Katrina Lessons:

Or situation : 60 miles NNW of New Orleans, on a slight hill 40 ft ASL, so storm surge wouldn't bother us. All tall trees on the property were far enough away that they couldn't fall on the house. We decided to stay, but were concerned about wind. We had one or two micro tornados within 1/4 mile of the house, and a wind gust of 155mph was recorded 15 miles south. Lots of tree damage, and I now have a spare barn roof in my yard from my neighbor's.

Now that phones are working somewhat reliably, and the generator is going, I have a few new insights into emergency preparedness.

1) PSK's are nice to debate, and we've done a lot of that here. But they are only for last resort. If you know, or suspect something is coming, prepare for the macro situation, not the micro. I have not opened my PSK once. Nice to know it's there, but it has been useless otherwise.

2) EDC rules. I carry, and have repeatedly used the following:
A.G. Russell Featherlite knife. ATS 34 blade, locking,
superlight, and very handy. You always are using a knife.
Victorinox SAK. not made anymore, but it's a between a Ranger and a Champ. the pocket toolkit. don't care for the knife blades, that's why the Russell is carried.
Photon II. No Power, gets dark at night, and dark in some spots in the house even in daytime. Need I say more?
Superior Sharpener on keyring. Very useful to keep the blades in decent shape.
Bic lighter. Hey, you gotta cook sometime.
I also carry a flint and steel, whistle and P-38 can opener, but they haven't come into play.

3) gas cans. Gasoline is liquid civilization. Once I got the
generator, the living standard here at the house went up 100 years. But you need to have fuel to maintain that standard. I currently have 3 5gal cans plus one borrowed (thanks Cliff!). As soon a supply improves, I'm buying another nine. 60 gal. should be enough for 10-14 days without resupply.

4) Ice chests - the swing top "playmate" variety are OK for picnics, but not for this. The gap that lets the top pivot also lets your ice melt way too fast. I was tempted to get one or two big Igloo type, but thought better. If you're constantly opening a big chest, you're decreasing your storage time. Now I'm going to buy 4 smaller Igloo type, preserving 3/4 of my ice supply.

5) Generator - with a generator, I can power my well (running water), a window AC in the Louisiana heat, Satellite TV and laptop (news and communications), and one other major appliance. Normally that's the fridge, but we occasionally unplug that to run either the washing machine or microwave. Dryers are outdated. This setup gets us from the 1800's into the late 20th century.

6) if you're counting on your cell phone for help, DON'T. The land lines are working better now, but most cells are iffy at best. So far Verizon seems to be the clear winner. I am firing Cingular at the earliest opportunity. If they want to sue me for breaking a contract, they have to do it here in Louisiana, where cell service failed massively, especially for emergency services and government. Ain't a judge who's gonna let that fly. Sue away Cingular.

7) How ever many people you're planning on, double it or more. When they evacuate major metropolitan areas there just aren't enough places to go, particularly if time is short. A friend or family member will invite someone else, trust me.

8) Time is your enemy. We were OK on everything but power, and thus gas, and cooling. We had to search and scrounge for the generator, window AC and gas cans. And we had to take what was available. Fortunately, we got good brands, but don't count on luck.

9) PRACTICE!! Last September, hurricane Ivan was supposed to come here. Before we finished the prep work, it turned away. But we finished anyway, as a dry (literally) run. Having most of our supplies already here, a wife who knew our situation and plans, and having plywood pre cut to fit the windows were critical. Our preps revealed many flaws we corrected, just like this time revealed flaws. And we
are and will correct them.

10) Cooking. we've been using a charcoal grill, but that's a pain. As soon as the mail resumes, we are expecting a Coleman dual fuel stove. Why dual fuel? So we don't need to get charcoal, propane or coleman fuel, it just uses the same unleaded regular the generator and vehicles use. Commonality of supply and easier logistics.

11) Logging gear. A chainsaw, 40 ft heavy chain, and pickup are vital in areas with heavy timber. We were able, with the help of the neighbors, to clear our road by nightfall. If anyone had been injured and needed a hospital, we could get them there before helos could fly.

12) stoppers to hold water in a tub don't always work. We had a 50% failure rate.

13) before we got the well hooked up we were worried about sanitation. Buckets of water from a neighbor's pond are a good field expedient to flush toilets.

14) good neighbors are very very important. you can't do it all yourself. Survival is a team sport.

