There has been concern that this wonderful forum could deterioriate if we started discussing LST. I think that is a foregone conclusion in light of recent events, but what is not a given is the content of this forum.

I respectfully submit that if you want to talk about guns, knives or other tools for kiling people, we all hold it back from here on.

Not my place, just my opinion.

Dunno. I definitely see your point, but I don't think it's all or nothing. Guns have (relatively) non controversial survival uses as well (hunting), so discussion about that, for example, should be ok. But I agree that their use for defense pushes a lot of the wrong buttons, and maybe that's what should be avoided.

Maybe we should have a gentlemens' agreement to not discuss openly the use of firearms for self defense. We all know it's possible, we all know it happens, we all know where else to turn for more information. And it probably shouldn't be here. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We are on the same page.

I absolutely agree. I'm not a bit ignorant or timid about firearms for self defense, but I enjoy this site as a place to learn/share about "survival equipment and techniques" that don't involve defending from or killing other humans. Not that I'm unwilling, unsupplied, or incapable of doing so.. but I go elsewhere to chat about looters, marauders, thugs in the woods or streets, etc.

Discussions about guns and knives have been going on here since before I started hanging out, including generic "self defense" threads, and it's never been a problem before. If it gets out of hand Chris takes care of it. Guns and knives are no different than any other gear, and should be legitimate topics for survival. Just my .02.

Regards, Vince

Edit: I just saw your post under "A big rethink" and I must say I agree with that 100%.

"guns, knives or other tools for kiling people"

Tools such as guns and knives, while they can kill people, many other things can kill people, be very careful how you lable, I for one don't appreciate being called a people killer simply because I cally a tool with me. I think you should do some research and find out the true uses for tools such as guns and knives before you assume that they are only inteneded to kill people.

Not talk about knives? The knife is the number one survival tool, hands-down, without a doubt? Surely this is a joke <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> and you really don't want to stop discussing knives. Wouldn't we just be perpetuating the misconception about a knife being a "weapon" rather than a "tool" since that is exactly how we would be labelling it?

I wonder how many people here have read Doug's Urban Survival Primer . IIRC he talks about guns and knives for self-defense as well as other items such as pepper spray and tasers. I would think that if this information was not relevant for responsible discussion then it would not be in a primer linked right off of the main page of this website and written by Doug himself.

Can I mention tweezers, or would I be guilty of making someone feel uncomfortable?

What is LST?

I think he means LTS- Long Term Survival, not LST- Landing Ship Tank

Oh, that's funny!!! <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I am for talking about guns and knives as two of the most important tools man has--which includes defense of myself and my family. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

No one's suggesting we can't talk about guns and knives. But it may be wise to avoid discussing certain uses of those tools here, especially since those type of discussions can become very emotional. And I have yet to see any such discussion change even one person's mind... for or against. So what's the point?

I first took this as tongue in cheek <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Groo,

I Completely, totally and absolutely disagree. I know your stand on guns, and I can tell you without question, that people I have known for YEARS with your same stance have come to me in the last week asking for the best shotgun to buy and the training to use them for a defensive position. So don't say opinions can't change. I have empirical evidence they DO. Including this one former member of Handgun Control Inc. who now owns a very nice collection of firearms, a concealed carry permit and is known as a "go-to" guy for all things firearms related. And that person was me.

You know my stance on guns?

I have a Florida CCW. I reload and shoot .45. I have a couple of shotguns for home defense. I enjoy shooting as a hobby. I believe strongly in the individual's right to own and use firearms. I'm a member of the NRA (had to, the shooting range required it for membership). An armed society is a polite society, etc.

And I still think it's a bad idea to talk about it here. But even this meta discussion is starting to go off the rails, so I'm dropping out...

If you mean you are opposed to the type of threads that discuss how best to disembowel/shoot your foe, then I think you are absolutely right. Those types of discussions are tedious at best and juvenile at worst.

IMO discussions about which caliber/action/manufacturer is best in a defense/hunting/survival scenario are a legitimate topic.

I think we can rely on our moderator to keep things in hand. If you think a thread is going in an improper direction, shoot him a PM. I'll bet it's taken care of expeditiously.

I am an NRA member and supporter. I think it stinks that you had to become a member to shoot at your range, especially if you are opposed to the NRA's politics/ideals. I sometimes take for granted that I have thousands of square miles to go out and shoot from a scant 20 minutes west of where I live.

Regards, Vince

When I started this thread, my only intent was to forestall a denegration of the forum into a discussion of firearms and agressive weapons minutia.

I was once one of two persons in Callahan County Texas to be simultatneously a member of the American Civil Liberties Union and the NRA. The other was my mother. We humans are nothing without our contradictions.

I seem to have stirred something up by my original post. My persnal position:
Guns and knives are tools, no more no less so than a hammer or a screwdriver. But they are tools to which many in our society attach signifigance beyond their utility. The testosterone factor, in shorthand for aggression, paranoia, and hostility.

I love knives, I love guns. I love the touch, feel, smell of them. I grew up with them. But, this place was originally about survival primarily in the wilderness, secondarily in urban environments, and lately post Katrina. This, IMHO, is as it should be. I belong to other forums where we talk ad nauseum about muzzle velocity and bullett expansion factors. Let it be so.

Sure, let's talk here about a pump 12 versus a 357 mag as a defense gun as part of a kit, or 22/410 survival guns as worth their weight to carry. But I'm not going to clog up the forum with weapons minutia, henceforth. That is my only point.

Why not set up a specail section, where those that want to discuss survival issues WITH guns have a place to go. Those of you that don't agree don't have to see/post there. That way, people like me (I'm always after knowledge) can find out about making ammo, what type of gun would be most useful in which situation and so forth. I myself would love to find out more about gunsmithing (in a LTS situation) and the ammo as well. It beats the topic being degraded into a chest-thumping contest with feelings being hurt.

Just another humble opinion,
Wyn