[rant on]
The starting point has been the horrible (and nonetheless stupid) death of two teenagers, supposedly chased by the police.
Was it hot pursuit or not, nobody knows up to now....

Then the Interior's Minister had some "harsh" words, promising the inhabitants of that poor suburb he would get rid of the "riffraff".
A few months ago, he did speak about "cleaning up" the suburbs.

So, some people resent those words and pretend he insulted the whole community.
And that's a good enough reason to start riots !

Anyway, I don't see what this has to do with what is actually happening : cars, buses, warehouses, nursery schools, a.s.o. burning every night since 11 days.

Some people say all this is due to poverty, unemployement, racial segregation a.s.o...

But I would not say these "incidents" have a political meaning : they burn their own neighbours' cars, people not richer than they are, people already in difficulties up to their throat.. Plain stupid.
If they would burn cars in rich suburbs or destroy more meaningful buildings... then it could eventually be understood as a political statement.
But burning your little brothers/sisters nursery school !?! What is this supposed to mean ??

Now, looking at how things are spreading around in various towns of France, it may not be impossible to see there some kind of organisation...
Are there "political" leaders (or religious extremists ?) behind these riots ? Or are the organisers just drug dealers trying to exploit a bad situation, to prevent police forces to "clean" these suburbs of a few criminal elements ?
Who really knows ?

Or it may simply be a game, a contest between differents "cities", just to see who get the most TV coverage, who "scores" more cars...
Most of these "rioters" are just teenagers, looking for some fun. <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Yes, they can be stupid enough for this to be a valuable explanation ! <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[rant off]
(just my own uneducated opinion)

Look at any of the "race" riots we had here in the 60s and 70s, or after the Rodney King verdict- the same thing.

Humans are stupid, they poo in thier own nests.

Thanks, Frenchy... sounds like the L.A. riots at a different longitude, intellectual midgets striking out at whatever's at hand rather than honest to God protestors hitting tangible, well thought out targets.

Again, stay safe, I'd hate to lose a fellow Hennessy fan.

Troy

I gotta wonder how many riots are 100% anger. I mean, watch video of crowds rioting sometime. Sure, there are some pissed off people there. But I also see a lot of smiles. Those people aren't angry. They're having fun. I think riots attract a much larger, secondary group that uses the riot as an excuse to tear stuff up.

This is probably not true of all riots, or even true during the entire period of a single riot, or true in all areas of a riot, but I think the effect is there. A riot is interactive entertainment with the possibility of free gifts.

I've never understood how a crowd of fans of the winning team in a giving sport can tear up a town, but they do. No anger there... Excited, often drunk, people. A super saturated solution of idiocy just waiting for a reason to crystalize. Someone throws a rock through a window and...

What does logic have to do with it?

People like to destroy stuff. I think it's just the destruction they like, and I don't think it goes farther than that. I suspect there are a lot of terrorist mentalities out there, but they haven't got a cause. Do they really need one? No, I don't think they do.

I think it's mob mentality, lose yourself in the group, hide in the dark, then strike and run.

It happens if a group's sports team doesn't win. It happens if they DO win. It's why soldiers shot the nose off the Great Sphinx. It's why vacant buildings are vandalized. It's why a couple of boys walking down the street have to throw a rock through a window.

Is someone going to pick them out of the mob and arrest them? Probably not, but if they do, there won't be any great penalty for it.

Sue

It looks like a "religion of peace" missionary activity:

They are just spreading "peace" to the infidel.

All of the last nights I´ve seated in front of the TV together with my wife starring with open mouth at the screen. But are we really have to wonder about ?

Have you ever played "DOOM" or "Halflife" or ... ?
It seems to be very entertaining to a lot of people playing such games. But they are virtual.
It´s like the drem to beat up your so much hated boss ...

On one hand of course this could be a good ventile for agressions. On the other hand you are "training" something in which you succeed without any risks but you never can practice in real life (I hope so).

I´ve heared about elite soldiers to often build up similar problems.
They train all day long for years. They are as motivated to do there job as anyone can be. But how often are they allowed to practice what they´re drilled to? (Fortunatly) very seldom to never!