Now that things are improving, we are doing after action reviews here.
the things on our list:

More Gas cans. Reason already noted. I'm not worried about stability, I use unleaded in the tractor and will rotate my supply.
I'm going to insert a plug in the 220 line at the well. Next time, all I'll have to do is unplug from the house supply and plug in the 220 cord into the generator. I'll rig a short extension between the fridge and the wall, and hang the plug, concealed alongside the counter. It's not fun to have to move a fridge out form the wall in a crisis. Then
all I need do is reach the connection along the counter, unplug and replug into the generator line. We should then be able to have auxillary power in 30 minutes, not a few days.
We'll be keeping several cases of MRE's, in addition to our regular hurricane rations.
Hire Verizon.
New Ice chests.

Just remember, we down here are not victims, we are survivors.

Peanut

Thanks for the review. Very interesting. Everytime I read one of these, I learn something from someone else instead of having to learn it the hard way.


<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wonderful post.

My EDC just gets smaller to insure I always have it; my PSK just gets bigger because the tactical situation gets more complicated and variable all the time. My resonse to that is to increase flexiibiity: set up a receptacle with a lot of competent gear, and pull what you need when the need arises.

The prior focus of the forum has been upon wilderness survival, and this is the best best spoto n the web for that, hands down. But Doug has a lot to offer on water survial whainch translates to the NO situation.

Did you use a radio (AM/FM), or mainly use the TV for news?

I thought about storing more gas for emergency situation to run generator etc., but what's a safe way to store in a suburban environment?

Radio initially, then tv was added to the mix once the generator was going. Thank God for satellite TV. The cable is still out and may be for some time. regular tv is difficult to get up here. I still have an antenna, but it was damaged in the storm. The dish wasn't, and I have a spare is it was.

Peanut

Alawys wondered about the pre-cut plywood and marking them so you knew where they went. Thanks for the update.

Dave

>>Commonality of supply and easier logistics.

Perhaps having charcoal around in case is still a good idea. You can always cook in a fire pit.

>> Logging gear
After seeing the devastation, it might be wise for small neighborhoods, if possible, to create helicopter landing zones (LZ's). These are best if ithey are 100 feet by 100 feet wide. If you happen to have spraypaint (which after Hurricane Andrew seemed to become a staple to mark house addresses and insurance policy numbers...) you can paint a big LZ on it.

Helicopter LZ operations are dangerous and are usually performed by those with alot of training and know how. Perhaps you can get some guidance and training from a local Fire Department. At the very least you have a place supplies can be dropped, and a reference point for aerial operations

Medevac LZ's

Excellent post. Thanks.

Having never been through a disaster, it's still hard for me to comprehend. I have supplies, but they are mostly geared for surviving very primitively. And most of my most prized preparations have been related to saving myself while lost on some wilderness hike. Getting your whole life ripped out from under you is unfathomable.

e.g., I don't have a generator. I never really saw a use for one. But hearing you talk of moving from the 1800's to the 20th century got me thinking. Maybe not such a bad idea, if only to raise spirits and restore a bit of normalcy. A hot microwaved bowl of chili probably makes for a gourmet meal compared to surviving on cold cans of green beans and corn.

Thanks for sharing during what must be a horrendous time for you. My prayers are with you.

As always, little brother, a superb post.

But this was simply genius: "Survival is a team sport." Oh, so true. Doug, I smell a killer T-shirt in this somewhere.

I am sorry I have not posted in a few days, but there is too much going on and I am, to be honest, drained. But Baton Rouge is fine, we are fine, and..... we will survive. Many thanks to all who have contributed!! Your efforts and prayers have not gone unnoticed.

.....CLIFF

Thanks for the post, invaluable info. I have copied the entire thread into my "Level 5 House/Notes" bookmark. I am glad to hear not only did you survive but you persevered. It sounds like a little forethought and expense made the difference between you and your family/friends getting into a desperate situation vs. being generally inconvenienced. I would like to ask a couple of questions...what make/model of generator do you own; and how much money do you think you have invested in the equipment you used during/after the storm to facilitate that standard of living? (Obviously minus the cost of the house and the standard "Joe six-pack" type of things) Thanks and I am very happy to hear you made out as well as can be expected. God bless.

