Bill,<br><br>Seems to me that my wife got a whole bunch of paint color samples the last she went through the "let's change the house" phase. I seem to remember some that were about the right shades. She got them at Lowes Home Improvement, but any similar store (Home Depot comes to mind), a paint store, a home decorator, or probably even a local Mom and Pop hardware store should have something similar. Heck, if I I haven't thrown them out and I can find them, I'll send you mine if you like.<br><br>Andy

I can create an electronic color tab for the PSK Cheat Sheet or KMO4 vial label, but I personally on't know which shade to reproduce for the colors. Rose, purple and deep purple are all subjective. I haven't found anything on the web that helps, neither a layman's interpretation or a scientific direction (i.e., add 0.1 gram of KMO4 to 1 liter of distilled water).<br><br>Also, I was reviewing the cheat sheet (again) in light of this thread and wonder if I should change the order in which the diferent water treatments appear. The order may suggest an order of preferrence, which was not the intent. But if so, how would you rank the treatments? My order would be:<br><br>1. Boil water<br>2. Purification tablets (Potable Aqua)<br>3. Chlorine<br>4. Iodine<br>5. KMO4<br><br>How does that sound?

Bill,<br>I would rank the water purification options:<br><br>1 Boil<br>2 Potable Aqua<br>3 Iodine, Kahn-Vassher or tincture<br>4 Chlorine tablets<br>5 KMnO4<br><br>I might take some of the Potable Aqua instructions and make these general as I think they apply to all chemical options.<br><br>Strain cloudy water prior to any treatment option.<br>Shake container to disinfect cap threads for the chemical options.<br>Increase (double?) wait time for very cold water.<br><br>Even though I do not carry bleach, or Iodine tincture I like having basic instructions like these available with the PSK. It is likely that I would use these in an local emergency situation. <br><br>I do carry Iodine crystals (Kahn-Vassher method, Polar Pure) in my car kit which has good instructions on the bottle (also excellent shelf stability and will treat may gallons of water). I also carry a mechanical filter system (Katadyne), again with good instructions.<br><br>I would rank the mechanical filter 1st or 2nd in the list of options if we were not considering PSK sized options.<br><br>As for a color chart for KMnO4 dilution, I agree nothing seems to be very helpful. I found reference to a 1mg/L solution for water disinfection, with no supporting efficacy information. I think we all may be left to our own devices as to what is pink, rose, or purple. <br><br>Again, thanks for putting together this Great Cheat Sheet. <br><br>Randy

Bill, <br><br>Personally, I would switch iodine and chlorine. <br><br>I think it might be a good idea to state that it is in the order of preference, and that none are preferable to mechanically filtered water from a quality filter (it's just barely possible that one one of your scouts may have a filter in addition to his PSK in a survival situation). I'm sorry if it seems that I'm assuming your scouts are stupid. I don't think that at all, just trying to cover all the bases. I'm looking at trying get my oldest boy into the scouts now. I don't mind him going into the woods (it's actually my preference), I just want him coming back.<br><br>I'm sorry, I have no idea how to help with the color question, I had never considered that the use of PP should be that specifc...maybe I should. <br><br>In any event, keep up the good work and thanks again,<br><br>Andy

