(Where's that durn fire extinguisher when I need it...)<br><br>Hmmm, I've had to delete my reply a few times. OK, several times. Your words are noted. I guess I'm pretty hot, and re-reading your post, for good reasons. Let's drop it the subject. I'm personally not learning anything useful from this sort of exchange.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

AAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...<br><br><br>I've just torn out the last of my hair. <br><br>John<br><br>

Hmm. Well, I suspect that your first paragraph is what’s causing the heartburn, and that’s well past the area that I’m qualified to comment on, again, never having been a Scout and not being a parent... and it's probably best to steer around issues of politics, religion and sex here. <br><br>About the most I can say, is that I’ve run across Scout troops in the woods from time to time, and they seem to vary more in character than one would expect from a large institution- on the other hand, it’s been a lot of years since I encountered even one such group, so possibly that has changed as well.<br><br>On a more theoretical note, I always thought there was a lot of wisdom in the system that evolved in England and Europe over several hundred years, and which we abandoned, perhaps prematurely, a with the Industrial Revolution.<br><br>Basically, a boys life was divided into sevens… for the first seven years, he was primarily the mother’s responsibility, and she was in charge of teaching him the basics of domestic life, hygiene and housekeeping.<br><br>At around 7 years old the boy became primarily the responsibility of his father, learning his father’s trades and skills, and the basics of a man’s role.<br><br>At 14 years, as most of us know, most boys have learned all they’re prepared to learn from Mom and Dad, and are growing increasingly impatient with them. Generally, though, they will respect and learn from an adult outside the family, and that’s where the apprentice system came in. A contract was signed which traded 7 years of the boy’s labor in exchange for room and board, training in a trade to journeyman level, a set of basic tools for his craft, and a suit of clothes at completion. With any luck, he emerged at age 21 (hence the age of majority) with experience and training in 3 different worlds, and able to make a living for himself.<br><br>No system is perfect, of course, but this seemed to match pretty well the natural tendencies of growing boys, and trying to keep most at home until age 18, much less 21, creates huge strains. I think I sort of hoped that Scouting took over at least some of the role left vacant by the apprenticeship stage when it disappeared.<br>

here, here!!!!!!<br>thank you cyberraven and presumed lost! <br>being one of the youth you guys are talking about(well not quite, i'm am english youth) I am quite shocked as to some of the peoples views on kids and knives. <br>I don't really know what to say. <br>I think you are definitly not giveing them any where near enough credit. <br>once again thank you cyberraven and presumed lost.<br>-james <br>P.S I may sound angry and I may be being rude about other peoples views wich is something I allways try and avoid. I am angry, and well... insulted at what you think of the "youth of today".

Folks, I've just re-read at all of my posts in this thread (and several others) and I really do not understand where all this umbrage directed at "us" (us? us who?) is coming from.<br><br>Some examples: <br><br><<I am quite shocked as to some of the peoples views on kids and knives>><br><br>Whose views are those you refer to? I didn't appreciate a couple of anti-whatever posts that were preachy and seemed to put words in my mouth and ascribe actions to me that are completely false, but it seems to me - re-reading these posts - that you might be refering to those allegations about others views of youth rather than any expressed by me or other scouters? Or perhaps I misunderstand what you wrote...?<br><br><<I think you are definitly not giveing them any where near enough credit>><br><br>Who is"you"? I've made no statement about what kids may or may not be capable of and I'm trying hard to keep from responding in detail to a rather presumptuous, insulting, and inflamatory post made recently. Again, could it be that your comment derives from that post and similar (more restrained) ones, rather than anything I or other scouters have written? If so, your comment is mis-aimed. Again, I may be misunderstanding what you mean...<br><br><<insulted at what you think of the "youth of today". >> <br><br>I do not believe I have stated in this thread or others what *I* think of today's kids. Neither I nor my kids remotely resemble those persons described in other posts, and some folks don't have a clue about how some of us raise our kids (in the city), although if they weren't so quick with the keyboard, they could actually read some previous discussions and get a strong idea that it isn't anything like the derisive picture that was painted.<br><br>I believe that I agree with a LOT of the sentiments expressed by folks who seem to think very poorly of parents, scouts, scouters, etc. I am pretty upset with the choice of apparant targets of some of those posts. Please go back and note WHO wrote the passages that have inflamed you - was it us evil-stupid-parent-scouters who wrote those passages, or...?<br><br>Now, if I completely mis-understand your post, forgive me. Tell me exactly what I said that triggered your remarks so I can understand where you are coming from.<br><br>I am NOT trying to insult you or anyone else, nor do I wish to inflame matters. But if the loud noises are coming from a contemporary, accurately informed, knowledgable source, I will fall out of my chair in shock. Some of the loud noises sound like fanatic religious rants against some mythic evil doers - how ironic!<br><br>I sure hope this is the last post I make on this topic - I wish it would drop and die, because I'm not learning anything useful from this, and some folks seem to have their undies in a bundle for reasons that don't make sense to me.<br><br>Thanks for reading through this post - I enjoy 99.99% of the posts and dialogues here and have learned a number of useful tidbits. More than enough said by me; I'm quits with this thread.<br><br>Tom