Marc


"Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will have to ram it down their throats."
-Howard Aiken

I find the military surplus cans from someone like Cheaper Than Dirt work well for fuel storage. I use to use the old style Rubbermaid cans that I really liked a lot but thanks to the California Environmentalist Mafia they are no longer available.
Use the German style cans they are the best I have found. CTD is out of the German made Swiss ones right now (marked Euro Surplus) but they have some new or almost new ones that are almost as good made in Europe for the Israeli army. They are very robust cans that are designed to float even when full and not to gurgle and splash fuel when fuel is poured from them. The pour spout they sell is made in China and is not the same quality as the surplus cans. I just use a funnel which works well with a little practice.
I also have stored fuel in drums but it is more difficult to handle than a 20 liter (5 gallon) can.

The demise of Rubbermaid had nothing to do with California legislation. There is a mixed bag of California laws ; classic steel jerrycans cannot be sold but the stores have a plethora of your lamented plastic ones. Gasoline for long term storage can be treated with stabilisers to prevent degradation. www.majorsurplusnsurvival.com sells it. Gasoline is best stored AWAY from the main domicile in a vented storage room with a clean,dry floor, preferably not of cement which can spark a dragged can with results garanteed to warm the souls of people concerned about Sparklites, Bics, metal matches etc. A NO SMOKING sign and a lock and chain to secure from theft are usefull.

My house is next to the life flight LZ for the hospital. I love hearing the chopper in the middle of the night.

Yes I have several of the new and improved "SAFE" plastic jugs with the California approved nozzles and I am not impressed. In the very narrow spectrum of what they tested these cans to do they must work some what but for the everyday use around a farm or refueling equipment they are less than desirable.
The California Air Resources Board at its September 23, 1999 adopted new emission and spill –control regulations for portable containers, commonly known as "gas cans," and gas can spouts. The regulations apply to new gas cans and spouts sold in California after January 1, 2001. This insanity or at least the poorly engineered results of this ruling has spread to much of the rest of the country. This is because of the size of the California market has induced the manufacturers to tool up their products to pass the new California laws.
I know they did this to keep people from spilling fuel while using the cans but I wonder how well it is working?? I know for me I went from hardly ever spilling or splashing fuel and keeping a very clean operation too just being happy if it only gurgles and splashes a little bit. Now I will readily admit that I have not tried all the cans available on the market but the 4-5 different manufactures cans I have tried are each as useless as the other. You can not legislate away stupidity or carelessness you can only make things more difficult for everyone else. Those who actually used their cans more than once or twice a year could probably with a little thought not spill much fuel to start with and everyone else is going to make a pigs ear of it anyway so why inconvenience the rest of us?

For a long term backup I'd consider a propane conversion kit. Propane stores better, burns cleaner, and you can get it in 420 pound cylinders which are nearly impossible to steal even if someone would want one and which will run your generator for a very long time without dealing with juggling 5 gallon jerry cans. Plus you can run a normal gas stove from one, plus you can easily buy the fuel without paying vehicle tax.

You will most likely have to wire that yourself as the electricians are all being educated to not do those anymore since it would be too easy for people to forget and leave the main breaker on so you end up back feeding to the line.

I had been wondering why the spout on my new 5 gallon gas can is so crappy. Now I know. I took one of the spouts off of an older 2 gallon can I had and it screwed on perfectly. No spills.

Regards, Vince

Same here. I always end up washing the lawn mower when I fill it up.
I also tried to empty my 5 gallon can into the truck last week so as to get some fresh in it and I noticed it runs very slow though the fill tube because the nozzel on the gas can isn't long enough to poke the little flap open in the filler on the truck.

Eugene, invest in a cheap plastic transmission filling funnel and it will go in past the "trap door" you speak of. It is almost two feet long and is shaped sorta half moon. It tapers from a big hole at the top to a little hole at the end. Saw the small end off just below where it goes thru the door. The half moon shape allows the funnel top to end up in the "up" position. Shove it in the hole with a little pressure and the funnel will end up free standing and you won't have to hold it while you pour. I hope this makes sense. I never could say anything in a few words. I envy people that can. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you are going to use a portable generator to power part of your house, the recommended and safest method is to install a "Transfer Switch". With it, there is no danger of feeding back into the power system. As I recall, they sell for about $100. I see them for sale frequently on eBay. Do a search on eBay for "GENERATORS". The transfer switches are usually mixed among the listed generators.

