I, too, believe that these threads that will not die may need a rest. I want to move on with other matters.<br><br>As a hopefully final note on this subject, I would like to make one concluding observation:<br><br>All of the participants in this thread have shown a great deal of passion in their various arguments as to how our children should be raised, trained, & developed. I think we need to appreciate that the high level of passion is appropriate to such an important subject, notwithstanding the divergent approaches (with which we may disagree). But I'm still not gonna let the 9-year get his own chainsaw. :-))<br><br>I would urge that all of us direct our passions on this matter to actually helping boys learn outdoor & related skills. If you're not presently rearing children, leading scouts, or engaging in similar endeavors, think about actually doing it. We have learned a lot of very useful knowledge & skills. Let's make sure that we are genuinely helping to transmit it to future generations. In the process, we can help boys learn the many lessons involved in growing up. If available organizations seem dysfunctional, work to improve them. If that is not possible, find other & productive groups. If they are not available, start some.<br><br>Anyway, just a thought from this frazzled brain.<br><br>John<br><br>P.S. Tom, I hope you have a great trip.