Bill,<br><br>Like Tom, I don't have any specific knives to recommend. I too am lacking in expertise here. Be sure to read Doug's advice re knives. I also agree wholeheartedly agree with Tom's comments above. My oldest son is 11 1/2. He will soon be getting his own such knife. The following are some of the criteria we will use in selecting his knife. <br><br>It will probably be a Gerber or Buck. They're readily available, tough, well made, and not that expensive (if disaster strikes it). They may also be found on sale at irresistable prices. A good warranty can come in handy down the line, although none of us ever expects to use it. A long-lived, American manufacturer is helpful & convenient when a warranty is an issue. Obviously a nearby manufacturer is extremely handy when things turn out not to work right. <br><br>It will probably be stainless steel. Carbon steel may offer better edges, but eventually the advantage in ease of care for stainless steel especially for a teenager (or his preoccupied father) predominates. <br><br>It will be a general purpose knife suitable for cleaning & skinning game, & camping/wilderness use. The blade will be about 4 - 5" long, & be of medium thickness in the spine. The overall configuration, dimensions, & balance need to fit the boy; so care is necessary as to size. A spear or drop point blade seems offers maximum versatility & strength for a knife of this purpose. A full tang is appropriate for strength. <br><br>A fixed blade sheath knife is strong, rugged, & foolproof in its mechanical simplicity. It cannot accidentally close on the user's hand no matter how difficult the task. Much of the time in scouting,they are not needed. But under challenging circumstances, a folder cannot equal a fixed blade. Both of my sons regularly carry SAKs for mundane chores. They have been trained appropriately, & have lots of opportunity for practice. The older boy's Leatherman Wave helps avoid any temptation to misuse his knife; it also stimulates his mechanical aptitudes {for better or for worse :-) }. <br><br>That's our approach. <br><br>John <br><br>

I've read this thread with some interest, but never even considered having something to contribute, not having been a scout (to my regret, FWIW), and not being a parent or involved in scouts, I assumed I was unqualified to comment.<br><br>I have to admit, though, that I was jarred, after reading this thread, at how old the kids are that are being talked about so protectively.<br><br>Ok, so maybe knife nuts are born and not raised... but just to put things in perspective... I admit I have no idea how old I was when I got my first pocket knife (I do remember the one), but it had to be eight or younger. I know that by nine years old I had several jack knives and one sheath (all right, "fixed blade") knife. More to the point, I guess... nobody ever gave me one as a kid, and I don't remember asking permission, I bought them myself.<br><br>As I said, I'm not qualified to comment, but listening to all of this protective rumination about dull edges and dull points, and practicing with soap, and what they will and will not be "allowed" to have, I had assumed that these kids were MUCH younger than teenagers. Maybe you're not giving them enough credit for common sense?

Right on! I had a similar experience growing up - somewhere around eight or so, Dad handed me a pocket knife, told me to be sure to always cut away from myself, and keep body parts away from the cutting edge (I retain a scar on my left palm from one occasion when these guidelines were not observed - happened much later when I really should have known better). Much the same with firearms - I never learned anything about weapons safety from military and law enforcement training that Dad hadn't taught me already. He raised me himself and didn't turn me over to a corporate entity like the BSA.

<< He raised me himself and didn't turn me over to a corporate entity like the BSA >><br><br>Preaching to the choir? Problem is, most ("Dads") don't. And that is not a new circumstance in industrialized cultures - it's at the root of why B-P formed Scouting in the first place. Voluntary community involvement (vs involuntary thru the wallet)... Take a guess at how many (middle class) kids in our troop have Dads who are regularly involved with their boys at the level you and I experienced. It's sobering and scary to me. BSA is not the only way to help the situation. It takes a lot of (my) time, though.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

