Have been reading sometime, First Post.
What or when do you consider hording as opposed to prepairing?
What would one consider minumin abount of cash to keep on
person; and has anyone tried the civilian MRES?

Thank for your replys. I have searched for this info.

It depends......Are you SOLO? If so then I wouldn't think you would need as much cash as a family of 4. I would seriously consider all of the things you (and the family) might realistically need for (lets say) 5 days. Then figure out how much it might cost you. I'd consider having that on hand. Yes it gets to be a lot. Remember though....money (CASH) talks. Coworkers that went to Mississippi for relief saw this repeatedly. If you have cash and the 'other guy' doesn't....two guesses who will get the stuff (first guess doesn't count).

As for hoarding.....again it depends. I watched a guy with a huge pickup truck with 10- 5 gallon gas cans load up on the stuff and he gave someone the excuse (and it was delivered in a sheepish tone) that he has a lawn service and that he would be, "Needing it anyway." I would consider THAT hoarding. The reason (but more the way he gave it) just appeared to be "manufactured" the moment he was asked. It didn't appear that he really needed it. If you have a reason that a reasonably prudent individual would agree with, than I think it would be more along the way of preparation rather than hoarding.

Just my thoughts

I would not consider filling 10 gas cans as hoarding. Gas doesn't last long if you have a truck to feed, a generator, a cookstove, and even an unprepared neighbor or two. Imagine the trade value of a filled 5 gallon gas can in a post Katrina scenario. I believe rather than using a lame excuse, the correct reply should have been. "I need it, I'm paying for it, why do you care?" MYOB

Immediately following the Northridge earthquake several people tried to buy en mass entire stocks of flashlights from stores. Fortunately managements implemented a voluntary limit of two per customer with enough batteries to load and refill once. This was to stop SPECULATING and PRICE GOUGING which were later prosecuted successfully against several individuals and companies. Likewise water was trucked in while the main system was damaged or compromised. People in the area were limited to 5 gallons a day. Hoarding is accumulating neccessities during a crisis that exceeds your immediate needs to the detriment of others. By this loose interpretation every LDS family with a mandated food supply could be prosecuted. I believe it's focus would be a person with enough penicillin to treat 1000 people for example. During the german seige at Stalingrad a very well dressed and obviously well fed man invited a starving young couple to his home. They quickly fled when he tried to kill them with a knife. The police entered and shot the man and a few companions on the spot. They had turned to cannibalism <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.

Regarding the not thinking the 10 gallons was hoarding...As I said earlier....it wasn't so much his answer as to how he said it. He seemed very sheepish in why he was doing it..as if he was trying to hide something. If you have a need....then by all means get it. This particular guy just seemed to be hiding something and THAT was what was 'suspicious'. I didn't mean to give the impression that getting that amount was hoarding. It was more of HIS actions rather than the amount he had. I agree that that amount can go quickly and for some of us that IS an appropriate amount. That guy just seem to be up to something and THAT is what I was going for.

In my book, if there is no disaster (and one isn't expected), you can stockpile as much stuff as you can afford and are willing to store, without me calling it hording. (Okay, if you have no intention of ever using those supplies, I might call it hording, but I would still not have a problem with it.)

However, if a disaster has happened or was about to happen, I think that buying any supplies beyond what you (and those who depend on you) can use within the next several days is not "preparing". I would call that panicking or speculating, depending on the reason for the purchase.

Just before Rita veered away from Houston, I was at a local warehouse store and I engaged in a bit of panicking. I bought two boxes of diapers when I had enough diapers at home to last a few more weeks. (I panicked because after Katrina hit, people bought all the cheap diapers to donate them and it was weeks before I could find cheap diapers again.) Sure, I (or rather my daughter) will eventually use all those diapers, but I shouldn't have purchased that many. Another person in line had two carts full of pay-as-you-go phones. My guess is that person was speculating. The management limited her to only 10 phones, and I hope that she had a hard time returning them.

-Kuovonne

Kuovonne,
I wouldn't call that hoarding (buying the 2 boxes of diapers). One case of diarrhea on your little one's part and you'd have gone through those diapers in a heartbeat. 2 boxes.....definetly NOT hoarding in my opinion.