Tom, it isn't a specific you, but a generic towards the world in general.<br><br>As far scouting s concerned, leavingout the politics, I've had the chance to watch only my younger brother's troop. He was the unoffical head of a group of rebels who did things like winter camping on thier own, repelling, and learned woodscraft. I taught that group a lot, outside of thier troop, becuase thier leaders were more of the macaroni-project types. That's fine for cub scouts, maybe, but boy scouts? Camping from cars, rather than walking in to the site. The only tme anything even remotely risky was attempted by a new scout leader, these rebels basically mutinied becuase he was needlessly endangering scouters on a winter campout- no rations, minimal water, all kinds of garbage that would have landed the troop in court if something unscoutly hadn't happened.<br><br>These are the same rebels who bulled through a fire/rescue explorer post that did things like actually show up at fire grounds, much to the horror of the council. <br><br>And they all got thier Eagle, and they all were OA. And they all left in disgust after thier troop decided that it was too dangerous to teach knives and fire making when they had kids who lit fires and used knives in inappropriate manners already. Never mind throwing out the psychos, just punish everyone else. <br><br>Maybe I'm in an area that needs a major house cleaning. But every scout troop I've seen hasn't impressed me. The kids who want to learn fieldcraft leave and learn on thier own, becuase they are bored. The only ones left are the ones who's parents make them go, thinking that it is a good influence, while thier little monsters would rather be out torturing small animals and lighting fires. (I'm not making that up- I know some of the kids in question, and some of them had already been in juvi court by the age of 10.) <br><br>When it comes parenting, a lot of us here are or will be trying to raise kids right, to make sure they know about something other than the couch. But most parents aren't- and I don't buy the "too busy just making ends meet" line, becuase my mom did, by herself, with a three boys and girl. I mght be the most comfortable living from a twenty pound pack for a week, but we all can do it. We all knew how to use a knife by the time we were 8. We all knew how to shoot by age 9. We all learned that nature isn't a special on the Discovery Channel, but as real or more so than anything that humans wrap themselves up in, try to escape it.<br><br>And part of it is, we as the older generations, don't think the younger generations can do things. We, as a culture, shelter them and insulate them from anything that isn't synthetic. And part of that is the growing urban concentration- I consider raising a kid int he city a form of neglect, becuase they never get to see the stars or white snow or clean water or anything else natural. And then when city folk move to the rural areas, they whine becuase they don't want the real country, but rather the cute and cuddly and sanitized for thier protection green acres version. <br><br>It isn't attack on anyone person. It's a complaint about an organization that has, in my experince, left it roots, and about a society that seems to be collapsing under the weight of the clueless. A rant. A venting. <br><br>And nothing personal.