To add to Tom's reply...<br><br>The age limit is rather arbitrary. I beleive my Cub Scout age son is mature enough to handle a knife responsibly. But I've seen 15 & 16 year olds that shouldn't be allowed to carry one. Check that, I've seen adults that shouldn't be allowed to carry knives, and that includes a few Scout leaders.<br><br>The BSA provides structure and guidelines for leaders and Scouts. Not all of them make sense, and some are purely for liabilty protection. Overall, the guidelines make sense, but it's still up to the leaders to provide that last step, complete that last link between the program and the boys.<br><br>Like Tom said, you'd be surprised at the number of boys who either don't have a father to show them the ropes. Either they are missing from their life as a result of single parenthood, which is far too common, or the father themselfs don't have the knowledge or skill to pass on to their sons. That doesn't make them bad fathers, just fathers with different skill sets and life experiences. <br><br>I enjoy Scouting as much as my sons do. I try to use the experience to further my knowledge. I take advantage of the other leaders and their skills and backgrounds. And you can even learn things from the kids... really!<br><br>Today there are a lot of "common sense" rules that we used to follow that we no longer adhere to in many places. When I was a young lad, the standing rule was to come home when the street lights come on. My folks really had no idea where I was or what I was up to (although the neighbors tended to keep an eye on each other's kids as they roamed the neighborhood). Today, I don't let my kids go out without knowing where they are or when they'll be back. If they go from one friend's house to another, they call first to let us know. A young lad with a folding knife in his pocket at school wouldn't have even been noticed, as I did with my Cub Scout knife my dad bought me. But today, the metal detectors would flash and perhaps some serious legal charges would be filed. A few years ago a nearby middle school expelled a student for bringing a dummy hand granade his father used as a paperweight to school to show his buddies.<br><br>My point is, that was then, this is now. Things that were once common practice may not be the most prudent course of action today. I do know that my oldest son received his first knife when he passed his Scout Tote-'n-chip requirements. And he has never abused the tool or the right to have it.<br><br>P.S. I'm not being critical of your comments at all, just trying to add my observations and thoughts to them.

John, it may not solely be a function of narrow mindedness, but may be the result of ignorance of the proper guideline. The BSA policy is not clear and I suspect that most Scouters would be under the belief that they are outlawed.<br><br>So print out a copy of the actual policy and present it to any leader that questions your use of a fixed blade knife. Some may not be open to the idea, but some will.

Thanks for the tip. Both the Speider "Scout" and the Speiderkniven "Girl Scout" look promising. Not too expensive, generous finger guard, not to heavy and a shorter, more manageable blade for scouts. The sheaths even have the Norwegian scout emblem to add an aire of authenticity to those who may question a sheath knife, ;-)<br><br>The Speiderkniven gives me a way to make sure my young daughter is covered when she gets old enough for her own knife too.

You comments of using the Barnekniven as a unit resource makes sense. You are right on how a non-locking folder can be tough for scouts to master. <br><br>We have two leaders that are exceptional at teaching Tote-'n-chip. They were the first to introduce me to diamond sharpeners, what a difference. My blades have never been so sharp. <br><br>re: wet dry sand paper<br><br>I have some emery cloth laying around. Is there a specific grit that's useful? (I can't remember what I have off the top of my head, but it's very fine)

Bill,<br><br>You may be right about the narrow mindedness & keeping a copy of the rule handy. I think I need to embark on a program of continuing education for some scouters. Who knows--there may be more troglodytes like me around. Anyway, we'll see how it works. Nothing to lose & a lot to gain.<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>John

Tom & Bill have nearly said it all. <br><br>Probably most of us in this forum are fairly adept in skills relating to the outdoors (including using knives). Otherwise it would not be satisfying, & we wouldn't have an interest in this subject. As Bill & Tom have noted, many kids do not have parents participating in their activities, or the parents themselves lack the skills to pass onto their children. Many kids do not have their own individual sources from which to learn such skills, and they have not had the good luck to learn them on their own.<br><br>Scouting provides a program through which children can learn outdoor skills. In effect, it is a school for outdoor skills, among other things. Its programs are designed to be appropriate to the age of the participants, taking into account such factors as physical size & strength, attention spans, learning curves, judgment, and maturity. Its standards may be a little cautious & conservative, but they do work well. Remember, scouting does not limit boys from learning skills sooner with their parents or on their own. But if they have not otherwise already learned those skills, they will eventually have the opportunity to do so in scouting.<br><br>Knives with dull edges & points are simply training tools. They're analogous to dummy cartridges in a gun for learning & practicing various operations. <br><br>Have you ever felt the grip on a 9 year old. Kids of that age are not very strong, & their fine motor skills are not well developed yet. Carving wood is often too strenuous for them. Soap is a medium which they can comfortably cut, & with good control & direction. They succeed in carving something recognizable before they tire & lose attention. <br><br>Notwithstanding our criticisms, the scouting programs work well. Although I've had quite a bit of outdoor experience, I'm continuing to learn from the scouting programs & working with children & their parents.<br><br>John<br><br>