I'm really new to this preparedness stuff and don't buy into it 100% yet, so most people on this forum will probably think that my answer is too optimistic. However, here goes.

I always have at least $20 on me. I keep an emergency $20 bill in my wallet, and I always have my wallet on me whenever I am outside the house. If my husband ever asks if I have any cash, and all I have is that $20, I answer that I have no cash. I *do* spend that emergency bill on occassion, for example when I spot a great deal at an unexpected garage sale. However, I also promptly replenish that $20 as soon as I can.

I have no plans to start carrying more cash on my body on a daily basis. Having walked around with several thousands of dollars of cash on me (once it was a regular part of my job, the other time was for international travel), I feel qualified to say that carrying a lot of cash on a daily basis is not fun. It's bulky and a constant source of worry.

I also carry 2-3 credit cards in my wallet which I think are just as important as the cash. Although cash might be king in most emergency situations, credit cards can also be *really* useful. When people were trying to buy gas here in Houston when evacuating from Rita, people were using credit cards and getting gas from stations that were closed and would not accept cash. Also, in an emergency situation, using a credit card whenever we can will help conserve our cash for other situations when only cash will do.

I always keep a few dollars worth of quarters in my car. Normally I hate dealing with change, as I can pay for almost everything with a credit card. However, most parking meters still take only coins, and the toll booths are much faster with coins since we no longer have an ezpass.

My husband also keeps at least several hundred dollars in cash at home in the safe in a variety of denominations. He doesn't tell me exactly how much is in there, and I don't ask as I trust him to maintain an adequate supply.

-Kuovonne

Depending on what you mean by civilian MRES, yes. See
http://www.cieux.com/bm/quickMeals.html
for links to quickie meals with little or no preparation.

"Real" MREs have pretty much a full day's calories, fat, and sodium in each meal, too much for my needs. I choose HeaterMeals because they have around 700 calories per meal; there might not be enough content in each meal depending on activity, though.

I haven't eaten a real MRE. HeaterMeals are okay. I suggest buying samples of the stuff you're interested in and trying them out before you need them. Find meals that fit your needs (real or projected), then stock up. The list in that page I refer to has kosher, gluten-free, and other specialty meals in addition to meals for more nearly normal diets.

Phil

In my neck of the woods, 10 gas cans (50 gallons) barely fills the average pickup truck gas tank. I don't see that as hording. If it were 500 gallons that might be a different story.

Given my experience with those who are not into "preparedness", my guess is the guy was embarassed to be caught "preparing". I rarely mention my preparedness supplies/stock to anyone NOT because I'm worried about losing it, but only because I'm tired of hearing comments like "that's weird", or "you're nuts", or "When's the comet coming", or "did you join a cult", or "paranoid", etc. etc. etc.
You get enough of that and you just want to avoid it. At least 98% of Americans have no clue where their water really comes from, how food gets into the store, how a gasoline supply chain works, where their poop goes when they flush, how few cops there really are, etc. etc. They are basically clueless, and rather than deal with it on a rationale basis they live in denial and mock those who happen to accidentally pierce their thin shell of ignorance. I really doubt he was hiding anything, just surprised and trying to come up with a plausible "cover story" to avoid telling you the real reason, which was "I'm worried about taking care of my family, and this gasoline could end up saving our lives."
Of course, this is all just speculation on my part - who knows, he might have been accumulating supplies for his local militia - maybe they were running low on Molotov Cocktails?

I'm shocked nobody mentioned a roll of dimes! People are packing felt markers as disquised martial arts weaponry. I've always packed a roll of dimes. Mugger demands my money and I comply. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

There's no one answer for this that'll work for everyone.

But $40 isn't really any bulkier than $20. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> And $20 doesn't go as far as it used to. I remember when I could fill up for $20. Not anymore....

(I'm not saying $40 is enough either. But I think $40 is the new $20, if you know what I mean.)

Randyo,
I should've mentioned that the incident happened here in Southern Florida. Again its not the amount that I make my remarks about.....50 gallons of gas doesn't go that far...... and (almost) everyone here is into Hurricane preparedness. So this guy wouldn't have been 'embarrased' at his preparations...he seemed to be picking up more than he really needed.