Two comments, hoefully in non-flame mode.<br><br>One, each troop, or any organization for that matter, while vary in philosphy, atmosphere and culture. Troops can be sponsored by non-religious organizations, such as a PTA or Moose Lodge or whatever. Each of these institutions would impart a different "flavor." The BSA provides a framework for the chartering organizations to follow. Most organizations actually take a back seat and have only a moderate amount of influence over the troop's culture. Others, like the Church of Later Day Saints, take an active role and their beliefs are very much evident in the way the troop is run. It's unfortunate that your experience or perception of scouting was soured somewhere down the line.<br><br>Two, there's a big difference on the level of responsibilities and skills a group leader should teach youth from what a parent teaches. You're brother is within his rights to provide basic firearm and knife safety instructions to his four-year-old son. I, as a Scout leader, cannot make such decisions for other people's children. It wouldn't be ethical and it would likely result in a huge legal liability. Remember, these organizations are not meant to replace child-rearing parents, although that happens sometimes. <br><br>If your nephew were to decide to join scouting down the road, his troop would be better off because of his experience, and I believe he can benifit from the experience too. I personally take the position that the skills and knowledge the boys acquire through the program are seconday to the confidence and leadership they develop by participating. <br><br>If you're still reading this far down, thanks for taking the time to hear me out. BTW, I think it's cool that you and your brother spend so much time with your nephew. I know too many people that don't and you can see the difference in the child. Kudos to you both!<br><br>

Whew! Here I am contributing again to the thread that just won't die. But I have a few comments about your last post.<br><br>1. There are good troops and there are bad troops. And it's usually the quality and quantity of the leaders involved that makes a difference. Remember that some of the volunteer leaders have no background in the outdoors. But they are volunteering and they are involved. BSA has training programs to help teach basic outdoor skills to leaders, but nothing compares to actual experience. My troop as a youth was not into wilderness or winter camping. So my skills in that area are weak, hence I'm trying to learn from my peers and resources such as this site/forum. But even without a high adventure program, I benifited greatly from the program and would not have given it up at any cost.<br><br>2. If your brother was active in scouting during the mid-seventies, then your comments make more sense. BSA changed the program in order to make it more accesable to inner-city youth. It's now referred to as a period when they took the "out" out of "scouting." A scout could actually reach the rank of Eagle without having ever learned how to light a fire. Membership took a huge nose dive frpom which they never recovered. They put the "out" back in during the early eighties. They even commissioned an earlier author of the Scout Manual, "Green Bar Bill," to rewrite the urban version.<br><br>3. I hate Cub Scout macaronni projects too!

hey all! <br>it's the youth of today back at the keybord, typing before he thinks.<br>well cyberraven at first I thought "how the hell does he know whether it was a rant or or wether it was personel" but I soon relised it was a rant and a vent. <br>I apolegise to all who'm are involed. I got very angry as I think i've allredy said and well the reply butten looked so very inviteing.<br>how ever (you knew there was more didn't you?!) as for this remark by Ayers T G : Some of the loud noises sound like fanatic religious rants against some mythic evil doers - how ironic!<br>erm well I don't understand all of that. I would like to know what you ment so as I can do a bit more venting, it sound like it was ment to be rude, but i'm not certain. <br>once again I apolgise for the ranting and venting. <br>-james

I agree with you that there are things that parents should be teaching. The thing is, they expect (when it comes to things like knives and fires and knowing what leave is safe to whipe your butt with) to BSA, becuase thier scout leaders taught them. Just like they expect the schools to teach thier kids everything else. <br><br>Instead, at least in my experinces, the local scout troops seem to specialize in recreational crafts therapy for bipedal vegetables. So the kids who want to learn either suffer or leave.<br><br>As for spending time, wish it was more. My brother and I are fighting the trend that my former sister-in-law propegates- let someone else do your thinking for you, and you will be ok, becuase they will feed you and entertain you. <br><br>And he'd probably scare his scout leaders into gibbering insanity- if we can keep his mother from corrupting him too much, he's going to be bigger, faster, stronger and smarter than anyone in his pear group. Not to mention a lot more confident and skilled. His brain will either explode from overload or he'll be mistaken for a god by the time he's 25. :)<br><br>