Its always fun to get a good response to a post!<br><br>As for snorkel and mask, I have read somewhere that diving gear automatically results in an extra fee if brought on an ariplane (source unknown), Does anyone know of this or how this fee works?<br><br>Stefan

I’ve got to say that I’m surprised at the turn this thread has taken. I’m not going to criticize anyone else’s idea of survival preparations- it’s their life, not mine, and they should be defending it however they see fit- so I’ll just address some points from my own personal point of view.<br><br>Personally, I consider the likelihood of a commercial airliner going down as barely worth consideration. Sure, I wouldn’t mind having a few things on my person that might come in handy, but… it’s incredibly unlikely that this is going to happen on one of the relatively few flights that I take a year. If it does happen, there’s an excellent chance I won’t survive to worry about anything at ground (or sea) level. If it does crash and I do survive, I think there’s little chance that I’m going to be out there long enough to worried about things like firemaking or aluminum foil after that- the movie “Castaway” notwithstanding. And if the commercial airliner does crash, and I survive the crash, and I’m in good enough shape to worry about it afterward, and I find myself stranded on land or sea long enough to worry about what I brought (assuming ANYTHING I brought, on my person or carry-on, also survived), with rescue for some bizarre reason not coming very soon… well, I might be glad for a something or other I have for awhile, but it may not make any difference for long. There are limits.<br><br>Personally, I’m about as likely to check on an airliner with a flotation jacket or inflatable vest, smoke hood, and snorkel as I am to go golfing with a lightning rod on my head- and lightning on a golf course is a much more real threat.<br><br>Now, if anyone really wants to try to get on an airliner with all that, and wads of aluminum foil, aluminized mylar, batteries and steel wool, and lord knows what else, don’t let me stop you. I will watch- from a distance- with great interest. <br><br>My personal objections to the restrictions on airline flights has nothing at all to do with feeling that I might need survival gear if the plane crashes- it has something to do with the differences between what happened with Flight 93 and the other three commandeered planes on 9/11, the unknown number of lives on the ground that were saved, and the number of lives that were lost because passengers and crew were so carefully, and meticulously, and self-righteously made completely helpless.<br><br>That, and I have SOME concern about the high likelihood of being in a strange city, for who knows how long, without my “urban” PSK. Sure, I can probably check a lot more than they’ll let me carry on, but the chances of my transferring stuff from the checked luggage to my person before reaching a hotel room are pretty small, and the chances of the airline losing my luggage are excellent. <br>

