Bill, My friend @ Ragnar (www.ragweedforge.com) has a new offering, a "Barnekniven" or child's starter set. It consists of two scaled down knives, one with both blunt tip and edge and one with blunt tip but sharp edge, one sheath @ $28 by Brusletto Knives ( Norwegian.) It occured to my in a rare moment of lucidity what a great idea this is for children to learn safe handling and care. He also carries a few official scouting knives. Standard disclaimer " I have no financial involvement, indeed, he takes my money LOL.)

I'll have to think about this one for a bit. My first thought is "a dull knife is a dangerous knife." So what use is a blunt knife to a child. The blunt tip/sharp edge might be practical, but I'm still not convinced.<br><br>My Cub Scout age son has a knife which he's only allowed to carry and use with my permission when we are together. Even then I'm leary as we could become separated and he might accidentally hurt himself while lost. So I'm limiting it's use to around the campsite and I carry it for him on hikes.<br><br>Paranoid? maybe, but I'd rather play it safe.

Chris,<br><br>I dunno.<br><br>Conceptually it seems attractive. On the other hand, scouting looks askance on fixed blade sheath knives. Even folding knives are treated with great caution.<br><br>For instance, initial knife handling technique in Cub Scouts is done by whittling/carving item(s) out of soft soap. This year my youngest son started that achievement by making a wooden carving knife out of a popsickle stick which he shaped & sharpened on a sanding block. It actually worked quite well in helping him to learn how to make and then properly use a sharp (at least sharp relative to soft soap) in a risk-free environment. After demonstrating proper handling & cutting techniques, as well as verbally describing the techniques & safety rules, his den progressed into the use of pocket knives in carving objects out of wood. By spending several meetings, as well as numberous sessions at home with me carving, my youngest son is actually relatively adroit in handling & using his knife (even when compared with somewhat older boys).<br><br>At the Boy Scouting level, I haven't noticed a lot more boldness as to knives than in Cub Scouting. <br><br>After reflection, I believe the knife set you have described sounds good, but I doubt it would be very usable in Scouting. Scouting has become much more cautious than when we were Scouts.<br><br>Thanks for thinking of us.<br><br>John

...for an alternate opinion:<br><br>Chris,<br><br>Thanks for the info. I went to Ragweed Forge and found the knife set, looked at the pics and his description. Very cool idea - wish it had been around when our kids were younger. I like the green and red color coding idea as well. The "sharp" text description was a little mis-leading to me - it looks like a useful knife.<br><br>As for Scouts - I will take this info in with me to the next Troop Committee meeting for discussion - a few Troop-owned sets of these would be very useful for teaching and demonstrating almost all of the things the lads are supposed to master before earning the "right to carry" a knife (Toten' Chip) - actually, there is more to the Toten' Chip than knives, but it's where the path usually starts (axe and saw are part of it also). I think we should add a compliment of folders as well, but they would be for "advanced" instruction...<br><br>I believe that I have written previously about the incorrect presumption that scouts may not carry a fixed blade knife. That is (properly) a local decision. The only words that BSA has to say on the subject are found on page 78 of the current edition of the the handbook (11th Edition):<br><br>"NOTE: The Boy Scouts of America does not encourage the use of large sheath knives. They are heavy, awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores."<br><br>I have read and re-read this several times and find myself in complete agreement with it exactly as-written. I suspect it was very carefully worded. Keep in mind that we are dealing with boys as young as 10 1/2 years old (Cubs and Tigers are younger and generally not allowed the use of sharps).<br><br>In my experience, most non-elderly scouters make presumptions about fixed blade knives based on their personal (lack of) experiences growing up and our of well-intended concern for both the boys and the image of scouting. Hollywood, pop TV culture, and self-serving politics have certainly influenced us as well.<br><br>Another observation is that the great majority of scouters that I know are strictly "weekend woodsmen" - virtually the entire outdoors experience is confined to scouting in some form. While that is not a bad thing at all, when combined with my first observation, it seems to me that we are prone to being a bit rigid in some of our thinking. The absolutely finest scouters I know - measured by the values and behaviors of the boys they influence - are themselves consummate outdoorsmen who do NOT confine themselves to "traditional" scouting for their sole source of experiences. Mind you, I am not speaking of simply measuring the outdoor skills of the lads as an index - I mean over all; the well-rounded boy. Isn't that interesting? Of course, this is merely my observation, and others will have other views of the matter.<br><br>As for myself, I grew up (in the city) with a pocket knife in my pocket. Altho I remember the occasion lucidly, I do not remember when it was given to me - probably around 8 or 9 years old, but I had the use of knives (with supervision) earlier. As you might imagine, my paradigm is a bit different than my younger counterparts in Scouting. My younger brother had to leave his penknife at home by the time he entered Jr. High School, but the "the habit" of having a sharp tool on him stuck, and as soon as he cleared High School, a knife tool went back into his daily wear.<br><br>Our local Council has a policy of no fixed blade knives at long term ("summer") camp. I feel that is a generally appropriate and prudent policy for a number of reasons. But that is the ONLY policy on the subject - actually, a Council or District may NOT make those sorts of decisions for a Troop that is doing a Troop level (VS District or Council level) outing or campout. Food for thought, anyway, Scouters. YMMV.<br><br>My kids all learned about knives and earned theirs in family settings before they were of Boy Scout age. 3 boys and one girl -- we have applied precious few bandaids. Honestly, I have treated more adult scouter knife injuries in Scouting that I have kids (total; not just scouting kids) - not that there have been many, but that's the whole truth of my experiences to date.<br><br>BTW, I like the soap carving thing done by Cubs (John described it, I think). Not all of my boys did that, but the first time I saw it, I thought "Well, that's a cool way to do this - wish I had thought of something similar".<br><br>I am NOT advocating fixed blade knives for regular carry by Boy Scouts - I don't want to see Scouts wandering around campgrounds with a Busse Battlemistress strapped on LoL! But I think these knife sets can be very useful in the context of scouting for the intended purpose - teaching boys proper and safe knife usage without the extra hazards of opening and closing folders. Thanks again, Chris - keep those suggestions coming!<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Scouter Tom