"pierce their thin shell of ignorance"

What a gorgeous phrase. Mind if I steal it?

Go ahead. Words are free. I'm too lazy to sell them.

I may be dating myself, but from my perspective a $100 bill today is the equivalent of a $5 bill when I was kid.

Just my opinion, but if you are buying to profit (profiteering), then you are no better than a looter. And I hate looters. So I guess I would say: buy what you need, but you'd better need what you buy. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Regards, Vince

Wow... I would have thought I set off a bug bomb in a house.. everyone came out of the wood work!

I suggest we not use the word HOARD, but instead use the new politically correct term STOCKPILE. If FEMA can have "stockpiles", so can you! Do a Google search of "Florida stockpile".

from www.m-w.com:
stockpile:
: a storage pile: as a : a reserve supply of something essential accumulated within a country for use during a shortage b : a gradually accumulated reserve of something

hoard:
a supply or fund stored up and often hidden away

Just don't look at the thesauraus, they point to each other...

Oh, and at least in Florida, I didn't find any mention of anything relating to hoarding, stockpiling, wasting, etc.

We got fed "Heater Meals" on occasion recently during Katrina. Just about absolute crap. After living on Army rations for twenty years, maybe I'm biased towards MRE's, but I was NOT impressed with the heater meals.

Nickels may purchase less, but weigh more on a mugger's mind...just my $2 worth. I've also used a rolled-up newspaper as cause for indigestion in muggers.

I prefer cash.

I've always thought hoarding was waiting until there was a shortage of something then buying up any you can find usually, but not necessiarially to resell at a later date for profit. Say for example you lived in LA and shortly after the hurricane hit you drove around to every store and bought up all the water you could find.
Preparing or stocking up is done well in advance of any need of whatever you are stocking up on, for example having several gallons of water stored in your home at all times, not just after a disaster.
Though the .gov's definition may not agree with mine.

The big unknown is how long your need will last. So, by your definition, a "profiteer" is anyone who has more than they need when "it" is all over. But the question again is, how long will "it" last?
If you prepare to be self sufficient for 60 days and the calamity lasts 20, and there are those who did not prepare at all, are you still a profiteer? I think not.

Stock up to the point you feel safe and or comfortable, share what you can with those you choose to, and watch your back.

People, people people!!!

There is no such thing as hoarding or stockpiling. There is such a thing as free trade. Do you think big business doesn't keep a surplus of materials on a constant basis speculating the market? What do you think those big tanks are for? or those grain silos, or those huge quansit huts full of spuds and apples? Do you think they are gonna get punished if the market suddenly spikes and they make 2000% profit?

You are entitled to all you can afford. If the sign says limit 10, then I will buy ten if I think I will need that many, or I might be able to sell some for more than I paid for same. This is not a PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. state yet (at least not that bad a PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. state). Does a rancher need 2,000 head of cattle? Heck no, he may butcher one or two, then he will sell his surplus because that's what he does for a living. If I buy at a low price and sell at a higher price, I should be penalized for this? That's just plain hypocritical.

If you say that I can stockpile, but must give it up during emergencies, then why stockpile at all. Do you think the rancher is going to be willing to raise cattle knowing he may have to give up all that he can't personally consume if something bad happens? That's just plain ridiculous.

I grow weary of this mentality that says I have to give up what I work awful damn hard to acquire just because some bozo didn't think ahead a little and is suffering. If I have a surplus, I will be happy to share if I think it will not adversely affect me or mine, but it's gotta be my decision. Otherwise what's the point, we should just let the state take over and they will provide us with everything we need, right comrades?

Comrade Benjammin, of course we should let the state take over and supply us with everything we need. Look how effective it is in North Korea...that happy land of freedom and plenty.

As for reselling supplies in times of emergency, I don't have a problem with that. I might even do it myself, but I would not gouge my neighbours. Nor would I sell at my cost. Somewhere in there is a fair price, higher than market value prior to the event, but not so outrageous as to cause hardship.

> What or when do you consider hording as opposed to prepairing?

