Is anyone out there how uses .22 rimfire for selfdefence or has some experience with this caliber on this issue?

I know there´ll be better solutions for combat but I like my .22 for it´s weight, silencer performance, survival hunting capabilities, worldwide ammo availablity and so on.

Can you give some hints and suggestions to me?

I see people here that catch birds with snares and fish hooks, so my guess is yes, your rifle, whatever caliber it is, will help you catch animals to survive... *sigh*.

Trauma surgeons consider the .22 the worst wound to work with. Aside from a very small tearing wound channel the external lubricant introduces all manner of nasties.
The inherent accuracy and ease of shooting also make it a prime tool. A handgun's role is to stop the assailant from stopping you: not kill ,maim or introduce nasty wound channels for doctors. There are documented shootings where the .22 worked: and there are others where full magazines or chambers of .45acp and .44magnums DID NOT. So there literaly is no 'magic bullet' If this is what you have, practice and be as good as you can be.

A self defense firearm should stop an assailant and should stop quickly. A 22 can work, but a .45 can too and will work quicker...most of the time. You will not find a large body of experimental evidence on using 22 for self defense since there are so many better choices. You will find a lot of anecdotal evidence of 22 being used both sucessfully and unsucessfully.

Bullet selection doesn't really matter at such low velocity and the difference between HP and solids isn't a really big deal when talking about 22's.

The key is shot placement, and with a 22, you want headshots, not chest/center of mass shots, to get the most reliable "stop" IMO.

YMMV.

As others have stated, a .22 is capable of being used in self-defense, but probably not the best choice. However, the old saying is that the 22 in your pocket is better than the 45 that you left at home. So if because of size/weight, you decide that the 22 is the best that you will carry, then carry it happily. The .22 will also have some benefits as far as also being able to take small game without destroying all of the meat, so it is a true multi-purpose device.

Chris: The reason that trauma surgeons don' tlike .22 is because that is what they see. .22 victims go to the ER. .45 victims go to the coroner <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Results may be like the stories of the guys who stopped a Grizz with a 22 rifle. You don't hear about the ones who tried .... and got eaten.
You'll hear a lot of commentary about the 22 being an inadequate choice for a defense pistol, (and I believe it is). On the other hand, imagine what it's like being HIT with one (or several).
As the previous post said, it's better than not having one.

There is nothing so frightening as ignorance in action.

I have a very small .22 pocket gun that I carry at times. I feel good about having it, in that it is better than not having one at all. It would cause a perpetrator to turn me loose, for example. While it isn't a .45, I can carry it places I couldn't carry a .45. So it has its place. I suppose my point would be there is no perfect gun. As a previous writer said, be a good shot with what you have. Police use larger calibers, but are notoriously poor shots, and they spend much time on the range. Laser grips might be a consideration, too, if your model gun and/or budget allow. They markedly improve accuracy, and can be a formidable deterrent in and of themselves.

Bee, are you a vegitarian? I'm justing asking.

Vegans already graze. We'll eat them after the cows.

Yep... .22 or .25... go for the Italian lobotomy, field proven by La Cosa Nostra time and time again <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Troy

AMEN, Brother <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Troy

"Vegans already graze. We'll eat them after the cows."

I love vegans.... They taste like chicken! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

MMMMmmmmm...
Vegan-loaf
Vegan on a stick
Vegan Kabobs
Vegan-roni
BBQ-Vegan
Teriaki Vegan
Roast Vegan Sandwiches.
Vegan Chops
Vegan Tacos

MY favorite cook book, "To Serve Man" <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

TR (Getting tired of eating dogs and cats)

That's a sick sense of humor, but I LIKE it <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Troy

Use the ammunition that is most reliable in your pistol (proper feeding and ejection and absence of misfires).

Strongly disagreeing with another post: DON'T plan on head shots. That is an unreliable caliber on human skulls; there is over 100 years strong evidence of this. And the brain on a moving person is a small and evasive target to boot. Practice for multiple torso hits, preferably in the vicinity of the heart.

The "insurance" shot for this caliber has always been reported to be a single round in the heart at point blank range. I suspect, but do not know, that abdominal hits can be disuasive, but they are probably not an immediate deterent.