I can't stress enough how important it is to OPEN THE MAIN BREAKER before you connect ANYTHING to your home wiring. You can energize lines outside your home and KILL SOMEONE.
While the pigtail method works, a dedicated transfer switch for specific loads is a safer method.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000CCXUF/102-1523412-2314534?v=glance
In addition, many portable generators have GFCI's that get confused when connected to home wiring, leaving you with the requirement to run UNGROUNDED from your generator to the home panel.
Extension cords may be a pain in the butt, but at least they maintain the integrity of your home wiring's safety features.

I'll have to look for those. I have a couple funnels stored under the hood which fit the oil and transmission fillers a anyway but nothing that long.

How long does it take to pump 5 gallons? I'm looking at speed of refill in an evac situation, I don't want to be stopped by the side of the road emptying 5 gallon cans for longer than necessary.

Aren't you having to pay out the waz for the sat net?

Just curious, Peanut. What did you have stockpiled in the way of folding money, and how much have you burned through?

I got the impression Izzy already had satellite service. If that's the case, all you need is an extra dish (dirt cheap to free). Remove the satellite receiver from your house and take it wherever. Make some kind of base or mount for your spare dish, learn to aim it, (easy) and you have satellite service anywhere. An exception to this is if you have a TiVo receiver. They have to be connected to the phone line full time plus they have two lines in from the dish and the dish will probably be a triple LNB type dish. (The oval ones that look "cocked" at an angle when you see them). For a complete satellite system without a generator, consider using a DC to AC inverter for your vehicle. They come in various sizes. Get one with enough capacity to handle both the TV and the satellite receiver. Then you can run off your vehicle. Problem with these inverters is they have a low voltage cutoff and when the vehicle voltage drops to about ten volts, they shut down. Of course if you have a generator, you can watch TV till you run out of gas. The smallest of generators
(1000 watts) will handle the load and will run for 10-12 hours on less than a gallon of gas. I have used my satellite receiver in my travel trailer and traveled over 100 miles from home and it works. The receiver does not know where it is so this is not a problem. If you have a TiVo or otherwise don't want to unhook the receiver in the house, used receivers are a dime a dozen. DirecTv will activate it and send you another card for it and charge you $5.95 a month for an extra receiver, the same as if you had an extra set in the house. The folks at DirecTv can be pretty testy sometimes. They may tell you that they don't activate used receivers. Not to worry. They do. Just ask for technical support. If the used set came with a card, they will activate it over the phone. Otherwise, they will want the model and serial of the receiver and they will mail you a card, usually FedEx overnite. If you are a Dish Network subscriber, I can't help you there but I would suspect that the procedure would be similar. Personally, I am no fan of DirecTv. If I had it to do over, I would be a Dish subscriber. Sorry, I just CAN'T be brief. It's a curse I have to live with. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

<rant>
I very much agree with the DirecTV vs. Dish sentiment. My experience may not be typical, but it was very, very annoying. I spent an afternoon trying to get service for my grandmother. I called DirecTV, they referred me to a regional installer, who gave me the number of a local installer who asked for my zip code who then told me they couldn't install there. I called DishTV. One call, just ONE CAll was all it took. Made an appointment and the guy actually showed up when he said he would. DishTV rules. And they're cheaper.
</rant>

I have both a single burner dual fuel and an old fashion two burner Coleman. I predict that you will like yours when it comes in.

Dual Fuel is good because gas is usually available in more places and makes the stove more flexable.

There is much discussion that follows on gas cans, which got me thinking. One advantage of Coleman Fuel is that it comes prepackaged in a storage container that is designed to sit on the shelf for months. I do not know how long an unopened can of Coleman Fuel is good, but I have used fuel from a partuallly used can that was several years old and still worked fine.

Right now a gallon can of camp fuel is about $4 at Wally World. When you consider that it comes in it's own storage container, that is not too bad compared to gas. A gallon or two stored with the stove is not a bad idea even if you have gas for multi-use. You can do a heap of cooking with a gallon of fuel and a Coleman stove.

Am I off base on this? For long term storage would sealed gallon containers of camp fuel be better than gas, assuming it is for use in a stove/lantern ?

You can also buy an adapter for your Coleman propane stove that hooks it up to a standard 20lb propane cannister - like on your barbeque grill.

http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemancom/detail.asp?product_id=5470A7931T&categoryid=27203

I suspect 20lbs of propane would keep you cooking for a while too.