In an other picture it´s like you´re trained for long to play soccer/football/rugby/whatever but you aren´t allowed to practice in a real match. Must be frustating.

Back to the "roiteers". They surely have more violent "dreams" with a cause than most of us that live well situated.
They´re sick of it all and I personally can understand their anger very well.
A lot of them might dream of kicking someones arse and now there is the opportunity to strike back against any. All the hate and anger is able to explode. Imagine how relieving this must be!?! From this point it seems not that irritating to me that you can see a lot of smilling faces in the mob.

Don´t get me wrong. I´m not sympathizing with anyone who behaves like them. All I say is that I can understand the mechanism...

After all has been burned and crushed they´ll have less then ever.
I pity them.

Molf

So... in answer to Sue, Groo, and You... the best most expeditious answer is " Fire on the crowd... chest level ". I know, I know, "That's barbaric!!!", but something needs to be done, and the Big Blue Marble's overpopulated anyway... play by the rules, or get thrown out of the game. Yes I AM a barbarion, thank you!

Troy

Situations like this, you start to appreciate Big Brother's desire for a suite of non lethal crowd control options. Tear gas won't do it... you need something than can "taser" hundreds of people at once.

I think riots would be a lot less effective if (again, yes, I'm on my soapbox) the media would stop giving them center stage. Just a brief "In case you hadn't noticed, we've a bit of unrest in certain areas" would be sufficient. Instead, the riot makes tv which fuels the riot which makes tv which...

ObETS: Yet another reason to have at least a few days supply of food and water. You never really know when you're going to be in a situation where you'd rather not go outside for a while.

Ya got that right!!! Yet another reason I've kept up the Y2K stash... no, I didn't use it then, but it's been cycled/replaced many times, and it's always nice to know you've got a few months worth of chow at hand if all else goes to hell. Besides, I'm constantly eating at last week/month/year's sale prices...Ya gotta love THAT <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Troy

I have no problem with low-lethality kinetics and chemicals. Guys with full-auto paintball guns loaded with pepperballs and solid gelatins, stingball and flash grenades, pepper and tear gas aresols, these are a few of my favorite things. So is using helicopters just off the deck, so the rotor wash pushes back the crowd.

I also like a minigun on the back of a hummer with the first 600 rounds solid tracer. That gets fired over thier heads. That is after the low-leathality stuff and the choppers. If they don't get it by that point, maybe the tracers will get thier attention. If it doesn't, well... Heck, since a minigun is technically a lever action, skip fired rubber bullet off the concrete. 3000 cyclic, yeah, that will get thier attention.

Viva Le Crusade!

I guess we could try it your way... but I had 7.62 hardball in mind <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Troy

AFAIK, it's not the entire population of these suburbs whois riotting/demonstrating.
Yes, there are serious economic/social problems in these areas and these people need more help than tear gas.

IMHO, it's only a few stupid (for sure), disoriented (at the least), manipulated (may be, if only by TVs) teenagers, having some fun.... <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

And exploiting these incidents, reporters and political people try to give them a political meaning...
There are grounds for political unrest, but these events are not related.
Not at first.
But let TV et politics manipulate all this, let them "pour oil over the fire" and then ....... it could really turn into revolt, they just need a little time to succeedl. <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Hi Frenchy

I don't work that far from Seine, Saint-Denis, 10-15 mins down the road. Levallois hasn't been touched so far. There have been a few cars in Massy and Palaiseau that got torched. Three of which on the car park of my residence. But to be honest I think these are profiteers. Set fire to your car blaim it on the riots and claim it off the issurance.

Watching the TF1 and the others I just can't help getting the feeling that the telly is fuelling more of the trouble than informing. "Hey mum did you seem me on telly throwing that...." Like some one said riots make TV.

While the politicians are saying alot, which is part and parcel of being a politicain, I know, aren't actually doing very much. Except of course being seen on telly.

The solution, well I don't believe tear gas, rubber bullets et al will resolve the reason for the riots. I like you believe using such tactics will increase the unrest and give further fuel to the riots.

Helicopters were out last night and the curfews in some districts seemed to have a calming effect with fewer incidents reported this morning. I don't for a second believe this with go away soon. But if people pause for a moment and think a little ( asking a bit much there ) then maybe there will be some hope.