Tom,<br><br>I think you are right in your interpretation of the express policy of scouting re fixed blade knives. More importantly, I'm delighted that the culture of scouting in your area is sufficiently enlightened, liberal, and realistic as to support the choice of fixed blade knives when appropriate.<br><br>I live in an area which is very politically correct, and therefore narrow, illiberal, & bigoted as to reality. In the approximately 4 years of my scouting, I have never seen at any outing or function a fixed blade sheath knife. That includes the several councils with which we regularly interact. Folding knives are regarded circumspectly and frequently absent even in the case of Boy Scouts of advanced rank (oblivious to the 10 Essentials rule). The ambient culture is hostile to and suspicious of knives generally. Having grown up on a ranch, and having regularly hunted (with the attendant cleaning of game) since the age of 10, I am struck by the close-mindedness & steadfast ignorance of the largely suburban/urban population in the region where I live. That attitude permeates the culture which gives rise to Scouts as well. Knives are simply not regarded as the wonderfully useful tool they really are.<br><br>My own children got knives around age 8. I have largely been the one who has taught them proper skills in handling & usage. Indeed, I suppose that is both a father's responsibility & privelege. They have had lots of opportunities to use & develop the the skills on our hunting, camping, & fishing trips, as well as at our ranch. I only wish our ambient culture were a little more supportive & nurturing of realistic skills, rather than being suspicious & hostile to them.<br><br>Incidentally, cherish the well-rounded outdoorsmen you have as scouters in your area; we don't get them in our scouting programs. <br><br>Enjoy & continue to cultivate your rich program--it's not that common.<br><br>John

>> scouting in your area is sufficiently enlightened, liberal, and realistic as to support the choice of fixed blade knives when appropriate<< <br><br>John, er, I don't guess we're all that different here. Depends on who talks to whom about what. There's a huge structure of folks behind the scenes working to develop and support the boys (and young women in the older programs). They don't even get the gratification of being around the scouts outdoors much, but they toil away. Sometimes it can be a real help to everyone if some unit leaders like us make the time to have some friendly dialogue with them - you might be happily surprised. <shrug> You may be more familiar than I am with the entities and folks above the unit level. I've been "drinking from a fire hose" the last couple of years, and it has been quite an eye opener.<br><br>>> I suppose that is both a father's responsibility & privelege <<<br><br>Indeed! But I'm afraid that sort of thing simply isn't possible for large numbers of kids today. So some of us step up to the plate... usually reluctantly at first. My wife has stated over and over again that we WILL remain active at the unit level as long as we are able, regardless of how old our kids are - there is too much at stake.<br><br>>> cherish the well-rounded outdoorsmen you have as scouters in your area <<<br><br>Pssht! Without even checking, I'm confident that you have plenty in your area. Let's see, there's you... the thing is, there are never enough to go around for all the units, and it can be exceptionally frustrating if the norm is "otherwise" in one's own unit. Sometimes I feel like things are "balkanized" these days in scouting - too many small units without enough breadth and depth of adult leadership. Those folks are out there, though - the trick is to find them and talk to them and get some useful spin off them to put to work in any one particular unit and/or district.<br><br>Although the unit (the Charter Organization) really calls the shots, there is a vast resource above it - usually invisible to the unit level scouters. If you can hack your way into that jungle, I hope you'll find the same "treasures" that I have recently discovered. Lots of good folks!<br><br>Good luck!<br><br>Tom<br><br>