See if you can locate Kenny Eto, formerly of Chicago. I believe he is currently in the witness protection program. In '83, his colleagues decided to retire Ken, with three rounds from a .22 to the back of his head. None of the rounds penetrated. Ken than began to sing a long and beautiful song.

If I remember correctly, the shooters ended their careers in the back of a trunk.

Gerry

This is the problem witht the 22. I agree with the above and disagree with my own advice. Ask me again in 12 hours and I will have switched.

A 22 thru the eye socket is a great shot. It also my glance off the frontal bone of the skull if a forehead shot is attempted.

BUT.... a heavy jacket and hitting a rib in the chest without penetrating....you have just made your assailant mad. And a 22 caliber hole in the heart is not an instant stopping shot.

There is the problem with the 22....no good, more often than not, reliable shot to be attempted and practiced.

Once again, let's hear it for the venerable ol' .45 <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Troy

O.K. lets keep it civil Or I'll have Fat Tony come over and dump your PSKs in the shag carpeting.

Question: Why are you concerned about silencer performance? In addition to being a detrement to accuracy,
they are subject to a Federal license/transfer fee and are prohibited by many states.
If you do become envolved in a shooting, the last thing you need to explain is why you had to use a silenced weapon. Leave the silencers to the "company" (CIA), special operations people and the family.

Twi Rules to Live By:
"There is nothing so frightening as ignorance in action."
"When in doubt, empty the magazine."

I've seen 22 solids go thru 2x4s and plywood, and I gotta think that hitting a kneecap or shin bone, or even a foot shot would pretty much make that limb useless.

When I shoot sub-caliber for self defense, I always aim at or below the belt buckle. Most times the fight's over if they can't walk anymore. In fact, the same goes for sd loads on the shotgun.

Even major caliber head shots are a waste of ammo in a self defense situation.

For what it's worth, the 22 lr is a more suitable sd cartridge than the 25 acp. Standard loads are more powerful, the weapon selection is better, and both cartridge and firearm are more economical.

Now there was a time when a company named Grendel made a nice semi auto about the size of a springfield 45 that chambered the 22 mag, with a detachable box magazine that held 30 rounds. It wasn't a particularly high quality firearm, but it was reliable enough, and the muzzle blast on that 3" barrel made it look and sound like a 357 magnum, especially at night. Yep, you could get everyone's attention with that little shooter.

Personally, I think the 45 acp is the minimum effective self defense cartridge. Of course, like someone else said, it ain't much for small game hunting, especially if it's meat for the pot.

No, for God's sake no, i'm not a vegetarian! <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My reply was slightly ironic, I mean... silencer performance... come on. Isn't this more related to urban close quarters combat than hunting for your survival?

Maybe i'm just too touchy. Just my opinion. On a lighter note, you should taste my rabbit pie... it's awesome! Had some people come over last weekend and they were drooling for a second piece! Tee hee! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"There are documented shootings where the .22 worked: and there are others where full magazines or chambers of .45acp and .44magnums DID NOT."

There are documented cases of a person being shot with a full magazine of .44/.45 and not being stopped?! I find that very hard to beleive(unless they're wearing armor), but if so I'd like to hear the full story on that.

P.S. What's with all the hostility against vegetarians? If people chose to live a life that avoids unnecessary killing, why hold it against them?

What hostility to vegetarians ? This thread is again slipping out of the ETS focus. And again, there are several excellent forums on firearms where people can debate shots to the occipital orb to their unwounded hearts delight. One of many incidents I know of involves two gang members of the Oxnard Satanas ( california filipino gang.) They were in a dispute over drugs, both high on meth and went mano a mano in a hallway. Satanas #1 inflicted 7 non life threatening .45 acp wounds to his opponent, who then took aim with a .22 and killed him with a shot to the heart. You will recall the U.S. Army during our rather brutal subjugation of the Philipines re issued SAA's to stop moro fanatiks- and even those sometimes failed. I think the moral is to avoid Moros- in Luzon and Oxnard. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Unless I misread his post, he is not a US citizen and several European countries are not as bizzare with silencer restrictions as we are in the US.

In my limited experience with them, silencers actually make practice sessions a bit more pleasant and a properly designed one has no adverse effects on accuracy. Actually, there are several weapon systems that are MORE accurate with the silencer than without (The ones I am aware of are centerfire rifles, to be sure).