To the best of my knowledge, KMNO4 works directly by oxidization. I think that the "trouble" with trying to find this info is largely due to circumstances: All the mainstream treatses on use of KMNO4 revolve around munincipal use. Rather than get long-winded, there is some very interesting information here that I believe leads to some interesting conclusions for the careful reader. It seems that whacking coliforms is fairly simple; some other tough guys take higher concentrations. Besides the cost, the residual pink color is deemed objectionable in tap water, and the precipitation of manganese dioxide (think carbon-zinc battery black gunk) is quite objectionable if floculation is not used.<br><br>There are some useful inferences to be made from the studies on how much for how long kills what. I don't have any KMNO4 on hand, but someone who does could make up those "noteworthy" concentrations and obseve/record the colors... another approach would be to pre-measure smaller amounts for use in stipulated amounts of water - I have to give some thought to packaging, but it's feasible. Something like "use 1 for drinking water, 4 for antiseptic wash, and 8 for anti-fungal" (hope you like purple toes LOL) - these dimensionless numbers for illustration only.<br><br>Has anyone used the Chlor-Floc stuff yet? I see it's available and apparently (this snuck up on me) is the current issue water disinfectant. I think I see a potential drawback to it - does anyone else?<br><br>If I recall correctly, iodine-based disinfection is most likely to whack the nasties. Use enough and drink the result. One gets used to it - and I think iodine-stained instant mashed potatoes are kinda interesting anyway <grin>. Chlorine-based will not effectively take out some of the tough bugs at advisable dosages unless one is equiped to test for residual chlorine (Field Sanitation, Lister bags, test kits - arrrgh! it's coming back to me...) Am I remembering this correctly? Filters are filters - caveat emptor; read Doug's reviews, read other 3rd party reviews, etc.<br><br>In a "drink-or-die" situation, let's not forget that we can strain the big stuff out and simply drink the water if it's not loaded with mineral poisons (I try to not drink effluent from old mines no matter how nice it looks - got enuff heavy metal in me already - some areas it's not safe to assume that the stream you see isn't loaded up from old mines... I don't worry too much about the bugs as long as I'm upstream of the cow when it does its thing...)<br><br>I think that KMNO4 is really cool stuff, I've used it for algecide/non-toxic herbicide in various situations but I'm not sure I'll carry it in my PSK - it's in the category of "useful to know" info that clutters up my poor feeble mind, I guess.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom<br><br>

Hi Bill<br> By any chance do you still have a copy of the old format with the snares and traps? If you do I would love a copy.<br>Akraven asst scoutmaster

send me a private email at william_vannerson@ama-assn.org and I'll send it to you.

Interesting link.<br><br>>>> Under acidic conditions the oxidation half-reactions are … Under alkaline conditions, the half-reaction is … Reaction rates for the oxidation of constituents found in natural waters are relatively fast and depend on temperature, pH, and dosage. <<<<br><br>Basically, asking if there's a color chart for determining concentrations is a moot point as a concentration of "pink" will have different oxidation effectiveness under different water conditions. If I read the equations correctly, and it's been many years since I took chemistry, KMnO4 is more reactive in acidic water than it is in alkaline water. <br><br>>>> Potassium permanganate is a strong oxidizer and should be carefully handled when preparing the feed solution. … However, this dark purple/black crystalline solid can cause serious eye injury, is a skin and inhalation irritant, and can be fatal if swallowed.<br><br>I wonder if this alone would be a good reason not to include it in the kit, especially for Scouts.<br><br>>>> High dosage rates were required to accomplish complete inactivation of bacteria in three studies.<<<<br><br>This and other statements in the paper indicate that KMnO4 is not a cost-effective disinfectant for municipal water treatment. But I'm not sure that can be used to assume the same for a PSK. A high concentration in solution (pink to purple?) in the field may be effective treatment. However, the report states that long contact times may be needed for certain bacteria and viruses, up to two hours. Is that practical in the field for treating wounds?<br><br>I printed off the page to reread more carefully on the train tonight. But my initial thoughts are that maybe KMnO4 should not be included in my kit and that perhaps iodine may be a better antiseptic. Although I recall that it's more volatile and is caustic as well. I'll have to do some more reading and thinking.<br><br>Thanks, Tom<br>

Randy & Ade<br><br>Do you carry KMnO4 in your PSK? See my reply to Tom as I am rethinking my position on its inclusion.<br><br>The comments on referencing mechanical filtration are valid, but I'm running out of space, it's a cheat sheet mot a manual. But then, if I am to remain true to that thought, why include references to chlorine and iodine, neither of which is in the kit. Perhaps I should limit it only to PSK items.<br><br>Thanks for the order suggestion. It makes sense.<br>

See my replies to other posts on this subject.<br><br>>>>I'm sorry if it seems that I'm assuming your scouts are stupid. <<<<br><br>I never confuse ignorance with studipity. :-)<br><br>>>>I'm looking at trying get my oldest boy into the scouts now.<<<<br><br>Feel free to contact me off list if you have any questions on Scouting.