As it gets colder, I'm thinking about the change to below freezing temperatures. I've never carried food or water in my car before. I had considered not filling my water container full, to allow for the expansion when the water freezes, and then hope that it I need it I would be able to thaw it somehow (keep it inside the warmed up car maybe). But I'm also wondering about canned food. Do I just let that freeze too, and thaw it and heat it up at the same time?

I am just beginning the car kit process and don't have any sort of stove or heat source yet. Are Sterno type cans affected by freezing temps? Or are there other methods that work well in those cold temps? What do others of you in cold winter climates do? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I tend to carry low moisture foods and enough water to prepare them... but then again, I've also got a Coleman stove and fuel in the back of the Suburban to prepare them on. Canned goods can and will freeze if it gets cold enough, and as such, they'll bulge or burst... not the kind of mess you want in your back seat or trunk. For the short term, jerky and energy bars could probably cover you for a few days, and if you're stuck in your car in the middle of Winter for longer than that, food's not gonna be your biggest problem.

Troy

I'm with Troy on this.

A number of years ago, my wife and I were unexpectedly snowed-in for three days at a friend's cabin outside Cripple Creek, Colorado during a heavy November snowstorm.

Happened on the day we were scheduled to leave, so we'd exhausted the food we brought with us. Had plenty of water, but the only food was two cans of Dinty Moore's Beef Stewleft by the owner, that had been throught the previous season's freeze/thaw cycle. It had turned to mush, but we ate it anyway. Wasn't pleasant; haven't touched the stuff since. (I'm a little smarter now, and wouldn't allow myself to be caught with my pants down, so to speak).

These days, like Troy, car kit includes mostly foodstuff that won't freeze, since we venture beyond the desert, some requiring added water. Kit includes a First Need water purifier (not filter, but purifier), so water needs beyond carried supplies hopefully should be less problematic.

It's gelled methanol, IIRC, so it should be fine down to zero, but it might get a little quirky below that or above, I think 3000 feet. The time to test is now. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I carry a euro-mil surplus alcohal stove that I know will work on HEET drygas, along with a small bag of charcoal and a midget stove that will run off it. I figure between the two, I've got something to cook with.

For the food items, I like things that you don't have to do much with, like granola, cheesie crackers, dried fruit and some small chocolate bars. I am looking for a really good beef jerky I can add, but so far nothing I like and can afford has the staying power I want. I also stuff in a couple packs of raman, but this year I'm also putting in some of the "just add water", premeasured packs of things like rice and mashed potatoes. The Zataran's packs are likely to freeze, but until they do (and go into my indoor supply box), those don't even need to be heated, but they are better hot.

For the water, the old metal GI canteen, if you can find it, is very good, becuase you can thaw the water in it if it freezes, but they are getting harder to find in usable condition. Look at some of the euro-mil stuff, particularly coming out of the old Warsaw Pact nations.

Here in Ohio, I have not had problems so far with water freezing in my car, that said, my car does spend winter nights in a garage, if it were outside all night, my water pouches might freeze. As far as food, I stick mainly with beef jerky, mre breads, crackers and mre cheese spreads [all of which are nearly impossible to find right now due to hurricane relief] and candy bars, which are no big deal if they freeze, many like them frozen in the summertime anyway. Sometimes carry pop tarts as well [but in the heavier style vending packages, not the thin foil in the grocery stores] you can usually find the vending style packages in some of the stores like GFS [gordon food service] if you have any of those in your area.

Try minimus.biz for the spreads. A friend of mine ordered spread packets, including cheese spreads, from them about a week ago. A bit pricy, but they have them.

There is also another site that I ran over a few months ago, epicurious or something like that, don't remember it exactly. They had a bunch of very high end, gourmet items in wet pack retort pouches, including a couple of spiffy sounding spreads and few high brow items like shrimp cocktail.

Corection, it was theepicenter.com, but I don't see the shrimp cocktail any more. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I figured it would make a good trade item. They also seem fresh ouf of the cheese, but give cheapndirt a try.

I was in the Air Force in North Dakota for four years, and we all carried winter survival kits. A few candles to warm the car (with windows cracked), blankets, and food. But back then, it was either C-rations or K-rations, I can't remember which. Freezing had no effect, and all was in metal cans we could heat over a candle. (Be sure you have something to light the candle.)

I used to eat the meals in the spring or summer, so they didn't go to waste, and having been in the car all winter in below-zero temps had no effect on those rations. Of course, who could tell if there _were_ a bad effect on that stuff?

