Molf,

I have been a shooter for the last 30+ years. The only way a .22 is a self defense gun is if you can hit your adversary in the brain stem. This would work in an ambush situation where you know where the person is going to be and you have a gun set up that is accurate enough to hit the brain stem.

A .22 is not going to stop someone quick enough to prevent them from harming you. Most people that have been shooting for some time like to have at least a .40 S&W or .357 mag. for personal protection. A handgun only has a 25% probability of killing someone.

If your adversary is agitated, or on drugs, your ability to stop them with a firearm goes way down. To stop them you have to damage the central nervous system or cause a rapid loss of blood pressure. A .22 is not up to the job.

If I had to use a .22 for self defense I suspect the best strategy would be to aim for the hip joints. If you cause them to no longer be able to ambulate you have prevented them from coming after you. This a strategy hunters use on dangerous game. They shoot the joints to prevent the animal from reaching them. Then they are able to take a head shot at their leisure.

On the other hand if they have a gun you better hope they are a bad shot

I would say .38Special, 9mm Mak, or 9mm Para as a minimum. Less recoil, particularly with smaller pistols or smaller hands.

Some disclaimers on my part seem to be in order:

I've carried a M1911 45 ACP for a little over 30 years; usually my personal one. These days I feed it a steady diet of Rem 230gr Golden Sabers because my pistol likes them so much. I started shooting a M1911 exactly 41 years ago (I will never forget that heady time! I was just a kid and it was FUN with WWII and WWI surplus ammo - no misfires, even with WWI ammo.) I trust my M1911 and what I can do with it.

I carry a Redhawk (first model) 44 Rem Mag or a very heavily loaded Blackhawk 45 Colt on forays into the wilds and have done so for the same amount of time (not quite as long for the Redhawk, as it was not around 30 years ago). I have cleanly taken much game with the Blackhawk, but never seem to have the Redhawk with me when opportunity presents itself. I trust my Blackhawk and what I can do with it, and am confident of the (unproven to me) 44 Rem Mag out of my Redhawk.

I have hunted and taken large dangerous game and completely understand (and have used) the break-down shot on the front shoulders. That takes more precise shot placement than some realize and I know from a VERY exciting experience that only breaking one of the two shoulders (impossible angle) does NOT accomplish the job <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> - I almost got whacked that time.

Sometimes I carry a semi-auto 22 - but never for anything more than small game, and if in wild country, it is secondary to a shoulder arm. I totally agree with everyone who wrote that it is not a good choice for a self-defense caliber. I knew a man who had killed many people with a 22 lr pistol. He thought it was peachy and for decades afterwards carried a small high quality 22 lr chambered semi auto exclusively. He was an amazing shot with it. I say I knew him, because he's been missing for a few years now. The best theory is that his body is at the bottom of an abandoned mine shaft - he confused effectiveness as (what amounts to) an assasination weapon with effectiveness in a confrontation (I'm sure of that part, from many conversations with him). He had some pretty nasty enemies in the form of a regional drug running group of locals. (His locale, not mine.)

I've never shot a PERSON with a 22. The only person I know who had and others I have read agree that with a 22 lr, the definitely lethal shot is a close range heart shot. The (few) pundits who discuss it claim that the best bet in a confrontation is to place as many shots as possible in the center of torso, and that jives with what I've been told is the most reliable shot on a person with a 22. Lethality does not have to equal incapacitating, of course - that's just not very probable with a 22. I understand all that.

I do not believe that the 22 has enough frontal area, velocity, momentum, energy, Taylor KO, or whatever theory one believes in to be effective at disabling an attacker with non-lethal hits. It MAY disable an attacker in sufficiently short order with lethal hits, albeit probably not instantly. As best as I have been able to determine, the only RELIABLE lethal hit is the heart. I'm sure that there are other bad places, like under the chin and angled back (contact shot), maybe an orbital shot that angles up, and possibly even a vertebrae shot, although that would take luck in getting betwwen two vertibrae - 22 doesn't have enough pizazz on an adult to smash thru a heavy bone. Torso hits obviously have a higher probablility of hitting vitals like heart, liver, and lungs.

<shrug> That's all just a bunch of hot air from me, 'cause like I wrote, I've never shot a person with a 22. I'd rather have a 22 and a good knife than just the knife, tho. And best of all, I'd greatly prefer to never have to point a weapon at anyone again. One does what one must do, according to the situation.

Hope that clarifies where I was coming from! My original intent was to give the best answer I could to Molf's serious question. In any event, my absolutely last post on this topic, as I have no additional information to share on this topic.

Regards,

Tom

I would never carry a .22 for self defense (if I had an option), but do not underestimate its ability to incapacitate or kill.

I know personally three people that were shot with a .22LR.

The first was a 12 year old that accidentally shot his best friend in the forehead (Tragic and stupid). Dropped like a rock and died instantly.

#2 was a 16 year old boy rabbit hunting with his dad. The son went in some bushes to relieve himself. His dad heard the rustling in the bushes and took a shot (stupid). The son was hit in the abdomen. He felt a burning sensation and blacked out. Never knew what hit him till after he regained consciousness.

#3 was a man “cleaning” his gun when he accidentally shot himself in the foot (stupid). The bullet did amazing things inside his foot, bouncing around and tearing things up. I think the bullet finally ended up in his calf muscle. It put him down hard.

These were not defensive shots, but still anecdotally show the capabilities of a .22LR.

In my opinion, placement will always be more critical than caliber. The problem with placement is the countless variables that occur in a gunfight. There is no way for certain that you can control exactly where the projectile travels or ends in the body (or outside the body for that matter). Even if you were to place the firearm in a Ramsom Rest and strap the bad guy to a wall, the exact pathway of the bullet through tissue and bone cannot be determined for certain. The reason I use a larger than .22LR is to provide some fudge factor. Larger calibers or higher energies will provide better, more consistent results with less than ideal placement.

Personally I feel the biggest problem with .22 for self defense is reliability. Overall the ammo/primer is not as consistent, and the gun/ammo combination seems more prone to jamming or misfiring compared to center-fire ammo/firearms. Never carry a firearm for serious social purposes till you have run several hundred rounds up the pipe without failure. Never skimp on the quality of the ammo. “Care enough to send the very best”.

Regardless of caliber, placement, tactics etc. there are no guarantees in a gunfight. The best you can do is attempt to stack the odds in your favor.

My priorities:

#1 reliability- a gun that doesn’t go bang or jams is not your friend.
#2 placement- A miss or a wing shot will not get the job done.
#3 caliber- improving the odds of any given shot “stopping” the baddie.

My 2 cents, TR

Seeing how this thread played out I must admit that I was pleased that the discussion remained civil, non-political, and, for the most part, tasteful. It just proves that the subject of guns as a survival tool can indeed be discussed rationally as long as people mind their manners and keep to the subject. Good job!

Regards, Vince

It helps if no escapees from the kids table are chiming in. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And for our serious teenage members, I didn't mean you. You get to sit at the adults table, you've earned it.