OTOH - since you brought it up - if I have to use a firearm in self defence, I WANT it to make a large noise - to alert others. I mean, it's theoretically possible that I would miss... nah, probably not...

TiC,

Tom

It isn't hostility, I've dated a couple and my cousin is one. I just like to tease. And vegans do taste better. (If you don't get it, don't worry, you are too young to get hte joke.)

As for the ability to take 5, 6, 7 hits from something in the .4"+ class and keep coming, there are a number of cases. Drugs, booze, shock from another injury, and just being really, really mean and angry have all done it.

There was a guy in the early '90s who was sitting in a park threatening people with a shotgun and a couple of pistols, I don't remember where. When the cops showed up, he shot at them, so they called for tactical support. Long story short, a .308 Federal Match to the forehead, and he's in prison today, not the ground. His skull was thick enough to shed most of the injury, so not quantifiable brain damage.

Scared the snot out of the the guys in the morgue, I bet.

What world do you live in? Most cops shoot once or twice a year. Then only because they have to. Many cops carry guns because it's part of the uniform. My department just cancled the night/incliment weather shoot because it was too cold for the "office jocks" to be outside at -5 degrees. It doesn't stop some of us gun nuts, but most cops can't or don't shoot, period.

I'll get off my soap box before some starts throwing tomatos or worse. A hit with a .22 is far better than a miss with any other caliber. If you want one, it's cheap to shoot so practice, practice, practice...until you don't miss at the distance of the longest room in your home. I've been known to carry a .22LR mini revolver in the past and have shot it so much that it has been sent to the factory thrice after it went out of time. To be fair there was between 3000 and 5000 rounds shot through it each time. However with any handgun but especially a smaller caliber if you need to use it for defence, keep shooting until the bad guy has stopped his assault.

Take care and Stay Safe

Wow, what a mass of receptions to my post! I haven?t imagined that this could be so interesting to others ...

Let me explain some more on my intention on this toppic:
It?s right I?m not living CONUS but that?s not the point. I?ve to travel through out the world on duty demand as one of the so called "Brooks Brothers Brigade" <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />and unfortunately not all places I see are very hospitable to foreigners. Often I can?t trust there in the officials like police or so. I?ve to stand trouble on my own.
Under these circumstances I wish to have one lightweight, reliable and sometimes silent weapon on me.
I?ve to avoid alerting anyone when using it for selfdefence or hunting while on my long way home as a "fugitive".
Don?t get me wrong: I?m not James Bond ! I only want to get home to my beloved wife under any (!) circumstances !

Molf

Chris,

Send Fat Tony over and I'll be drizzling butter over his blubbery carcass and eating him too. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Just funnin' around. I've got nothing against vegans and don't even know Fat Tony. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

TR (going back to less controversial topics like firearm use).

Fat Tony? The Simpsons? DUH!

Ahhh, that Fat Tony. In that case, we shall stew him in Duff!

I might suggest something a bit bigger in that case, but if possible, get several handguns. I often suggest that if you need to carry in a some what sub rosa capacity, that you carry something common to that part of the world.

I'll also point out that places that unlikely to like travelers often have very strict regs on bringing in things that go "bang".

"Fat Tony? The Simpsons? DUH! "

Don't you mean, "D'oh!!!" <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

TR

Good one, pizzaman... not too often that somebody catches the MASTER <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Troy

You are making me cry! I wish I could use a silencer/suppressor! <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Sorry Craig, It wasn?t my intention to upset you or anyone else! <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Here were I live are only a few people who have a decent knowledge on firearms and even less who have experience about using them for another intended purpose then hunting or target shooting.
I?m clearly glad to live among such people. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> On the other hand I?m not always here but often elsewere ...
I?ve asked my question here at this forum knowing that its members aren?t airheaded fools like some of those that lurk around at some unsound forums that have been related to firearms only.

I hope this calms your nerve a little bit ... <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Molf

Well, I´ve been in trouble with those "strict regs" some times befor without having "things that go "bang" and it was on me to chose either to go to a so called prison or to hit the road and evade without been noticed till beyond the boarder. That was a very "uncomfortable" experience.
My job gets me into trouble sometimes but I´m not guarded by diplomatic immunity or something like, therefore I´ve to prepare on my own.

