Took the Troop camping this past weekend - great campout. Most stayed in a cabin (wood burning stove) and some chose to sleep outside. A little below 0F Friday night, and warmed up to about 20F Saturday during the day. Lots of good stuff.

After lunch on Saturday another leader and I took four 13 year old scouts on a hike to a remote area of camp (the others were working on various scout skills for advancement). These 4 were all 1st Class Scouts, meaning to me that they should all have the basics down pat. Two were from one patrol and two were from another. I told the four of them that we were going to take a little walk; nothing more. As they were going out the door, I handed each buddy team a 2 qt pot and lid from their respective patrol cooksets and told them to bring it along. I was pleased to see that they were all dressed in loose layers and had their Ready Packs on. They stowed the pots and we took off. There was about 8 inches of snow on the ground, most of it fresh.

After about 20 minutes walking, we came by design to a small lake. We discussed crossing it and then I had them safely cross the lake to a brush - sheltered peninsula. Up the bank and into a small clearing, where I halted them. It was now snowing pretty heavily, and I told them to give me their water. They each coughed up a 1 litre bottle. I then poured 4 ounces into each of the two pots and told them that the situation was that they had been hiking all day, were down to thier last bit of "seed" water, and the weather would not permit them to continue on safely. I told them the "track soup" story I first heard 25 years ago from a traditional Eskimo, and said that they each had to bring 1/2 a pot of water to a full boil and make a cup of instant soup for each person in the team (I had the soup packages in my pack). The patrol team that was first would not have to clean up dishes and kitchen after supper, because the losing patrol would do it for them.

Any questions? "Mr. Ayers, can we use my stove?" "You can use whatever you have with you." Stunned look on the other team's faces, then an orderly flurry of activity from 4 boys. One team set up a cannister stove, sat on their packs, and started slowly feeding clean snow into the water in the pot. The other team cleared snow to bare ground, then had one member gathering twigs and small sticks while the other pulled out two tins from his pack - one with vasoline impregnated cotton balls and the other with bits of fatwood in it. He actually had his fire lit before the other team had the stove going!

The fire boys knelt on thier packs and worked fervishly to feed twigs, balance the pot (never took a hand off it), feed snow, and blow on the twigs - sounded like a steam locomotive "puff-puff-puff-puff" steadily. Minutes pass. The other team's stove is slowing down, but it is nearing a boil - bubbles starting to form - and I saw it like it was slow motion - the stove slowly leaned to one side - just a bit - and "splash!" the pot of nearly-boiling water spills.

The stove team hastily sets things back up and starts over. But now the propane has all burned off and the iso-butane fraction is almost gone. Too cold for the butane that make up the bulk of the fuel to vaporize very fast from the "heat" reflected from the burner, so the flame is now looking pretty pitiful. They get up to the amount of required water, but it's 50% slush when I see steam billowing past the lid of the fire team's pot - the less-equipped scout team has a full rolling boil. Winners!

Cups and spoons come out from that team and I hand over two packages of soup. They look over at the losers and say "Hey, we have enough boiling water for you - come have some soup with us." (I think that tickled me more than anything.) So the stove boys carefully set the pot off the stove and came over to get water and soup. There was NO bragging or razing - I was amazed.

While they were sipping hot soup, I set up my stove and before they finished their soup had a full pot of water boiling. I set the pot into the ensolite cozy it travels in, put the stove away, and asked if they wanted hot water for boullion or tea or instant cider (of course they did). They built up the fire and talked a LOT. Both teams stated over and over that they had "learned a lot" - not only from their own performance, but from the others. There was no "winner" "loser" talk at all - all I heard was one time "We'll personally wash up your supper mess tonight - it wouldn't be right to make the rest of our patrol do it." (and later, they did exactly that)

They discussed all sorts of related things. The stove owner wants to learn how to get better performance out of his stove in cold weather now - he said that NOW he understands what I told him about his stove and cold weather use and why I don't use that model of stove. It would take me hours to type all the neat stuff they/we discussed. As the conversation continued, they dug into their packs and brought out various trail foods to share around. The boys just impressed the heck out of me.

I didn't contrive anything; it all just happened that way. We got back to the cabin just after dark, and they spent supper discussing the whole event with the other boys - cooperatively, from one table to the other. Being prepared is more than just having the latest equipment, and I believe that 4 boys truly understand that now.

Of course, those 4 all want a stove like mine for Christmas... <sigh>

Tom

Just like sports, you play like you practice. It's great that you the teacher learned as did the students.

BTW, what stove do you have?

That is a great story! Thanks for helping the next generation grow up to be responsible adults, able to take care of themselves and each other.

Great story, Tom... and your stove is???

Troy

Excellent story and trip Tom.

It's been said, but I'll chime in -- *great* story! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You guys! <img src="/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> It doesn't matter what stove I had with me <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And they're sort of like knives or religion - personal tastes/beliefs.

I have two very different old white gas stoves that I trust completely, neither of which were what I was carrying. One is a first model MSR XGK and the other is a first model Coleman Peak I (Model 400 - not 400A, not 400B - just 400). Both have burned gallons and gallons of fuel for me and until recently I've never had a problem with either. The dip tube broke off the MSR (age) and instead of making a replacement dip tube, I bought a new pump - not as well made as the old ones. First time I used it with the new pump (OK - it was at the house - I didn't trust it untried with a new part), it leaked and caught fire. I was so pissed I threw it and THEN smothered it with a handy large empty flower pot. Now I need to straighten out the tube to the generator and replace o-rings. MRS is on my bad list for the time being...

