really call their shots, and aiming for the middle of the target, they are more likely to at least hit some part of it. Just a practical consideration for the gen pop.

I've carried a firearm since I was 18, which is well over twenty years, most of the time. I've only had to draw my sidearm once, and fortunately drawing it was sufficient to positively control that situation. I, too hope I never have to resort to self defense, and so far I've been lucky (knock wood).

Of course you're correct about the physics. I exaggerated the scale of the comparison only to prove a point, which is that size (or applied force more appropriately) does matter when trying to stop an assailant with non-lethal hits. I can agree that caliber is not what kills. A bb shot from an air gun can penetrate to the heart of an unarmored human and result in certain death. I don't imagine one round of 45 will necessarily knock an armored man down, but it should dramatically alter his impetus, and I am fairly confident 2 or three in quick succession center mass will take him off his feet, body armor or not. I don't know about how much power that has, but it is adequate force. I have seen a guy wearing body armor get shot with a 12 gauge load, and yes, he did get taken off his feet and thrown backwards a ways, about like when my daughter gets the jump on a defensive tackle off the line and explodes into his chest (ah, the exquisite satisfaction of watching her pound defensive linemen is truly a sight to behold). He was sucking wind for a while afterwards too.

Ballistics is a complex analysis. There's just no one equation to answer how a projectile will perform or what the terminal effect will be on an organism, most of the time, for small arms anyways. Energy equations only go so far, and that 243 is a most potent round on javelina, and generates much more power than my little 44 mag with max loads ever could. Still, I've seen what that 44 will do to a 200 lb black bear in a tree, and I don't think the 243 will duplicate that effect. I don't think there's anything wrong with your 243, if it shoots standard 243 loads accurately, it is a definite game getter at longer ranges than I care to hunt. I guess it depends on whether your objective is to kill or to stop the intended target.

Let me put this yet another way. The 25-06 is an excellent north american big game cartridge, capable of dispatching all but the biggest, most dangerous animals on this continent. You could use this to hunt moose, and compared to a 54 cal muzzleloader shooting 400 grain maxies, the 25-06 load I would use to hunt moose with has a lot more energy and range. However, I know that the 54 cal load is far more effective on moose at ranges inside of 100 yards. I've seen bull moose hit with this round get taken off their feet. He got up again, and he stumbled off a hundred or so yards, but he was definitely stunned by the hit.

So when it comes to killing, I tend to lean more towards energy calculations, and the 9mm definitely has what it takes to kill a man, nqa. When it comes to stopping an attack, or anchoring the target, I will lean more towards force calcs.

I guess the caveat is that a dead man isn't going to be moving anymore either. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Benjammin,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I agree with you!
I will state that if (i hope never) I had to shoot a human, it would be shooting to "stop the action" that caused me to start firing. I would NEVER shoot to kill.
Good god, I hope I never see a man actually hit with a 12ga. I have seen what the aftereffects of that looks like (first response to a shooting 2 houses down when I was in college) and it was quite unpleasant.
25-06 is a true North American coyboy caliber... Nice.. I find more old timers who are in the know using this cartridge all the time... I ought to look into one of these...
If have time, live in a rural or semi rural area, and have a reloader/friend has reloader, you could run a few hundred a week.
I know IDPA & USPSA is HUGE in Washington... I have been spanked by guys from there before.... Sound like I'd get spanked by your daughter too! I don't play football (anymore) so please don't send her to range... I don't need more emabraressment!

You might want to rephrase this <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh, definitely don't try to drop in a stock Glock 9mm barrel into a .40 gun! Buy a CONVERSION barrel designed for the .40 slide, but with a feed ramp and chamber for 9mm! A bonus feature on most of these conversion barrels is that you can now shoot lead bullets (the unique rifling on stock glock barrels can lead up and cause problems wwhen shooting lead bullets)! Might invest in the proper extractor, though I hear the .40 extractor works well with 9mm conversions.

A couple years ago I was being silly and slapped her left butt cheek at the mall a little too hard. In her rage, she turned on me, shoved me in the chest, and sent me through the air a few feet backwards. Fortunately, I stayed vertical, so I didn't go sprawling. Needless to say I don't pop her butt in public anymore <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

From a survival perspective, I much prefer to avoid putting myself in a situation where carrying a firearm is preferable. So far I've done pretty well at that, Baghdad not withstanding.

Just my opinion, but I think you should go to a range and rent a few different guns. 9 or 40 may not be what works best for you. You may also find a different manufacturer that feels better to you. I have Glocks, 9s, 40s, a .357Sig, and a 10. I like them all, but I CCW a Springfield Armory XD-45. The grip angle is a lot different than the Glocks. Grip angle is something that can be easily compensated for at the range, but if your life depends on it, I'd rather have something that is more instinctive. The 45 is pretty new to the XD line, but the can be had in 9, 40, or 357 sig as well.
Please note: I am not employed by Springfield Armory, this reply is not an advertisement for any product they make (or import). It is merely what works for me.
In trying as many guns as you can, you may find what works for you may be something completely different, a revolver perhaps.
In all, try as many as you can, buy quality, get instruction, and practice, practice , practice. Don't forget ear and eye protection!
Good luck with whatever you choose.