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I’ve got to say that I’m surprised at the turn this thread has taken. I’m not going to criticize anyone else’s idea of survival preparations- it’s their life, not mine, and they should be defending it however they see fit- so I’ll just address some points from my own personal point of view.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Hmm... Let's see:<br><br>Mental exercises like these keep us from getting intellectually flabby.<br>1. How much gear can I carry?<br>2. How much gear can I covertly carry?<br>3. How much gear can I realistically carry?<br>4. How much gear can I realistically covertly carry under these restrictions?<br>Gear for commercial airline travel is just one particular example of such cerebral conditioning, and, as such, is valuable in and of itself, even if one never carries the gear in real life at all.<br><br>It's the principle of the thing... an ideal I strive ever to achieve more fully.<br><br>It's fun.<br><br>It gives me a sense of pride.<br><br>I got tired of hearing "Well, I guess there's nothing we can take with us onboard anymore," and wanted to make a point in rebuttal.<br><br>I like having my stuff with me.<br><br>It's good to thoroughly examine the edges of our freedoms. It's the only way to know with certainty where they end.<br><br>It calms my mind to know I'm as prepared as I can be.<br><br>It's fun.<br><br>Maybe it's my old Firefighter experience, but I don't travel without a smoke hood.<br><br>I never go anywhere without a 1st Aid Kit, although my EDC one is quite small.<br><br>Much of what I've discussed in this thread is just stuff that I keep on me, in my jackets, at my office and/or in my car, anyway. So, I might as well take it along when I travel.<br><br>And, oh yeah, it's fun. <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Personally, I consider the likelihood of a commercial airliner going down as barely worth consideration. Sure, I wouldn’t mind having a few things on my person that might come in handy, but… it’s incredibly unlikely that this is going to happen on one of the relatively few flights that I take a year. If it does happen, there’s an excellent chance I won’t survive to worry about anything at ground (or sea) level. If it does crash and I do survive, I think there’s little chance that I’m going to be out there long enough to worried about things like firemaking or aluminum foil after that- the movie “Castaway” notwithstanding.<p><hr></blockquote><p>I completely agree. I think you're right on all counts. Er, except that warmth for shock victims is an immediate need which cannot wait for SAR.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>And if the commercial airliner does crash, and I survive the crash, and I’m in good enough shape to worry about it afterward, and I find myself stranded on land or sea long enough to worry about what I brought (assuming ANYTHING I brought, on my person or carry-on, also survived), with rescue for some bizarre reason not coming very soon… well, I might be glad for a something or other I have for awhile, but it may not make any difference for long. There are limits.<br><br>Personally, I’m about as likely to check on an airliner with a flotation jacket or inflatable vest, smoke hood, and snorkel as I am to go golfing with a lightning rod on my head- and lightning on a golf course is a much more real threat.<p><hr></blockquote><p>If smoke, drowning and cold water didn't kill so darned quickly, I'd agree with this too. But, if this were really true, then why have PDFs at all? And why is smoking banned on so many flights now?<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Now, if anyone really wants to try to get on an airliner with all that, and wads of aluminum foil, aluminized mylar, batteries and steel wool, and lord knows what else, don’t let me stop you. I will watch- from a distance- with great interest.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Ah, it's boring. I carry a lot of gear, and it doesn't show. I don't even have a Leatherman on my belt. It's the same with airline travel. Pack it right and carry it right, and it's invisible. I haven't ever gone through an airport Security Checkpoint with all the stuff I wrote about on this thread, but I have carried an awful lot of crap, -- and since 9/11 -- and you can't see it. Even Security personnel don't notice most of it, and they're actually looking. No one thinks twice about a plastic poncho, aluminized blanket, gloves, sun hat, watch cap or ultra-compact unbrella when they are in jacket pockets. A small roll of duct tape, a small disposable lighter or matches, a pad of paper and a pen, a plastic whistle on a keychain... these things don't even register on the mental radar. "Travel" items also are perfectly normal for airline travelers. Hidden wallets, smoke hoods, toiletries (including mirrors), food & drink (including water and sodas), hotel door portable security alarms, flashlights, etc. Checkpoint Officers see all of this stuff every day. "I never travel without a First Aid Kit." "Oh, that's smart..." And if you have a one-line justification that sounds normal enough to the Security Officer for any of the things you can't make invisible, then there's no problem. "I'm going boating when I get there. This is my Float Coat, and I always keep that stuff in the pocket in case I'm washed over in bad weather" "Oh, okay... It's only plastic, and not sharp, so I guess we'll let you keep it..." (Gee, thanks.) All of this gear is completely legitimate.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>My personal objections to the restrictions on airline flights has nothing at all to do with feeling that I might need survival gear if the plane crashes- it has something to do with the differences between what happened with Flight 93 and the other three commandeered planes on 9/11, the unknown number of lives on the ground that were saved, and the number of lives that were lost because passengers and crew were so carefully, and meticulously, and self-righteously made completely helpless.<p><hr></blockquote><p>I totally and wholeheartedly agree. I'm more worried about losing my checked bag than hijackings or crashes, but I hate that airplanes are prepackaged, inspected and approved containers full of helpless victims just waiting for anyone who is creative or determined enough to circumvent security measures to do with as they please.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>That, and I have SOME concern about the high likelihood of being in a strange city, for who knows how long, without my “urban” PSK. Sure, I can probably check a lot more than they’ll let me carry on, but the chances of my transferring stuff from the checked luggage to my person before reaching a hotel room are pretty small, and the chances of the airline losing my luggage are excellent.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Hmm... I guess here's where my real concern lies. But, that's a different thread. I always carry whatever portion of my EDC gear is legal at the destination, and I always transfer all the appropriate stuff from my checked baggage to my person before leaving the airport. And, I've only ever had a bag misplaced once, so I can't agree that the odds of a bag being lost are "excellent". I don't expect it will happen -- I don't expect anything "will" happen -- only that it can.

Ok, so... I can accept that it has some value as a mental exercise... and I can accept that in the spirit of brainstorming, maybe it's better to throw out ideas first and critique them as a seperate step later. And some of the ideas you've put forth certainly do have value...<br><br>but are you really thinking about taking a snorkel, flotation jacket, and mask onboard in case the plane goes down in the water?<br><br>This mental image comes up of someone approaching an airport security gate so equipped, walking in fins.... :-)<br><br>(Wondering now whether I checked or carried mine the last time I came back from Key West. I'm PRETTY sure I checked it. Anyway, the flight wasn't over water, so I certainly didn't have that use in mind. )

I agree getting off the plane and facing survival in the urban jungle is a real consern. So why not mail your normal PSK to you destination (if possible) and pick it up when you arrive? That way you don't have to worry about what can be taken onboard. This is a technique that is practiced all the time in backpacking.