Factory-sealed "coleman fuel" cans are a great way to cache stove & lantern fuel in my experience. The one gallon cans are best for SIP and the 1 quart cans are great for BoB. After sampling many other brands, I returned to and stick with Coleman brand because the factory seals are the best. <shrug> I prefered Blazo in Alaska, but the smallest increment I bought that in was 5 gallon cans and they are NOT sealed as well as the Coleman cans.

This spring I cracked open a can (out of a couple of cases) that I know is 11 years old - fuel was like-new in appearance, odor, and performance in my stove. But in a damp or salt-air environment the cans will get rusty on the outside and that implies a long-term storage concern (rust-thru). I'm guessing that there are solutions to that, such as spraying the outside with LPS2 or LPS3 or RiG... etc.

We have more Coleman green boxes than we should have... but never have purchased dual fuel versions. We DO have conversion generators for the liquid fuel stoves that allow us to substitute LP gas for the liquid fuel and that is quite nifty - IIRC, they are Primus brand, but in any event, they work quite well. Remove the fuel tank and plug in the propane generator - takes 5 seconds if you're slow. We also have various hoses and adaptors, so a basic green box readily burns white gas, disposable propane cylinders, or bulk cylinders. If you apply that to a dual-fuel green box, it's even more versitile. FWIW, I have burned both Mogas and Avgas in a regular green box and it worked fine (a little stinky); just carboned-up the generators a bit. A good hot burn latter with standard fuel cleaned everything up just fine. I think I've only had to replace a generator once on a green box, and that was because of physical damage. Great gear.

We have a 3-burner propane only green box as well and while I like it fine, it's not as versitile as the liquid fuel stoves coupled with a propane generator.

Tom

Thank you. I last looked at this technology about 5 years ago, and the prices were twice that. I have since moved, and simply cannot put up a dish now. But I am imtrigued by the possibilites of economical portable solutions, short of Irridium technology. Maybe I'm behind the curve on that as well. Those prices may well have come down, too.

Maybe Benjammin isn't too busy beign on vacation to chime in here.

At the rate things are going, I hope my range rover will run on camp gas at $4 a gallon.

Thanks again. The RV class gear is probably beyond the realm of practicallity -- it certainly is for me -- I don't want to maintain an RV.

It looks as thought he state of the art is still Irridium sat phone with its inherent expenses, or go up to dish level technology with inherent losses of portability.

One of the things that always bothered me about DirecTV was alleged necessity of constant phone line service.

Yes. I had a photojournalist friend -- killed in Iraq, oddly enough -- who relied upon a European sat phone/net connection. Can't ask him now.

Well, we have progress. Yesterday, the mial came for the first time, and at noon today, we have POWER!! But on the down side, our old fridge gave up the ghost. It worked OK this morning but when I went to move it to plug in the new extension I wrote about, it sadly expired. It wanted donations to the "Ancient Frigidaire Home for Non-Icemakers" instead of flowers at the service. And a new fridge can't get here before Wednesday.

On to old news and clarifications.

We aren't stocking charcoal. if the new Coleman should fail or I don't horde enough gas, we'd have to cook over open fire. But fuel won't be a problem, I've got acres of highly flammable pine forest to pick over.

The generator is a Porter Cable 5250 continuous watts with higher surge. It burns about 5 gal per 12 to 14 hour day. Easy to start. We'll be changing the oil tomorrow before storage, and I'll run it every couple of months to keep it and us in practice.

Now for something new.

For light we couldn't use candles since my mom is here, she's on O2 part time. Oxygen and flames are a bad combo. So we had to use electric torches. We had numerous varities, including the Photons. But one of the nice surprises were some hand crank lights from Walgreen's, $14.99 each. Very effective.

But for next time, I'll get four Krill lights, two 180's and two 360's with rechargeables and a small solar charger. Unfortunately many of the neato lights use 123's or other batteries while AA's are highly available even in times of crisis.

Tomorrow more tree clearing, and Monday I get to haul the spare barn roof I have to the dump.

More reports as necessary.

Peanut

Izzy, I have a Honda EX-1000 generator that I bought several years ago. It is 1000W and starts on first pull every time. I paid $599 plus shipping from Harbor Freight. It weighs 65 pounds, takes just under a gallon of gas and will run all night on a light to moderate load.