OK, ironraven, plain-talking !
What in your opinon would be recommendable for east europe and the far east?

What exactly is your job?

I´m sourcing commodities and qualifying suppliers for my employer from all over the world but my mainfields of activity are the former east europe, north and middle asia and the far east. Fortunatly not the near east.
Within sometimes I clashes with "criminal structures" that trys to hold up monopolys.
The line between funny business, criminals, official, clerks and politicans are often floating, so I´ve to handle with any of them.
It´s easy as long as it all runs in a correct way we know it from our western world ... but sometimes situation switches from one moment to the next and you find yourself in a really hostille situation. The very different mentalitys bring up additional problems sometimes.

... but the jobs quiet well paid and I can see a lot and learn much more - I love it !

Eastern Europe? Easy, something that uses 9mm Makarov. AFAIK, it is still widely used as a military and police cartridge, and easy to get ahold of. That being said, I'm not sure how much that has changed in the past few years. Also keep in mind that I'm suggesting a military/police cartridge becuase it is easier to get ahold of on the ground, not because it might be easier to bring into the country.

In the Far East, 9mm Parabellum is pretty much the standard. Heck, the Russians are switching to it if they can every afford to, so it might the global gold standard. Well, silver, any way. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But... EVERYONE uses .22LR, I just like something that has a bit more oomph.

Ah, logistics.

I can see how you might annoy some people, yes. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok now things make sense.
Sounds interesting.

Molf,

I have been a shooter for the last 30+ years. The only way a .22 is a self defense gun is if you can hit your adversary in the brain stem. This would work in an ambush situation where you know where the person is going to be and you have a gun set up that is accurate enough to hit the brain stem.

A .22 is not going to stop someone quick enough to prevent them from harming you. Most people that have been shooting for some time like to have at least a .40 S&W or .357 mag. for personal protection. A handgun only has a 25% probability of killing someone.

If your adversary is agitated, or on drugs, your ability to stop them with a firearm goes way down. To stop them you have to damage the central nervous system or cause a rapid loss of blood pressure. A .22 is not up to the job.

If I had to use a .22 for self defense I suspect the best strategy would be to aim for the hip joints. If you cause them to no longer be able to ambulate you have prevented them from coming after you. This a strategy hunters use on dangerous game. They shoot the joints to prevent the animal from reaching them. Then they are able to take a head shot at their leisure.

On the other hand if they have a gun you better hope they are a bad shot

I would say .38Special, 9mm Mak, or 9mm Para as a minimum. Less recoil, particularly with smaller pistols or smaller hands.

Some disclaimers on my part seem to be in order:

I've carried a M1911 45 ACP for a little over 30 years; usually my personal one. These days I feed it a steady diet of Rem 230gr Golden Sabers because my pistol likes them so much. I started shooting a M1911 exactly 41 years ago (I will never forget that heady time! I was just a kid and it was FUN with WWII and WWI surplus ammo - no misfires, even with WWI ammo.) I trust my M1911 and what I can do with it.

I carry a Redhawk (first model) 44 Rem Mag or a very heavily loaded Blackhawk 45 Colt on forays into the wilds and have done so for the same amount of time (not quite as long for the Redhawk, as it was not around 30 years ago). I have cleanly taken much game with the Blackhawk, but never seem to have the Redhawk with me when opportunity presents itself. I trust my Blackhawk and what I can do with it, and am confident of the (unproven to me) 44 Rem Mag out of my Redhawk.

I have hunted and taken large dangerous game and completely understand (and have used) the break-down shot on the front shoulders. That takes more precise shot placement than some realize and I know from a VERY exciting experience that only breaking one of the two shoulders (impossible angle) does NOT accomplish the job <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> - I almost got whacked that time.

Sometimes I carry a semi-auto 22 - but never for anything more than small game, and if in wild country, it is secondary to a shoulder arm. I totally agree with everyone who wrote that it is not a good choice for a self-defense caliber. I knew a man who had killed many people with a 22 lr pistol. He thought it was peachy and for decades afterwards carried a small high quality 22 lr chambered semi auto exclusively. He was an amazing shot with it. I say I knew him, because he's been missing for a few years now. The best theory is that his body is at the bottom of an abandoned mine shaft - he confused effectiveness as (what amounts to) an assasination weapon with effectiveness in a confrontation (I'm sure of that part, from many conversations with him). He had some pretty nasty enemies in the form of a regional drug running group of locals. (His locale, not mine.)

