From the "Warming Up My Tent" thread.

The test material is a relatively heavy nylon - similar to that used to make a backpack or tent bottom. I'm going to try to find an actual tent to burn, but for now I think this video makes a point of why you never want open flame in a tent.

Note: The noise in the background is the annual Cicadas, which come out this time of year and "sing" in the very hot weather. On the small video, due to heavy audio compression, the sound is fairly "odd" as a result.

Large Video - (About 9MB Suitable for Office, Cable Modem and DSL users)
www.focazio.com/equipped/videos/NylonTest-Large.mov

Small Video - (About 1.4MB for dialup users)
www.focazio.com/equipped/videos/NylonTest-small.mov

Note that you'll need the free "Quicktime" program to view these movies. You may get Quicktime for Windows or Mac at www.apple.com/quicktime

Wow. And that's with just one spot lit. Imagine if you knocked over a stove...

Martin,

Very interesting - thanks. Following comments are to the topic of heat in tents, not a reply to your post:

I have seen more than my fair share of tent fires (canvas) in the far North, some of which involved fatalities(s). But all things considered, less tent fires than I would expect under the circumstances.

I do not disagree with a general sentiment that generally says that most of us will never NEED to have a fuel burning appliance inside a tent. Having written that, there ARE circumstances and locations where cooking and/or heating has to happen inside a tent. Unless, of course, we all move to the tropics and never vacation in the high mountains or far North (or far South, globally speaking).

So... now that we've all thrashed the "No Flames in Tents" concept pretty well, maybe it's time for some discussion of when it is appropriate and how to minimize the risks. It doesn't have to be -40 deg with horizonatal blowing snow situations - there can be life-threatening situations in much milder conditions where heat in a tent is appropriate.

<shrug> Or I can keep biting my tongue, I guess. "No Flames in Tents" probably applies all the time to 90% of us here anyway.

Regards,

Tom

I agree with your thinking. I recommended Sterno (gelled alcohol) for a tent heater on the other thread because it is far safer than petroleum products. It burns cleaner, extinguishes easier, and obviously doesn't spill/splash as easily. It has the drawback of not cooking as well as liquid fuels, including liquid alcohol, but as a tent or food warmer it's hard to beat.

I personally would do without a heater in a tent unless facing hypothermia.

Regards, Vince

Aren't we trying to solve the wrong problem? I wouldn't need to have a heater in my tent if the tent were better insulated, or I was. I didn't want mention this, since the original thread said this wasn't a possible solution, but really.... just insulate the darn tent, or buy a better sleeping bag. Or both.

Right? What am I missing?

>> Right? What am I missing? <<

Groo,

You were kidding, right? Let's see... you live in Florida, right? <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

(An insulated tent is not backpackable - bulk and weight. The few that I know of are designed to be heated and cooled.)

Here's a classic: There are situations where one simply must run a stove inside a tent in order to make water. Once it's water, we COULD maybe stay outside in the deep dark howling wind ice crystals cutting exposed skin conditions and use up our fuel trying to heat it - or maybe not. These days, fewer and fewer climbers use liquid fuel stoves and all hacks and tricks aside, the fuel cannister has to be kept around freezing or warmer AND have heat input because it is cooling itself from gas expansion (like an AC evaporator).

Infinite number of other reasons/situations, the vast majority of which deal with very cold temps and/or cold temps and winds.

As far as heat for comfort reasons, you are basically correct - there are far fewer situations where it really makes objective sense to burn fuel in a tent simply for warming it up. Especially not small volume backpacking tents as opposed to large (usually canvas) tents that are designed to have a wood burning stove in them.

Ahem - unless we are talking about dire survival situations - when we can least afford to have a mishap.

Surely others here besides me have experiences to chime in with...? You don't have to be above the treeline or in the far North to encounter situations where running a stove for heat inside a tent is the lesser of two evils.

To be objective: Short of some huge catastrophe, even where I live, one is very unlikely to ever get into that sort of a situation - some sort of rescue / refuge is usually going to be close enough. My experiences come from the time I've spent and spend in more remote areas.