"Hoarding" to me implies an element of dog-in-the-manger. Not being able to use it yourself but still depriving others. It doesn't apply when the goods are plentiful because you not depriving others - then it is more like stock-piling. If you have a stock pile, the emergency happens, and you don't use it, I have to wonder what it was for.


> What would one consider minumin abount of cash to keep on person

Probably £50. In an urban setting, that is about enough to pay for a room for the night, and/or some cheap food and/or a taxi home and many other kinds of emergancy. I try to carry more than that.

On the topic of hoarding, I have a couple of parallel definitions:

--The procurement of supplies, usually in limited supply, that you have no-to-little likely need for and/or lack the proper understanding of thier usage to utilize them in a safe and effective method. I apply this to medication and anything with a very short storage life.

--Procuring supplies, in moderately lmiited quantity, in volumes that greatly exceed your resonable needs, and may hamper the abilities of others to be safe, without intention to redistribute without excessive profit. I would apply this to fuel during an evacuation, or to perishable food items in the "day after" phase.

This is different from stockpiling, which I apply to items with relatively great quanties during normal situations that are procureed in said normal situations, for your own purpose, to which I will include trade. That would be the guy who has eightteen jerry cans of gas and an Escort in his garage, and during an evacutaion, might trade some of the gas for, say, coffee or smokes. Or he's diggin in, and has a generator, or will be suppling fuel to his relief organzation. That I can deal with.

But if he leaves it behind in his garage becuase that is more gas than he has car, I'm not going to be terribly offended at a meeting between him and his bad karma. If I know it's in there, and he's bugged out, I'm not ashamed to say that I will return the cans to him, full, at a later date. Maybe by dropping them on his feet.

Profiteering is like hoarding, but you do it to take undue advantage of a crisis. For example, if the person in the above situation was charging 10 bucks a gallon, that would be profeteering.

Now, part of hoarding is the question of if it part of your normal supply. My grandfather carried a four tires, on rims, and something like six jerry cans of fuel in his truck, but he was a forester/naturalist before he retired. He just always had that with him. I can deal with that. But that also is part of what kind of person you are. In something like the Rita exodus, he might not have had much pity for someone out of gas who is driving a two-seat sports car that gets really lousy milage. But a station wagon full of kids... Yeah, he would have passed over at least a partial fuel can, and a couple gallons of water. In that situation, with that rig, I would to.

What really pisses me off, pardong my French, are people who buy pharmesuticals that are in limited supply, and don't need them, or they plan on self-diagnosing whatever illness they might be (semi-)specific for. Or selling for an insane profit. Those people, IMHO, are more likely to waste the drugs by using them inappropriately, frequently after storing them improperly, which frequently puts more load on the medical system. And they are taking a number of doses out of circulation that could have been used to contain an outbreak to the first couple of ttiers (I can't rememeber the proper term) of patients. As a result, I don't think any higher of them than I would someone who accidetnly released that infectious agent outside of a safegaurded area.

I don't know if this is an answer, or a theamatic rant. Probably both.

Mellow guys! This whole subject matter is very much a 'what if?' I tried to explain in my ajoining thread WE DON'T KNOW what society at large will define as hoarding, property rights etc. By their nature large disasters bring a breakdown and suspension in 'the norm' Elmer Fudd is always more appealing than Kim Jon Il on a Sunday morning.

Good point, Chris. We're asking us to think like "normal" people.

I know I can't do that. I have no doubt that most of us can't. That is why we are here- I don't like normal people, they are silly. I like this place, not as many silly people. Goofy, yes, but not silly, normal people.

The difference between hoarding and stockpiling is when you do it. Hoarding is when you buy up stuff that is in short supply, so that when you get yours, someone else gets none. Stockpiling (preparing) is when you buy far enough in advance of the shortage so that when you get yours, there is no shortage and everyone else can get some. Profiteering is when you sell your stockpile at greatly increased prices. Selling neighbor some diesel fuel or water is not profiteering when your price is about what you paid for it or at perhaps five percent markup for handling costs.

Nope. Completely wrong. If I carried ?50 on me and tried to spend it during an emergency, people would wonder what those funny pieces of paper were that I were handing them. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, this is become semantics, but I'll have a go.