This model has been replaced by the EU1000, 1000 watts, and weighs only 29 pounds. I don't know how them managed to shed so many pounds. I see it on eBay in the 500-600+ range. One is advertised for $638 with free shipping. (Item 7545465729). These little Hondas cost more than others but they run forever and are well built. To see a bunch of Hondas, search eBay "HONDA GENERATORS". There are several used ones for sale. Some are probably bargains but I am leery of a used one not knowing if it has been abused, do all the accessories and manual come with it, etc. You won't go wrong with Honda no matter what size you buy. They have several model 7500's going for around $900. I wish I could afford one of them. Problem with a big generator is the seller doesn't want to ship and if he does, the shipping is rather high although I got a big one from Chicago about ten years ago and it was only $30 to West Kentucky by motor freight.

An added feature of these little generators is they come with a little cable and clips to charge 12V batteries.

I have had three big generators, all with Briggs engines and they all blew up. The last one, not very old threw the piston completely thru the aluminum housing. Needless to say, I couldn't patch this hole with J B Weld. It was just out of warranty and Briggs essentially said, "Tough luck". Had the I/C engine too! No more Briggs for me. It had low oil shutoff but it failed to work and the engine blew. <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I don't have a lot of experience with small motors, but we have run a lot of spray rigs and APUs over the years, and after a lot of bitter experience, never bought anything other than Tecumseh engines.

Just wanted to add that I have a diesel generator, which I like a lot better then gas generators. It will run off gas mixed with motor oil, taxed diesel, untaxed diesel, home heating oil, vegetable oil, you name it. Plus being I have a 1000 gallons of diesel up at my yard for running equipment I don't expect to run out any time soon. Also, in an emergency diesel is usually easier to find then gas. Also, diesel isn't as dangerous as gas to store. Just a thought to add.

Well, Izzy, after I blew the last Briggs I decided to go with Generac so I bought a 4000XL in June, 2001. Ha! Rid of Briggs at last! Then guess what? Briggs bought out Generac! Thats my kind of luck. The Generac runs and starts fine...............until it gets below 30 and it wouldn't start for hell or high water. Took it to small engine repair place and they said a new $60 carb would cure the problem. I now have a spare carb and a generator that still won't start below 30. I never know if I am choking it enough or too much but as I don't smell gas, I don't figure I have flooded it. I am reasonably sure it is a female generator with a mind of it's own. It sure as hell won't start if it doesn't want to. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the info. I will look into it.

The generator I got was 100% Generac. It came straight from the factory in Wisconsin to my home in Kentucky. As a matter of fact I ordered it one day and the next morning it was in my driveway. The driver said I just got lucky as the generator made all the right connections.

One more thing. You keep referring to "B&G". Do you mean B&S or do you know something I don't? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

You didn't really respond to my post. Are the bigger Tecumseh engines good for generators or not?

I've had a 16 horse that sat out in the weather on a spray rig for over 10 years. They don't exactly start on the first pull, but on a 16, the first pull is a little tough. But it always runs.

OK. Now I understand B&G.

On the subject of wiring for a standby generator when the house is being built always brings to mind an idea that I have had for some time. If I had had it in 1976 when I built my house, I would have done it. My idea is to wire a new house with low voltage wiring (12V) and install an appropriate number of decent looking light fixtures throughout. In addition of course to your regular wiring. What I am saying is essentially to wire the house the same as a modern travel trailer is wired with a couple of deep cycle batteries and a 12V charger, about 50 amps I would say. Older trailers had what they called a power converter. When 110V was disconnected, a relay closed and the batteries kicked in to supply 12V lighting, radio, etc. Restore the 110V and the converter switched off the batteries and supplied 12V converted from 110V. The converter did have a trickle charge going to the batterys when on 110V. What it boils down to is if the power fails in your house, the 12V kicks in and you have lights and whatever else you have that runs on 12V. Like small fans, etc. There are a number of TV's that operate on 12V also. Add a propane cook stove and you pretty well have all you need to be reasonably comfortable. The system doesn't replace a standby generator but it gives you reasonable comfort during a power failure without the generator. You would need a generator of course to keep the batteries charged if the power failure lasted for an extended period, that is, several days. The size of the generator would depend on whether you wanted to power your air conditioner and microwave. If you want hot water, get a propane water heater when you build the house. (Please don't call it a "hot water heater". There is no such thing. It is a COLD water heater.) Remember, you can get a good sized RV refrigerator and mount it in your house. It runs off 110V or propane. Even on propane though, it still requires 12V though for the circuit board. Just an idea but with some thought and planning, especially when building a new house, it doesn't seem all that expensive to consider.