I've never shot a PERSON with a 22. The only person I know who had and others I have read agree that with a 22 lr, the definitely lethal shot is a close range heart shot. The (few) pundits who discuss it claim that the best bet in a confrontation is to place as many shots as possible in the center of torso, and that jives with what I've been told is the most reliable shot on a person with a 22. Lethality does not have to equal incapacitating, of course - that's just not very probable with a 22. I understand all that.

I do not believe that the 22 has enough frontal area, velocity, momentum, energy, Taylor KO, or whatever theory one believes in to be effective at disabling an attacker with non-lethal hits. It MAY disable an attacker in sufficiently short order with lethal hits, albeit probably not instantly. As best as I have been able to determine, the only RELIABLE lethal hit is the heart. I'm sure that there are other bad places, like under the chin and angled back (contact shot), maybe an orbital shot that angles up, and possibly even a vertebrae shot, although that would take luck in getting betwwen two vertibrae - 22 doesn't have enough pizazz on an adult to smash thru a heavy bone. Torso hits obviously have a higher probablility of hitting vitals like heart, liver, and lungs.

<shrug> That's all just a bunch of hot air from me, 'cause like I wrote, I've never shot a person with a 22. I'd rather have a 22 and a good knife than just the knife, tho. And best of all, I'd greatly prefer to never have to point a weapon at anyone again. One does what one must do, according to the situation.

Hope that clarifies where I was coming from! My original intent was to give the best answer I could to Molf's serious question. In any event, my absolutely last post on this topic, as I have no additional information to share on this topic.

Regards,

Tom

I would never carry a .22 for self defense (if I had an option), but do not underestimate its ability to incapacitate or kill.

I know personally three people that were shot with a .22LR.

The first was a 12 year old that accidentally shot his best friend in the forehead (Tragic and stupid). Dropped like a rock and died instantly.

#2 was a 16 year old boy rabbit hunting with his dad. The son went in some bushes to relieve himself. His dad heard the rustling in the bushes and took a shot (stupid). The son was hit in the abdomen. He felt a burning sensation and blacked out. Never knew what hit him till after he regained consciousness.

#3 was a man “cleaning” his gun when he accidentally shot himself in the foot (stupid). The bullet did amazing things inside his foot, bouncing around and tearing things up. I think the bullet finally ended up in his calf muscle. It put him down hard.

These were not defensive shots, but still anecdotally show the capabilities of a .22LR.

In my opinion, placement will always be more critical than caliber. The problem with placement is the countless variables that occur in a gunfight. There is no way for certain that you can control exactly where the projectile travels or ends in the body (or outside the body for that matter). Even if you were to place the firearm in a Ramsom Rest and strap the bad guy to a wall, the exact pathway of the bullet through tissue and bone cannot be determined for certain. The reason I use a larger than .22LR is to provide some fudge factor. Larger calibers or higher energies will provide better, more consistent results with less than ideal placement.

Personally I feel the biggest problem with .22 for self defense is reliability. Overall the ammo/primer is not as consistent, and the gun/ammo combination seems more prone to jamming or misfiring compared to center-fire ammo/firearms. Never carry a firearm for serious social purposes till you have run several hundred rounds up the pipe without failure. Never skimp on the quality of the ammo. “Care enough to send the very best”.

Regardless of caliber, placement, tactics etc. there are no guarantees in a gunfight. The best you can do is attempt to stack the odds in your favor.

My priorities:

#1 reliability- a gun that doesn’t go bang or jams is not your friend.
#2 placement- A miss or a wing shot will not get the job done.
#3 caliber- improving the odds of any given shot “stopping” the baddie.

My 2 cents, TR

Seeing how this thread played out I must admit that I was pleased that the discussion remained civil, non-political, and, for the most part, tasteful. It just proves that the subject of guns as a survival tool can indeed be discussed rationally as long as people mind their manners and keep to the subject. Good job!

Regards, Vince

It helps if no escapees from the kids table are chiming in. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And for our serious teenage members, I didn't mean you. You get to sit at the adults table, you've earned it.