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>but are you really thinking about taking a snorkel, flotation jacket, and mask onboard in case the plane goes down in the water?<br><br>This mental image comes up of someone approaching an airport security gate so equipped, walking in fins.... :-)<p><hr></blockquote><p>Heh. Well, I hope I never go that extreme...<br><br>Thinking about? Well, sure. I'm thinking about...<br><br>Would I do it? Depends on how stylin' the coat looks. And how cold the weather is at my origin or destination.<br><br>But let's be clear.<br><br>I'm not talkin' 'bout an oddball-lookin' attention-grabbin' Life Vest like this:<br><br><br>I'm talkin' 'bout a sharp lookin' Float Coat like this:<br><br><br><br>If you're gonna be carryin' a jacket anyway, it might as well look good. And float. And keep you warm. And have cargo pockets for gear. And be brightly colored so you're easier to find. And...<br><br>They only problem with 'em is they use closed cell foam for their insulation & buoyancy. Like any closed cell or already inflated PDF, it can prevent you from being able to swim down under the water to reach a submerged exit, so you might have to leave it behind if you don't get out before the exits go under the water.<br><br>And, the more I think about it, a folding or two-piece snorkel, nose clip & swim goggles would all fit in a pocket nicely. Invisible. "Oh, I always leave those in there. That's the jacket I wear when boating (or yacht racing, whichever you think sounds better )." "Oh, okay..."<br><br>Swim fins... hmm...<br>(just kidding )

I don't think I would bother with a snorkel, even if there were a likelihood that I would wind up in the water. I have bobbed in the water for longish periods (the longest was about 45 minutes) at the end of a dive, trying to hook up with the boat and it is better to attain maximum buoyancy, inflating the BC, and dropping the weight belt, to get up out of the water as high as possible. I never used my snorkel at all in any of these situations.<br><br>In a survival situation, you should strive to get out of the water and up onto or into something in order to combat the hypothermia that will soon be setting in. The single most useful items you can possess is a wetsuit or survival suit if you go into the drink. There is a good history of the utility of wetsuits around the Channel Islands during vessel sinkings. Those who go into the water suited survive, those who don't, don't.<br><br>Snorkels are great for swimming on the surface, but if you are drifting along with the current, they are hardly critical. On the occasion of my 45 minute exposure, the current was taking us to the island, so I relaxed and computed the distance to the closest fresh water source, head comfortably out of the water.<br><br>These situations are much more likley to arise from boat sinkings than airline crashes.

Hmmm. I knew you weren't talking about a Mae West. Have you ever worn a float coat? With respect, making it difficult to dive is hardly the only problem with them. They also tend to be stiff and bulky, making it somewhat harder to move freely and increasing fatigue on long watches, they are hotter than Hades when you don't want them to be, and most are about as breathable as a ziplock bag- they tend to be moving saunas unless it's pretty cold. They don't compress much at all, so even if you take it off and carry it on the airliner, it's going to be unusually hard to stow, for a jacket. There are reasons most yachtsmen opt for separate flotation and foul weather gear.<br><br>I've never seen a folding snorkel- I don't doubt they exist, but if anyone has a link for one I'd like to see a picture (my favorite so far is an Ocean Master). I know a little about yacht racing, but I've never heard of any crew carrying a snorkel and swim goggles in a pocket.. I think that would make you famous in such circles pretty quickly. :-) <br><br>I think your experience with the security at airports must be different than mine. Even back in the decades before 9/11 I got some hassle for a hiking staff (solid wood), a set of juggling clubs about as lethal as plastic detergent bottles, and a ceramic statuette.

I have very fond memories of a float coat I literally wore out over a ten year period, using primarily on power boats, but also on an occasional sail (around the SoCal Channel Islands, where 50 degree water, fog, and wind were common). Comfortable, warm, and highly practical - no problems with breathability. They were perfect for skiffing operations and surf work. Somewhat to my surprise, several of us found them very practical for paddling a sit on top kayak, especially when combined with wet suit bottoms. I never wound up wearing one in the water, but mine (I believe it was a Mustang) had a fold up neoprene beavertail which would protect the crotch area, greatly enhancing survivability while immersed. The biggest problem with them is that they lose floatation capability through time - by the time someone discarded mine for me, I doubt that it was anywhere near its original specs.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>That, and I have SOME concern about the high likelihood of being in a strange city, for who knows how long, without my “urban” PSK. Sure, I can probably check a lot more than they’ll let me carry on, but the chances of my transferring stuff from the checked luggage to my person before reaching a hotel room are pretty small, and the chances of the airline losing my luggage are excellent. <br>-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>This is my main concern exactly, when traveling, and why I posted the question in the first place. The pilots dont want to crash, thats the main point. But loosing your checked in baggage, that happens regularly. I always trie to carry a cabin bag with basics on board. I just wanted to know what was allowed or what you guys thougt about it.<br><br>Stefan, Sweden