You clock in at 200lb?!!
I bet you have fun at the games...
I am not a sexist individual and I have been out climbed/skiied/run/swim/shot(bullseye) (I lay waste to all (so far) on my road and mtn bike) by females. I am not a bumbly at any of these. I really didn't have a problem with it. I was beat by them fairly, they were hard women... They schooled me just like the guy they schooled yeterday.... I have never had to go up against a woman in a combative sport like football. If I got my ass handed to me by a girl... Two things would happen... I would seriously take a look at my labs/diet/training plan... Hehe.. I would also try and get a date... If I ever had to up and get beat down again, I could say "Aw man, I gotta let her win or I'll really get it later"... And not have to feel so bad... Man I wouldn't know what to say otherwise...
Hard to beat that kind of genetics...

On carry... I would love to never carry for defensive purposes, unfortunatley down in southern NM where I currently reside it is better to have than not... When I lived in Santa Fe and also Taos, I never carried. It's funny but I actually feel the safest when unarmed, way up in the backcountry taking runs down the hills with a buch of friends.. I carry an Avvy beacon instead... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hey cowboy If you were in Bahgdad... Thanks Man.

Actually, I am pushing 260 lbs. The girl ain't no petite thing either, but she's not what I'd call butch. She's got beautiful long black horses mane hair (did I mention she's half cherokee?), curves in all the right places, and wears D cups. She's got lots of muscle, but she's properly proportioned. I like going to the gym with her because she works out with the same weights I do. What I don't like is all those young males pausing in their workout routines to watch her. Of course SHE likes it when they watch her. Thank God I am as big as I am. I can still whoop her butt wrestling her on the floor, though it is quite the workout.

I've watched her send boys running off the field crying from the beatings she gave them on the line. I've seen girls upended on the court trying to get through her after she'd planted and was standing there like a big brick wall. I had to intervene on behalf of the idiot boy who insulted her one day and caused her to slap his cheek. Spit and lips were everywhere. He's lucky he kept all his teeth. Obviously she was holding back. Surprisingly, her teammates seldom asked her out, although her sophomore year she went with the star halfback of the team to the homecoming dance. I think that was the first time an offensive lineman was invited to the dance by a back. Now that she's in colege, she keeps bringing home these big brutes that I have to feed. I always make sure that her visits coincide with my gun cleaning sessions.

As for carry, I guess for folks like us, having a pistol at times when it may not be imminently warranted is a lot like carrying a flashlight around in your pocket during the daytime. I used to think being up in the woods way out yonder was insular from the predations of man. Alas, one day I found myself heading to the hilltop of a remote radio site to do some work, only to be confronted by a group of young men carrying beer and firearms with them, and no means of egress except through their group. I got lucky, but it could've just as easily been my bleached bones on the hillside to this day. Fortunately, they'd rolled their rig off the side of the road, and I was able to pull it back up for them and send them on their way.

I will never feel safe unarmed. Just different experiences have conditioned me to different perspectives I guess.

Baghdad can make you feel mighty small.

Rules for dating Ben's daughter:

Don't make her cry, or her father won't show you any mercy. He'll just hand you right back to her. :P

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention she can bust twigs at 50 feet with an Iron sighted 22 lr daisy rifle.

BTW, her career choice is to become a US Marshall. Should be an effective intimidator when she puts her foot to someone's front door and it comes off it's hinges like Herman Munster was beating on it. She's got two years left in college, but the feds and the local LEs are already recruiting her.

I can imagine her dealing with some drunk injun on a res who's giving her a hard time. She'll pick that son of a buck up by his britches and make him kiss the steel bars of his prison cell. She's got these long, beautiful fingernails that are as tough as bear claws. Once a defensive lineman who was getting frustrated with her successful blocking thought to grope her on the line. After a couple times of this, she decided that when he brought his hands up under her chest pad, she would plant those claws in the backs of his upper arms (that tender spot between your funny bone and your armpit). He left the field bleeding a little and that was the end of the groping. Good thing, too, cuz when I found out about it I was fixing to wait out at the locker room door to discuss the situation, but figured she'd already dealt with the incident sufficiently.

I think I still got her beat though. Out at the firing line, she still flinches a little when she pulls the trigger on my super redhawk.

A good measure of a man is how he raises his children. Sounds like you measure up just fine.

And I always enjoy a good story about a woman who can take care of herself, especially when it involves an inappropriate male in pain!

Agreed!

it's amazing to me how often this debate comes up. and of course, there are those who say the 9mm is horrible, and if you don't have a .45, you might as well be throwing rocks at an attacker. some rely on the numbers approach -- amount of penetration, energy, velocity, etc.

the funniest part to me is, this has all been discussed at length over at tacticalforums ... here's a link to the topic i'm referring to: Service Pistol Calibers. please, before you make a boisterous comment to the effect of a .45 knocking a man off his feet while a 9mm is akin to barely stabbing him with some tweezers, read the posts there <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My carry is a 9MM with Black Rhino loads. My brother, a cop, carries the same rounds.

"Leave the gun, bring the canolli." <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's gotta be my favorite movie quote of all time <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Troy