Oooooh oooooh,
it seems to me that violent tendencies are omnipresent even in this forum.
I´ve read here about "fire to the crowd [at] chest level", "7.62 hardball" and so on.

Maybe I didn´t understood the satire in those posts but in my opinion that´s not the toppic to make yokes on.
Especially because our all fellow Frenchy might stick inside this trouble !

I don´t want to affront someone, but before my eyes the behavior of the "revolters" in france and the "restrainers" in this forum start to blur ...
What´s the difference between unmotivated violence against someone/something you don´t know when you´re a stupid teenager or when you´re wearing a uniform and a badge?

I´ve no problems with selfdefence and actions against criminals but indifferent shooting at groops of kids !?
What is enough to expect to be seriously harmed or killed? Lethal action against others or even being in a crowd?
Yes, it´s their own decision to be there but can you rearly demand those damn stupid kids to know waht they´re doing while they´re under those group dynamics?

For sure it might be due to shift the situation after the first revolters have been shoot by lawenforcers but you can´t tell to which side:
They might start to think about their behavior and stay at home - or - total rage and rampage even in other quarters or all over the country?

Did we really have reached this point of "cultur"?
Unfortunatly I didn´t have a solution either...

Molf

I think that one way of dealing with the anger and frustration one gets from watching these rioters is to make jokes about it. Maybe they are in bad taste but I wouldn't assume that people are serious about firing indiscriminately into a crowd.

Especially when aimed fire is much more effective... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regards, Vince

Actually, I'm quite serious about using low leathality kinetic munitions and riot control chemicals.

It is. The media is sensationalizing these clowns. Or at least here, that is how it is sounding in the European media. I might be loosing a few bits in the translations, though.

And I agree with Frenchy, there needs to be something more than a hard response. But that is for next week- to contain the situation is what is needed now.

Thanks Vince, I needed that <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Troy

It happens to be in France. And of course, we love to give it to the French. Next time, for whatever pretense, it may be in any large city with a young angry minority. Remember L.A. after the O.J. civil trial? Remember NYC during the blackouts? Detroit? Newark?

The question is, if you're there, how do get home? Is your everyday carry sufficient to get you out of trouble.

Aaaaaah, I see we´re back at typical ETS-theme : Anyone interessted in a new subject about that at the survival forum?
I´m looking forward to your postings on that there ....

Molf

Gee, I remember the last NYC blackout - crime dropped, fires, mostly due to the use of candles rose

People were amazingly polite - and I know, I got to see a LOT of them, as I was helping out in a Red Cross ERV - by midnight, they had us out on the usualy "fire duty" - going to scenes of house fires to help out - not one of which was "live" by the time we got there - The next afternoon, almost everyone had power, and we were looking for things to do

Summer 2002 blackout in lower Manhattan - no real problems - some fun evacuating the area around the power plant due to asbestos fears - but the populace was calm

1998 blackout in NE Queens - that one turned into a party, at least in MY neighborhood - we broke out the BBQ (as did neighbors) and started cooking - improptu block party in the dark (well, we did break out a coleman lantern)hoods had problems

Is your everyday carry sufficient to get you out of trouble.

Just had a thought... what if your EDC is enough to get you into trouble?

Rioting in progress. You're stopped and searched for whatever reason (block sweep, checkpoint, random search, etc). Ooooooh. Lookee here... bandana (disguise), three, count 'em three ways to start fires, plus something to light (your tinder). Flashlight (You intend to be out after dark, do you?), a knife?? You have a knife? Doesn't look like a multitool to me... looks like a burglary tool.

<img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I'm lucky, in that I live " out in the sticks " (roughly 90 miles from Chicago, Rockford, and Peoria), so I don't see myself getting caught "in the middle", but if circumstances were to put me in the wrong place at the wrong time, I'd be willing to bet that my strategy would be to 1) get to cover, 2) get out of the effected area, and 3) go WELL around the disturbance to get home. While no one can guarranty they won't get caught up in the middle of an uprising of one kind or another, I like to think that my observations of what is going on around me would give me a LITTLE warning that it's time to get out of Dodge. As far as EDC for this type of situation goes... well, generally, firearms as weapons are best left to other forums.