In North Dakota, water was not considered an issue in winter survival. If you got stranded, you had all the water you could want in huge piles outside your car. The issue was staying warm inside the car; blankets, thermal undies, and big boots. Everybody was told to carry a couple of candles and crack the window a little so you didn't die from carbon monoxide, and _don't_ keep the car running, as you could never be sure the exhaust pipe wouldn't be buried in drifting snow.

Mileages vary, locations and dangers vary, neeeds vary. Use your judgment and make your choices.

Good question !!

In France, the Weather Bureau predicts a cold winter, so we are preparing for that, too.
Forget the Sterno can, it won't heat much.

We are presently testing - on a wide scale - the following method :
- leave the freezed can in the car's trunk ;
- open one window ;
- get out of the car and close the door ;
- throw a Molotov cocktail inside the car ;
- wait for the burned out car to cool down a bit ...
- open the trunk (watch your fingers, it's still hot...) and get the can : it should be thawed ....
<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good to hear from you. Any chance you can just stay inside until things quiet down?

How well does that work, exactly? I've never tried (and living in Florida, I don't get the chance much anymore <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

How much of a temperature rise can you expect from a single candle? Seems like cracking the window enough to prevent CO buildup would let in so much cold air it wouldn't be worth doing. Obviously, I'm wrong, just curious if anyone's actually tried this...

I guess you'd want a can or something in which to burn the candle. And it seems like this would have some of the same precautionary warnings that having a flame in a tent would have.

You lower (just a bit) a window on the downwind side of the car, and put the candle(s) on the upwind side. It doesn't bring things up to comfort level, but it does take the edge off the cold... and it gives you a heat source to brew up coffee or cocoa, and the warm drink does as much or more than the candle(s) to chase off the chills.

Troy

hopefully, that method will lose popularity and not be exported anywhere else in the world

Good to hear from ya Frenchy, glad to see you're holding on to your sense of humor. Keep yer head down & stay safe, hope things settle down there soon.

Troy

P.S. I haven't caught up on the particulars, (news over here is way too biased, if it's outside the U.S., coverage is less than thorough) is all the rioting over a lack of jobs???

Thanks for the check in, Frenchy. Keep yourself safe.

For what we are beiing told (as neighbouring country of France) The riot started with some guys who were on the run for the police and hide in a highvoltage cabine and got electrocuted. Now the people are angry because the police were folowing them (altough they deny this).

For what it's worth, If you behave you do not have to run for the police. Second if you hide in a cabin with high voltage / current you are just plain stupid.

I've been carrying canned food and bottled water in the back of my truck without any problems. Temps here range from 0* F. to about 110* F. It is parked inside at night though. I just broke down and bought a case of MRE's so when they arrive the cans will probably be replaced.

Sterno is about perfect for a car kit unless you need to boil something. Even then it will do the job, it just takes awhile. No big deal if you are using it for heat anyway. I keep 4 large cans in the truck. I also pack a single burner white gas Coleman stove, but I wouldn't feel unequipped if all I had was Sterno.

Regards, Vince

<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good to hear from you Frenchy. Stay safe.

Regards, Vince

I never had to try it. As another poster said, it's not going to make you toasty warm -- at 20 or 30 below, not much is. But it can provide the difference between losing some digits or not.

I never worried about setting anything on fire in the car. Keep the flame far enough away you can put your hand on the liner or windshield and keep it there. We carried votive candles -- short and contained -- with the idea of putting them on the console between the seats. You also need to keep in mind that the candle can burn down to the stub and set the car on fire if it's not contained -- you read about people setting their houses on fire letting candles burn down on their night table after they fell asleep. So yes, safety still applies.

Remember a burning car will keep you warm only on one side. So turn about is fair play.

I see those experiments are ongoing. I thought you guys liked things a little underdone? :->

Up here in New England we get some pretty long cold spells (as in several days in a row below zero F) so this is a real issue for me too. Here is how I plan to tackle it this winter...

Lifeboat Supplies.

The SOLAS approved rations from the better companies like Datrex or Mainstay are designed to be good below freezing. They are low thirst, easy to digest, don't require heating and will keep you alive with plenty of calories for a while.

The water packets from Datrex are reported to be very resilient and are capable of being frozen solid. Avoid the "blox" packaging from other companies (look like juice boxes) and stick with the Datrex 4 oz water packets.

Both the rations and the water have a 5 year shelf life and are made just for this kind of thing.

If you need/want to heat them, remember that the rations and water come in retort packaging so MRE heaters should work great with a bit of water. Or the air-activated chemical warmers (various brands) that you put in your gloves, pockets, et al. can be wrapped around them.