Tom wrote:<br>>>>Our local Council has a policy of no fixed blade knives at long term ("summer") camp. I feel that is a generally appropriate and prudent policy for a number of reasons. <<<<br><br>As do I. There are no real camp activities that require such a tool and their presence may lead to situations where they may be abused. I have first hand experience along this line when I was a councilor at a summer camp in the early seventies.<br><br>However, after reading about survival and the comments on this forum, I feel the scouting program should add proper use of a fixed-blade knife to it’s program, especially for older boys. Perhaps a requirement for Camping or Wilderness Survival merit badges would be a good place, or as part of High Adventure programs (although that may be too limiting in participation). I may be wrong, but I don’t think they are mentioned in the Field Guide, which is targeted to older scouts.<br><br>I grew up in Scouting and never received training on a fixed-blade knife. As such, I don’t own one and am unsure how or why I would use one. As I said, I have read about their use, but reading and doing are two separate things in life. Perhaps it’s time I add such a knife to my wish list and start to learn about them myself!<br><br>

As an add on to my previous message...<br><br>I've pretty much ignored previous threads discussing fixed-blade knives. So now I don't have a real clue where to start looking. John & Tom, with Boy Scouting in mind, what would be some reasonably priced sheath knives that I can look into and.or suggest to scouts that are old enough and interested?<br><br>We mostly go car camping with one high adventure outing for the older boys each year. Last year it was a canoe trip in Boundary Waters, this year it's backpacking in the Bad Lands and next year they're shooting for a trip to Isle Royal.<br><br>Thanks

WV,<br><br>I'm not an expert on the subject, and what I allow my boys to own/carry/use on our own outings has been purpose-specific until recently. When we are hunting, they each have a Schrade Sharpfinger (in addition to personal SAK). Collectively they have a few other knives for other purposes. The eldest is flapping his wings pretty hard, and I've tossed a few things his way (gear), but he's an ASM now, not a young Scout. I have discouraged my boys from carry on the belt but that reflects my prejudices - you should pick your own <grin>. (I hope Chris and others jump in here with some ideas...)<br><br>Maybe it would be helpful to read through Doug's discussions on the site. My opinion is that until boys are full-stature, they are better served by "scaled down" knives for the most part, so I guess I lean towards somewhat smaller blades and overall size. And I've become an instant fan of (well made)Kydex/Concealex sheaths VS leather.<br><br>If you are considering the Bushman, I suggest strongly that the Mini-Bushman is "less large". I've some reservations about them, but Piet has reported great success with Bushman in his unit in Holland - you might ask him.<br><br>I thought the Barnekniven that Chris mentioned would be a great unit-level resource for new scouts as they first learn about knives. Gee, we stick the boys right off the bat with the most "difficult" knives; the ones most likely to bite the user - non-locking folders. (And locking ones have other quirks). Starting them off with supervised use of a small fixed blade and then graduating to a folder seems to make more sense to me.<br><br>I don't have any suggestions on specifics for you because I'm really not an expert; sorry. I'm hoping to hear some good ideas from folks myself.<br><br>Addendum: Just read Chris' post - I was kind of thinking there might be something suitable there - I spent some time wandering that site and they look useful. <br><br>A few of random thoughts that might be worth considering: Forget letting the boys chop anything other than veggies with a knife. It's a grown-up skill and hard on the knife to boot. Along those lines, various meal and food preparation chores account for a LOT of fixed blade use in MY outdoors - maybe there's something to that... Fixed blade knives (of suitable general-purpose shape) just beat the pants off any folder for shaping wood (I'm not talking minor whittling) - with care, they are fair drawknives, for example. That's an uncommon skill today but sure would be useful for scouts - even dressing a stave to use for a hiking staff can be excruciatingly frustrating with a conventional "scout knife". Another observation - middle ground on blade thickness. A Gerber Bird & Trout (if they still make them) is so useful that I have to retrieve it from my wife's kitchen whenever I want to take it out for some air - but it is much too thin for a general use knife - a boy would bend the blade sooner or later. At the other end, a fat-spined blade like my older Kershaw can be a real beast to properly re-sharpen sometimes - after many sharpenings, the blade needs to be re-profiled and that's a lot of work by hand. Something in between those extremes would make good sense, I think. Can it be used to split small (say, up to 2" diameter) wood for kindling? It would be nice if the knife was up to that task - and they could ding a knife up pretty easily unless they were taught well. <br><br>Biggest drawbacks I've seen with scouts and their knives are 1) Cheap junk knives that someone bought for them 2) Dull because they do not have anything personally or at home to sharpen them with. I think we should take a lot more direct control over the initial knife choices the boys "make" AND ensure they get an appropriate sharpening device at the same time. I vote for a small diamond sharpener - lots of good ones to choose from. (Hate lugging stones and oil out to campouts). Wet-or-dry sandpaper glued to a small piece of flat 6061 T-6 aluminium scrap would be quite servicable, too - and those are cheap to make if you visit a local metals recycler for the aluminum.<br><br>Be Prepared!<br><br>Tom<br><br>

Shameless plug here Bill- Ragnar @ www.ragweedforge.com has a few sheath knives of moderate cost and decent quality AND they are the issue scouting knives for the boys in Norway and Sweden.That will give a tie in with tradition. Spending a lot of $ on a first knife ( It's still green colored right, been a while,) hazards A. loss and B. the individual preferences as knowledge is gained.