Troy

Just had a thought... what if your EDC is enough to get you into trouble?

Excellent point, Groo. It's a balancing act. It helps if you look like an upstanding citizen who's just trying to make it home, instead of a revolutionary.

This is probably why all my emergency gear should not be Soldier of Fortune black, huh? I guess I will have to return my Tactical Thigh hoster (holds my granola bars) and Urban Camo BDU's with my Navy Seal/Green Beret/Special Ninja Operations and Tactics (SNOT) medals. Darn it, I did not expect it to draw attention, I was hoping the police would view me as a concered citizen. Figured they would want the help of every overweight wanna-be Rambo type and the advanced training they got from watching A-Team reruns for the last 20 years.

Marc

P.S. sorry for the sarcasism...I am just in a Smart A** mood

I'm same way... most of my stuff is black, mostly because I like black. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Has nothing to do with any sort of imagined association with any military outfit.

I guess we could put "Hello, Kitty" stickers on all the tactical stuff. I don't care if they laugh... in fact, I want them to laugh. The harder they laugh the less chance they'll notice that, underneath those stickers, is some fairly nice gear. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That is not just a thought, a few months ago there was a kidnaping suspect arrested by the police for having a knife, duct tape, and rope in his vehicle. I know none of us would ever have anything like that in our vehicle. Never did hear a follow up report to know whether or not that there was more to the story.

The Media Angle can be a Dificult Balancing Act here. On the one hand, -they've *Got* to Report it. Hopefully Adequately and ACCURATELY. On the other hand, -the prescence of cameras so often *Does* effectively egg on and fuel the riot or whatnot. Even if it be the Model of Accurate, Adequate, Reporting. The Public in such a situation, -also Needs to be so Informed for Reasons of their own Public Safety. (And I'm Not referring to the Danton/French Revolution type of Public Safety, -Frenchy! ) [color:"black"] [/color] [email]groo[/email]

Oh, -Doesn't this make you Long for one of those occasional METEOROLOGICAL Heat Waves in France / Europe, -that you now and then hear of! (Care and Concern for the Hardships, Casualties, etc therein, notwithstanding.). My first thought upon seeing the title of this thread was along these lines. I thought France was having another one!

Then I soon remembered the more recent manmade carryings ons, -which in my being a considerable Francophile, -I was following with Concern and Interest.

And Not to minimize it, -but they did much the same in 68, -and Far More and Worse, -during an otherwise considerably Noble French Revolution!

And we here in America don't have an entirely Clean Slate here ourselves! Let's duly keep our own Kettle in mind, -when we call the French or anyone else's Pots Black!

On such current "Manmade Heat", -I Strongly Stand Behind and Support, -the Firm and Tuff Measures of your Villepin and Chirac, -as much as I've 180 degree Differ with them on Iraq. I've been Inspired by Chirac's statements, -that Law must have the Last Word in the Republic!, -and that there Cannot be pockets of Lawlessness therein!

I also believe in all Due Addressage, -of Legitimate French Immigrant Needs and Concerns.

It would be Interesting to see how DeGualle would Face and Handle it, -were he still around. Though he was for 1968, and that can be Instructive. (Concerning him, -I find it Neat how he specifically Stated that he wanted No Statues, Squares, Avenues, and such to be Named in his Honor! Which I certainly very much Respect! But also in how he overlooked saying anything about a Premiere, Class A, French Airport! "France Cannot be France, -without Giving it's Beloved Affection, Respect, and Honor to one as DeGualle!"). [color:"black"] [/color] [email]frenchy[/email]

The rioters know how to get results on their particular complaint. I think I will use the same method. I am mad about the war in Iraq, so I will go set fire to my neighbors car. Since I am also unemployed, I will go burn down the local MacDonalds. I am really annoyed by Ted Kennedy, so I will go set fire to my other neighbors car. Isn't this new logic effective?

Uh-oh. I just thought of something. I hope my neighbors aren't upset about anything. I'd park my car in the garage if I had one. Maybe I should increase my fire insurance.