If I sell my neighbor some diesel at a greatly inflated price because it has suddenly become hard to acquire, I am participating the the simple laws of economics; supply and demand. Profiteering is a great PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. declaration that limits how much you are entitled to make on the goods/services you provide. It need not be conditional.

Since I am no better at predicting the future than anyone else I know, who's to say that my stockpile might not get used up before I can restock it? Therefore, parting with any of it during a crisis situation might be considered a significant enough loss that I would place much higher value on what I have, even if it seems abundant for the moment. My wife and kids are not going to be too forgiving if I sell diesel at $5.00 a gallon today, and run out in a month with no provision to acquire more, during the middle of winter, and we are freezing to death, in the dark.

I do not believe in penalizing someone who has the foresight to plan ahead, for survival or economic reasons. It just seems too counterproductive. It may sound heartless to others, but we are talking survival here, not charity.

I think the fine line here is, don't be a ass about it. If you are, you might get the moola, but when you need your neighbors' help, they might be a little more reluctant.

That's why IF(!) I've been so sloppy others know about my supplies, I'm not going to make them pay blood. And I'll be more likely to accept barter. And even though I don't advertise, I have stashes of stuff even my friends don't know about. Any trading is done with the flash gear, not the stash gear.

Not really. My definition of a profiteer is the local Stop-n-Rob owner who decides that every item in his store needs a 500% markup just before a hurricane. Or Farmer Bill with the 2000 gallon gas tank who thinks it would be ok to resell it at $10.00 a gallon. I do not consider someone who overprepares to be a profiteer. I may not have been clear on that.

Your last statement is right on the money.

Regards, Vince

"If I sell my neighbor some diesel at a greatly inflated price because it has suddenly become hard to acquire, I am participating the the simple laws of economics; supply and demand."

Actually, if your governor has declared a state of emergency and initiated a price freeze, then you may be breaking the law. What would be perfectly acceptable behavior during normal times (gouging your neighbor) becomes an illegal activity under most emergency decrees.
Maybe the people in Florida can chime in here. Are any of you currently under any restrictions on profiteering due to Wilma?

Please note that I am not arguing against the right to hoard/stockpile as much as you want. And since they are your supplies you can part with as much or as little as you see fit. But I am saying that trading on the misery of ones neighbors to make a buck stinks, it should be illegal during emergencies, and--as far as I know--it is.

Regards, Vince

Yeah, I can live with those qualifiers. I would only be an axx to someone who was an axx in the first place for deciding he could do without because someone will always be there to bail his axx out if things go to sour.

Fortunately, most folks I know don't think that way, so it's likely I will be reasonable with reasonable people. Still you know there's always gotta be some joker out there (the grasshopper). He's the one who will pony up or get sent down the road.

Well, there you have it, socio-economics in action. Now we are back to the original axiom that our good friend Mr. Franklin gave us.

"Those who would trade their freedom for a little security deserve neither"

I'd say we are getting just what we asked for with this kind of "law".

So not only can they force me to sell my supplies, they also get to tell me for how much, or maybe just take it and give it away and forget the compensation altogether.

Yep, sure motivates me to do my part. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

PREPARING is what WE do ahead of time.

HOARDING is what the idiot down the street says we're doing because he didn't prepare.

Sue

I've forgotten whether I got C or K rations when I was in the Air Force, but I didn't mind them. Maybe I just have lower standards than you do. :->

Would the K F C rations be a lower standard again <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

PREPARING is buying well ahead of time, while there is plenty.

HOARDING is buying much more than you need when an emergency is expeced, and there is not sufficient supply for everybody.

If you buy 100 sheets of plywood for hurricane season in December, that is preparing. If you buy the same plywood two days before the storm is expected, that is hoarding.

Of course, buying with the intent to resell could also easily be considered hoarding. Think "ticket scalpers."

Never tried the civy MREs, but in the military we usually referred to the MRE as Meals Refused by Ethiopians. Not all that tasty to most folks! Hard to eat enough of the pack to get sufficient calories also. Most of the GIs prefered the LRP rations to MREs. A LRP is a freeze-dried meal.