Anybody else want to weigh in make suggestions on this idea? Maybe this is the subject for a new post as this one has gotten completely off subject. In rereading the post, I don't think I made everything quite clear. It is clear in my mind but that doesn't help the reader does it? As I have said before, I just CANNOT be brief as hard as I try. Just one of my flaws I guess. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Randjack, let me butt in here. I have a large Tecumseh I got at a steal. It has a side pulley which "could" run certain generators but the rig would be belt driven. Most generators that I have seen are shaft driven. I don't think the Tecumseh would develop the RPM's to power a generator. Most generators I have seen have to run about 3650 RPMs to provide voltage in the 110-120 volt range. The voltage is in direct proportion to the RPMs of the motor. There is also the matter of adjusting it to run on 60 cycles but I am not going to wade into that. Short answer, in my opinion, unless your engine is shaft driven and you can get it up to about 3650 RPMS, it won't work as a generator motor. And then there is the matter of shaft diameter, is it tapered or straight. It will have to be compatible with the shaft hole in the generator you intend to power. And if you overcome all this, consider that the generator is going to have to be supported and aligned with the motor so you will have to make your own brackets or rubber supports or whatever to make the generator line up with the motor. Sounds like a nightmare to me. Just my opinion though. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Been looking at doing the same thing myself. 12v automotive wire is inexpensive in bulk from someplace such as waytek wire, I've been meaning to drop a pair or two down through the wall in each room. I intend of taking the transformer and rectifier from an alarm clock and powering it straight from 12v as well as things such as my cell phone charger, just replace the wall wart with a regulator for whatever voltage the charger requires and eventually placing a solar cell on the house roof to charge the 12v battery. There are plenty of LED automotive replacement lamps as well. I bought some but founf them too dim and blue for dahs lights so I'm going to make some small lamps form them.

Don't bother trying to generate 120v from it. Pick up a GM alternator from a local parts store or junk yead and use the Engine and alternator combo to charge your low voltage battery for your backup system.
Its pretty easy to drop new wires though the walls, espically low voltage 12v wires, crawl in the attic and find the top of a wall, drill a hole and poke a stiff wire in then cut a hole near the bottom for a box and usually you can reach in the hole and grab the wire you have fed in. I use an old 8' cb antenna since it will bend enough to go through the hole but spring back straight inside the wall. You do the same thing to run phone or network wires.

It's been done. Some folks kind of went the other route, doing primary wiring for 12v with some supplemental mains wiring for appliances that were hard/impossible to get in 12v. See old issues of Mother Earth News and similar alternative lifestyle publications.

There are some things to consider, the first of which is proper sizing of conductors - at 12v DC (more like 14.5 or so from lead-acid batteries), the amperage needed for a given amount of power (or light) is huge compared to 120v AC. Amperage, more than anything, drives conductor size. Look at the gauge of your starter motor cable. But while a 12 ga wire might safely carry a 20 amp AC circuit in your house, it may be undersized for a 20 amp 12v DC load because: In addition to the ampacity considerations, factor in voltage drop - long runs of 12v DC have to be up-sized to prevent voltage drop. And that 20 amp 12v DC load is only 240 watts.

12v will start a fire just as readily as any other voltage, so if you run wires for 12v power, I suggest that you put properly-sized over-current protection at the source - automotive fuses would be the simplest and cheapest way to do this.

Secondary batteries, particularly lead-acid, require maintenance and eventually need to be replaced. A whole topic on its own, but it can be a significant cost and PITA, which is why the current trend in PV and Wind home power is to use the grid as your "battery" instead of how Izzy's friend does it with a battery bank. Grid banking does us no good in an outage, of course.

In a bank that is wired in series to give higher voltages, one bad cell (or battery) cripples or takes out your whole system, depending on the exact failure. In systems wired in parallel for more ampacity, a bad cell or battery drains the good ones - one reason dual battery vehicles (like my trucks with Warn winches) use a battery isolator to keep the two (or three) batteries invisible to each other - I suspect that RVs with an on-board deep-cycle battery have a battery isolator wired in, regardless of whether or not one can readily see it.

