I suppose a lot of people keep accessible a gun with a loaded magazine. This probably fits into the category of urban survival.<br><br>What should be done to avoid the magazine spring taking a set (and thereby becoming an unreliable feeder) as a result of prolonged compression when the magazine is left loaded for long periods? The issue probably needs to be addressed differently as between tubular magazines and box magazines; with the category of box magazines possibly being further divided into detachable and integral magazines.<br><br>I have never seen this question answered authoritatively. The conventional wisdom seems to be that one should rotate the loaded condition among different detachable magazines. The length of time a magazine should be left loaded appears to vary enormously from user to user. I personally get tired of rotating magazines. And shooting up magazines loaded with expensive defense ammunition during regular practice as method of rotating magazines is more extravagant than this non-governmentally-funded shooter can tolerate. <br><br>In view of the wonderful variety of experience and expertise in this forum, I'm hoping for a solution.<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>John

I am probably the only person with a former spring maker as a co worker! All springs are not created equal. Some will take a set and others won't. The quality of the spring and weight of the cartridges make to many variables for a set answer. There are spring actuated landmines from Vietnam and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan still killing people. Some people recommend only half loading a magazine, and some high capacity mags won't function new fully charged. I had a service 1911 magazine loaded and forgotten in a seabag. It functioned perfectly 20 years later. The massive leaf springs in my Mauser 98s have never failed, while a Colt SAA broke them with regularity. Your best bet? Buy the very best and keep one charged and test periodically. That, or get a good wheel gun ;^)

I couldn't agree more. I also once found a 1911 mag that had been loaded forever, fired all seven without a hitch. I have several S&W 4006 mags that have been loaded for approximately 10 years, fired one the other day, again with no problem. Saw plenty of brand new GI M-16 20 round mags that would not work with over 18 rounds in them. It all depends on the mag...

>>I personally get tired of rotating magazines. And shooting up magazines loaded with expensive defense ammunition during regular practice as method of rotating magazines is more extravagant than this non-governmentally-funded shooter can tolerate. <<<br><br>You're allowed to unload the magazine by hand (or more accurately, by thumb) rather than shooting it dry. It's less work than loading one, which you're going to have to do anyway...<br><br>For the relatively brief period that I kept a 1911 loaded, I used a top-brand 8 round competition magazine loaded with 7. Also, when it wasn't carried, to help unload the spring a bit and add a bit more safety, I didn't seat the mag- I had to "bump the butt" to seat the mag (the extra length of the 8 round mag made this easy) before jacking the slide to put one in the chamber. As far as the spring was concerened, this was all probably unnecessary, but I slept better.<br><br>I did the same thing with the tube magazine on a Remington 870 for awhile.. just kept it loaded one less than capacity. For a staggered mag I'd probably go two less- I've had Vietnam vets tell me they never loaded their M16 20-round mags with more than 18.<br><br>The strain on normal coil springs is not linear with compression, they're typically under MUCH more strain at full design compression than they are when just a little relaxed.<br>

As pointed out already all springs are not created equal. If you want to test your springs take the spring out of a functional magazine and measure the length, write it down where you can find it again. And then after the mag. has been loaded for an extended period of time pull out the spring and measure it again. A slight change is usually not a problem but if it changes very much replace the spring. Not all magazines come apart but most do for cleaning. <br><br>

Chris, your background is amazing! What percentage of the population works with spring makers?<br><br>You guys seem to have the same kind of experience I am having. I have a Daisy model 25 on which the spring-powered tubular magazine was left 2/3 loaded for perhaps 15 years. It works normally. OTH after a detachable 4 round magazine for a Rem 788 was left loaded 1 year, it's spring took a set & would not work properly. I guess each spring is a law unto itself.<br><br>It looks like the most reliable solution is to go back to revolvers as Chris suggested. That in turn takes us to the fact that revolvers have some springs that are under continuous tension, but they continue to work reliably for decades. Maybe the key is that they are not under full tension until the revolver is being operated. That is consistent with some of your experiences. Oh well, at least they always work. <br><br>Thanks for all the info guys.<br><br>John<br>