Hope this helps,

MedB

It's hard to top Frenchy's cooking method. I dropped an email off to HeaterMeals about their meals in the winter and got a rather helpful reply.

Keep in mind that some have posted here that they hate HeaterMeals. I eat them without any complaints. Try before you have to use them. :-)

The HeaterMeal infoperson says the heating element will not cook a frozen meal. It is expected that the meals will be heated to 100 degrees above the starting temperature, but it can't thaw, then cook the meal. They say the meals are carried by snowmobilers and such, but the meals are carried inside the parka so they don't freeze.

Storage in a hot trunk lowers the shelf life of the meal. Entrees can be frozen without problems, but the HeaterMeal Plus packs have beverages and snacks and should not be frozen.

Meals are cooked, then sealed, so the heater only heats it up. They can be eaten without heating, although I shudder to think of it. (They heat from pouring saltwater on some magnesium -- both included in the package. No flame or other equipment needed.)

Louise and I have them in our grab and stay kit, and we always take a few to Burning Man for when it's too windy to cook and we need a meal. We may have other useful information for winter rations at
http://www.cieux.com/bm/quickMeals.html
which has lists of foods which require little or no preparation.

hey sure !
we would not do that to a good beef steak !!!
but who care for canned meatballs ?!

I think we will let you guys do the R&D on this one and see how it goes. Might try it on my neighbor?s car if the R&D turns out positively.
Watch your 6!! <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I don't want to hijack this thread, so I will start a new thread in the Campfire section, to explain the situation as I see it, if this subject interests anybody. But it's only my point of view..

Hi Frenchy, I would love to hear your take on the current civil disorder situtation. We get a fair bit of news related to France here in Canada, but I never trust any one news source to give the whole story.

I've had several of the 4 oz water packets leak, but with freeze and thaw, I also don't want to trust to rigid containers. For Winter car storage, I keep the 4 oz packets inside Nalgene bottles. You get only about half the volume, but I think it's less danger of leakage all over your car trunk. For food, I also keep the lifeboat rations, and peanut butter.

Yeah, I caught that on the news this morning... I don't know where the work thing came in... and it seems kind of strange to me to burn a trainload of cars over some kids bar-b-queing themselves because of an accute case of paranoia, but then again, some of the riots in this country seem sort of strange (downright stupid) to me too. Thanks for the info/insight.

Troy

I read different things about using beef jerky as survival food. Doesn't the high sodium content keep it from being a good survival food because of all the water needed to drink after?

For those of you that pack energy bars, what are your favorites? I bought a couple while grocery shopping to try, and I was reading labels for calorie content, protein grams, etc. Anyone have a brand that has a good balance of essentials?

You always need water to digest food -- any food. If water shortage is an issue, you probably shouldn't be eating at all.

But that's just my opinion.

Sue

I've heard the Hooah! Energy Bar (developed by the military) isn't too bad, but haven't personally tried. Available at a couple of mainstream outlets, including Wal-Mart and GNC stores. Click on "About the Bar" at bottom of their web page for detailed info.

sure it makes you thirsty, but just about everything does, and I forgot to mention those Mainstay lifeboat bars too, I have some of them also. Even though I haven't tried them, I understand you need to wash those down too.

I discussed much of this in 2 of 3 car kits

Near the bottom is a section on food.

I also talk about Tuna candles and buddy burners. These are an ideal heat source when trapped in a car. They supply an amazing amount of heat. While stuck in a blizzard they might not warm the place up like home but but even with the window cracked for ventilation [ and you better do so unless you want to die] they wiil keep you from becoming apopsicle. Both also generate enough heat to cook with. Unlike regular candles they are very hard to tip over reducing the fire hazzard. Also because of the can even if they burn down to the bottom they won't start a fire because they are contained. Although you should put something between the seats and the can. It will get hot enough toi melt plastic seat covers.

As to jerky. Make your own. That way you control the amount of salt. While it can't be eliminated it can be greatly reduced over commercial brands. Besides that way you can tailor it to your specific tastes. The use a seal-a-meal type deal to pack it for long term storage. Another good choice for winter use is pemican. Not its not the healthest foods but supplies about as many calories in the smallest package. That is what you need to keep the fire stoked in a winter survival situation. Again you can tweek the recipe to meet your desires better. I have also seen recipes that substitute peanut butter for suet. So peanut butter is also a good stand alone product. It is little affected by by cycling temps.

But all foods have a shelf life. Remember to use old products and replace them befor it runs out. The temperature changes that can be faced in a car will probable shorten them in the extreme. Figure generally keeping them only for a single season or a year atmost.