There's the whole topic of venting gas, acid fumes, etc etc - best to not just stick some LA batteries in a closet or garage somewhere. These and other considerations are why almost no battery-backed emergency lighting is powered from a central battery bank - the batteries (and individual chargers) are located right at the fixture.

I don't think it is a bad idea, mind you. Just cautioning that there are few things to research before jumping in and doing it.

Regards,

Tom

I do something similar.
I have all my gear in one location, mostly packed in small boxes and bags. I use mostly Pelican Micro cases and some boxes from Ultimate Survival. (which I think are made by Otterbox but I have only just found where I can get the Otterboxes here in Australia)
Ive label the contents on all of them using a little brother labeling machine.
I have 4 different size backpacks. I keep my medium large sized pack stocked but open so can quickly zip it and run, but I keep spares and extra stuff organised arround it.
Depending on what I am doing day to day, I move gear backwards and forwards between the 4 packs.
I have forced myself to always leave 1 pack ready to go, for emergencies, and if I take thing out of the boxes for an activity I always put it back in its place before going to bed.
I can walk up and say I need this box, this box, etc and know I have everything I need and I have a couple of boxes spare so I can chop and change as I need.
Its hard to explain exactly what I mean, but It works for me.
One way it does work well is with Batteries. I have 3 different size boxes setup for different situations.
Day to day I use mostly rechargable batteries but the lithiums are there for backup. So I grab the lithium box for the bottom of the bag, then 1 of the other boxes with different amount and sizes ready to go.
Most of my spares and extras are organised into different size fishing tackle type boxes, but the grab and go stuff works better for me in the micro case type boxes.
I figure in an evac type situation, the 4wd backs up the the window next to where its all located and everything gets thrown in the back, (theres a box of clothes ready too) then the rest of my gear in the shed goes in next then lastminute grabs from about the house. I figure about 15+ minutes and Im on the road if pushed.

RE 12vdc wiring of building
I suggest you subscribe (or read onlne) home power magazine. The subject is very complex and requires a lot of planning and $$$$$. Most places use 48vdc battery banks with a large inverter to 120. Line losses are the big killer. do some research on the wire sizes needed and then cost them out. Big bucks.

nomad

The agency I have been working with was with out power for 5 days. We were using a surplus military 8 KW diesel generator. At 25% load, it ran 18 hours on 10 gallons of fuel. Because of who we are and more importantly, who we knew, we were able to obtain Jet A to keep the generator fueled. Note: Do Not go down to your local airport and ask to buy Jet fuel or aviation gasoliine. They can't sell it to you (it's primarily a tax thing).

Jim

My last house was built in 1947. It has an unusual low voltage sytem in which relays are actuated by a low voltage circuit. Its kind of neat, becaue the relay is placed near the load, and doorbell wire is from from the switch. Therefore, you can have a switch activating a light or device 10 feet away or 100 feet away without having to run full current handling cable. The wall switches are momentary contact rockers. The parts are rather hard to find, and very few electricians have ever even seems these systems.

I'm familiar with those. My wife's grandmother's "new" house (1948) in Clarksville, TN is wired with those - and you're right, parts are hard to come by. There are superficially similar lighting controls available nowadays, but I only encounter them in high-end commercial buildings, usually for 277 volt lights.

The supply wiring for the loads is conventional, of course.

To a point, higher voltage is more "efficient" than low voltage. Power is a product of voltage and amperage and to supply the same amount of power (or light), the amperage must go up a commensurate amount. What takes 1 amp at 120v takes 10 amps at 12v and so on. When the current goes up, so must the conductor size, also in a commensurate fashion. A wire rated for 10 amps will have about 10 times the effective cross section of a wire rated for 1 amp.

It's a little more involved comparing 12v DC to 120v AC when the discussion is power, but the principle applies AC to AC or DC to DC - lower voltage requires higher amperage for an equal amount of power (motor size, amount of light produced, heating element, etc)

TANSTAAFL.

Tom

You are correct. My house was designed & built by O'Neil Ford. He was very heavily into the housing for the masses movement post-WWII. He was the principle architect for the 1968 Hemisfair here. Among the other oddities of my house was that it was originally heated and cooled with central plant usiong ammonia coolant. There were 4 seperate air handlers located in different parts of the house. The central plant was about the size of a VW bug. I have no idea how efficient is was, as the house was retrofitted with conventional HVAC long before I got it. It is a flat roofed house with 4' eaves all around. Despite having huge windows, it has very little sun load.