Liek other have said, buy quality, clean them, and rotate them every so often. I do it quarterly, when I replace the batteries in my kits, refresh the water, that kind of thing. (Yes, it does make me a busy beaver the first Saturday of every quarter. )<br><br>With tubular magazines, most of them can be opened. On most shotguns, it's just a nut. With lever actions and most .22s, it's a pain, but it can be done- get the full manual, and it should talk about it. Get a spare magazine spring from the manufactuer, and rotate those every few months.<br><br>Most of the shotguns around Casa de Raven are Remington 12 gauges, 1100s, 11-87s and 870s. In the two that are stored loaded, I have 20" and 21" barrels on them, with 7 shot tube extensions. For those, I scrounged the springs for some 8-shot extensions. It drops the capacity by one round, but I can't imagine those will fail. <br><br>If you can avoid it, don't store mags loaded in the first place. Use speedloaders, stripper clips, whatever works. It's not just a safety issue but a mechanical issue. <br><br>One last bit- shoot some of that premium defensive ammo. In fact, I recommend shooting 100 rounds of it WITHOUT cleaning the gun, to make sure that it will work. If I get one failure, then that ammo/gun combo isn't ready for primetime. That is done after at the start, and after any major mechanical modification (new barrel, new slide, new recoil spring, etc) to be sure. Then I run a magazine of it once a quarter or so. With a revolver, it isn't such a big deal, but with autoloaders, there are too many things that need to work right to not be sure.<br><br>While that eliminates exotics like Glasers and Magsafes, the exotic rounds don't have the greatest rep for feeding. And they look bad if you have to go to court, and odds are, you will if you have to shoot someone. Stick to 2nd and 3rd generation hollowpoints, that's my adivice. The reason for running the "real" load through every so often is so that you know if and how your point of impact changes from your practice round, and how recoil changes. <br><br>By the same token, I can't stress enough that if you are talking a defensive firearm, find someplace where you can do some night shooting. Sights that are great in the day frequently suck at night. You also want to find out how blinded you'll be by your own muzzle flash. Becuase if the stuff hits the fan, it's a fairly safe bet that the sun won't be up.<br><br>

Cybe,<br><br>Your quarterly rotation is attractive. I have been rotating monthly. Have you experienced any loss of power or performance in your springs that you attribute to quarterly rotations?<br><br>Have you tried loading to less than full capacity of the magazine? If so, what results have you gotten?<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>John

Before I retired I was the weapons officer in our area. The CHP has Rem 870's in all patrol vehicles, they are ALWAYS loaded with four rounds (no mag extensions for us...). Quarterly I would clean the weapons and change the ammo for new. I have NEVER heard of a 870 failing to feed due to a mag spring. One problem we did discover is that in the summer, with the temp soaring inside of the locked vehicle (assuming that it wasn't used the entire day), the bottom round in the mag (first to feed) would get "soft" from the heat, and the spring tension, would cause the round to bend a little, right at the top fo the brass. I never found one that would not feed, but started changing the ammo monthly in the summer months. Something for those of you keeping a shotgun in the trunk to think about...<br><br>The CHP issued S&W 4006's about 12-13 years ago. Each officer was issued three standard "duty" mags, and each weapon also came with three red based mags for training use. During the initial training with the weapon each officer was allowed to load and shoot dry the three duty mags one time. After that the idea is that those mags will never be used again, unless in a combat shooting. Officers are supposed to empty and clean the mags at least weekly, and at the monthly shoots the ammo will be stripped out of the duty mags and fired. Fresh ammo will then be loaded into the duty mags. I don't necessarily agree with this idea, but for some reason they didin't ask me... Again, I have never heard of a failure to feed caused by the mag spring.

The only magazine springs I've actually seen set was a batch of early Korean War manufactuer M1 Carbine 30 rounders, a post Korean War M1 Garand that had been stored loaded for 45 year (!!!!!!), and a couple of pocket pistols (.25 caliber Euro-trash of questionable pedigree, either Spanish or Portugese) from the 20s or 30s. But I rotate just to be sure. Finding out the hard way doesn't happen on the range. <br><br>Full capacity is another issue, mostly having to do with magazine design. I don't think anyone knows for sure what cuases it, other than crud in your mags. The early 20 rounds for the M-16 and 30-32 round mags for a lot of SMGs are notorous for this, but I've also seen it several times in Beretta magazines. In fact, I know of one M92 mag so gummed up by lint and dust (carried in the Bianchi mag pouch, in the Kuwait area, during a dust storm) that it had to have the baseplate pulled off just to get the rounds out! That is the worst M9 story I've heard, but I've heard a lot of them. The Sig, S&W double stacks, Glock and Browning all have similiar reports, but nowhere as bad as that one with the M9. Actually, about the only double stack mags that I've never heard of having this problem are H&K, the AK and the WWII Russian SMGs, but that doesn't suprise me. <br><br>The Brits load thier 13 round Browning mags with 10 rounds, and they find that there is no problem no matter how bad the dust is. My Bowning has gotten submerged in a few swamps and marshes, and I've had a couple of mags that needed to be cleaned before they fed right. But if I was carrying 12 rounds, they later ejected thier rounds just fine when I thumbed them out. <br><br>The same kind of shorting solved the problems with 20 and 30 round M-16 magazines, the FAL mags, and the various SMGs. It's probably bad engineering with those, becuase I heard some tales about them being screwed up on the range using fresh from the manufacturer magazines when they were full loaded. <br><br>My rule of thumb has become to load double stacks short by this formula:<br> (capacity - 10)/10<br><br>It means that 12-20 round mags get loaded with one less, 30 rounds two less, et al. Less ammo, yes, but if it can't be solved with 10 rounds or less, and you are civilian, you probably made a bad call someplace. 99% of the time, with a pistol, you won't see it. It's that 1% that reminds you that Murphy has a sense of humor, and it is your turn to the be the butt of the joke.<br><br>Single stacks don't have the problem with crud, becuase the rounds don't roll against eachother as much.<br><br>A bigger problem is bad ammo profiles that your feed ramp doesn't like. That's why I recommend shooting a couple boxes straight of any new ammo before you trust it totally.<br>