I used to have a SVEA 123 that I loved, but it truly was not a good cold weather stove - even tho I made it work in cold weather. If I hadn't loaned it to my brother (who then got rid of it)... I should buy another for nostalgia's sake.

No, what I had this past weekend was a new (to me) stove I'm trying out. It's a Coleman PowerMax stove - the Xtreme, I believe - the three-legged one with the slightly higher output. I don't have a lot of use logged on it yet (had it for less than a year), but so far I really like it. I have some durability concerns with the bottle attachment and I wish the legs were stamped steel or shaped steel wire instead of cast magalloy, but so far it rocks.

Regardless of tips, tricks, and techniques, almost all cannister stoves are iffy in cold weather at low elevations. For the most part they are designed to run with the cannister upright, drawing gas off the top. Problem is, even with the best blended fuels, in cold weather, first the propane comes off (good to about -40), then the iso-butane boils off (good to maybe 10F at best), leaving the primary fuel, butane, stuck in the cannister because it will not boil below about 32F at sea level. Most of them work better at high elevations because the fuel boils at lower temperatures.

The PowerMax cannister stoves are very different, even tho the fuel blend is essentially the same (maybe a little more propane)

I think MSR would do a better job with this than Coleman - of course, it would cost a bit more. But give Coleman credit - they brought this to market. The thing is, it's the fuel delivery + a generator that makes it work so well. The fuel bottles have a klunk tube in them so unlike other gas cannisters, they deliver liquid instead of gas. At the burner end, a conventional looking generator gasifies the propane-iso-butane-butane mix. Works like a cannister stove (it is) and performs like a gasoline stove.

If you read the fine print... there are a couple of MSR cannister stoves you can sort of do the same thing with, but it's awkward. My wife loves her MSR RapidFire (no longer made) and once it is running, you can invert the cannister to deliver liquid. One of the boys has the replacement to the RapidFire, the MSR WindPro, and it's the same deal - you can invert the cannister after it's lit. BTW, look at the MSR Simmerlite beside the WindPro - it's obviously the same stove, but mated to a pump and fuel bottle for white gas instead of a cannister. If MSR made the stove adaptable to either fuel supply... Primus already did that with the OmniFuel and AFAIK it works well, but I haven't actually seen that stove or used it. Because it's a remote cannister (when used as a cannister stove) AND has a generator, I suspect it, too, could have the cannister inverted for liquid fuel delivery.

I'm hardly likely to give up my white gas stoves, but I REALLY like the performance and ease of use of the PowerMax Xtreme so far. If it holds up, it will probably become my favorite.

Edit: I added an MSR style windscreen made from the heavy foil of a disposable roasting pan and these stoves are a LOT less expensive bought directly from Coleman via the Youth Group program (BSA, in my case). We bought a number of these for the boys to use when they backpack, but Ready Packs have only personally-owned gear in them - I want them to know/use/rely on their own stuff, and most canot afford their own stoves. End Edit.

Oh, I have the PowerMax lantern as well and it truly has my seal of approval, regardless of how the stove hold up - that is a GREAT little bit of gear.

I think I'll go play in the fireplace now...

Tom

Heh - the Model 400 Peak 1 - good stove, doesn't throttle all that well - I have one <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for the Seva - you know you can get a pump for them to run them in cold weather, right? My old camping buddy carried that. If I ever start camping again, I WILL get the little Seva, simply because for day hikes, the Seva is a lot lighter and smaller

In my experiance Peak I 4xx stoves throttle exceptionally well - we have my old one, two of our sons have 442 versions, my Dad has one like mine, my brother has a 400A - all of them throttle exceptionally well. They are basically a miniature verson of the ubiquitous Coleman box stove - same type of burner, generator, and throttle.

Are you certain you have an older 400 stove? The 400 and 400A stove has two control levers - a little red "choke" lever much like on a green box stove and a large black lever positioned lower that moves thru a horizontal arc to throttle the burner - see part 8 below:



The newer model 400B stoves, as well as the 442 dual fuel stoves only have the little red lever. See below:



The older version is far easier to throttle while a pan is on the stove. Coleman probably saved 9 cents a stove by changing the design...

Perhaps there is something mechanically amiss with yours? At a guess, depending on the exact version, the wire is not connected in your generator tube - have you ever had it off? Coleman does not have great QC on these small stoves or their propane lanterns IMHO - good designs sometimes poorly assembled.

My old Svea had the pump conversion (more like a syringe). I also carried a circular bit of 1/8" plywood about 1" larger in diameter than the stove base with a scrap of ensolite on the bottom. On the top I had 3 tiny round head brass screws arranged so that the seam on the tank was a snap fit. It made the stove more stable and provided some insulation from the ground in winter. Performance-wise, I'll take any of my other stoves. Nostalgia-wise, I'd love to have the stove back... you're helping me talk myself into buying a new one for fair weather cuppas.

EDIT: A Svea without pump only saves 5 ounces weight over a 400 Featherlite (which also has a much larger fuel tank, far better simmering, nearly twice the max heat output, better stove and pot stability, and works better in cold weather). I see they have modified the pump - added a little angle fitting to the end. Take a look at some other stoves, too. A JetBoil is awesome. MSR Simmerlite or WindPro - heck there are tons of neat stoves out there now that beat a Svea hands down. Sveas don't make sense from a performance standpoint. Ya just gotta love those little Sveas to use one! END EDIT

Regards,

Tom

Oh, definately has the lever - I think I bought it the month it came out - it throttles way better the the seva, but it's not my kitchen stove - still a bit too hot for some things - wide range - true - but from "Blast furnace" to "still a bit too hot for some things"

I think it's 25 years old now