Regards,

Tom

Look, I know it's theoretically possible for water to go into a solid phase, but AFAIK, it's never been observed outside a laboratory. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Cold is 60F. They start warning people to cover plants and bring pets inside at 40F. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What's that old saw about a picture being worth a thousand words? Thanks for the visual, Marty. If that doesn't convince a body to stay away from tents with open flames, I don't know what will (the dripping flames were caught real well, nice camera work <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />).

Troy

You know, we are not that far off from having a suitable, portable "fuel cell" that works much like a catalytic element. In fact, what's so wrong with catalytics? Maybe we just need to find a reasonable way to isolate and protect the heat source so that the chance of it igniting an external flammable are next to nothing.

I've been so cold in my wall tent (read big canvas tent) that I've had to light off all three propane burners on my BIG cookstove, plus a hot fire in my woodstove. That's 12' x 17' in a good blizzard. Eventually it got warm enough in there that I could get outta my FWG and do some cooking. Ah, now that was living. I believe that was the night I made beef stroganoff and fresh scratch sourdough fritter rolls and triple berry compote topped with yogurt... Oh God, I miss elk camp.

If you can keep the airflow down, you'd be surprised I think at how much heat you can get out of one candle in a jar. The trick is to trap the air. Not an easy proposition in these new fangled tents.

Is there any risk from carbon monoxide or other fumes in a tent, or does it all leak out before it builds up?

In theory, yes, of course (CO). In practice, I am not personally aware of any deaths from that, but the continuing use of heavily coated "tents" by the US military is certainly going to create "opportunities" for people to gas themselves to death - I see those are turning up on the surplus market, so some elk hunter somewhere is going to fall asleep in one of those on a cold night with a couple of burners running... it's inevitable. But it seems unlikely in a backpacking tent or traditional canvas wall tent. In those, fire is the big danger.

IMHO, the biggest "fume" danger is from fuel vapors, like from a white gasoline stove, and ignition of those have for CERTAIN caused nylon backpacker tents and contents to burn nearly instantly. Having said that... most of my personal in-tent stove use has been with white gas backpacking stoves. Gotta follow good rules... tents used to come with a "stove hole" in the floor (I still have one or two in the camping gear room). Usually a zippered semi-circle. They disappeared with the vast rise in tort cases, on which I have no comment, other than to say again that life has risks and I would not care to live in a riskless world.

IMHO it is best to get tell-show-do instruction on using a stove in a tent - from an experienced, safe, competent person. Or skip the idea. If I base camp with one of our really big "packable" tents (barely - need to use a cart), I will continue to use a propane cat heater in really cold weather. Only when awake, etc. Super cold conditions will never see me in those big tents.

On a really long trip without re-supply, I will probably continue to use a white gasoline fueled stove. On anything up to 5-7 days, I have pretty much converted to a cannister-type stove, only taking white gas on weekend trips when I want to refresh my familiarity with a particular stove. For the next 3-4 years it is very unlikely that I will be in a situation requiring me to cook in the tent. After that <shrug> I intend on doing some serious trekking again, so who knows?

Actually, that nylon didn't burn as fast as I thought it would. A test using the thinner tent material would be interesting. I think we have some firemen in this forum. I'd like to hear their comments on how an enclosed tent would be different from the vertically hanging fabric. Would there be a 'flame-over' in the top of the tent because of super-heated gas in a closed space?

<img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Ha ha ha ha... ROTFL...

I just imagined watching some bozo at a campground pumping his white gas stove (aka coleman) like mad with the cap not on all the way, then when he goes to light it off, from outside you see the big blue flash, and then he is sitting there with the Wiley Coyote singed look and nothing but tent poles around him. Ha ha ha ha....BMG <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

That reminds me of a warning about using carbide as a makeshift light source. One time my buddy decided he would build a little glow light for the camp and grabbed a 2 gallon milk jug, tossed in a handful of carbide and some water, poked a hole in the cap and lit the escaping acetylene. So we're all standing around checking out the scene, and suddenly this big whump comes from my friend's hand, where he is holding the milkjug. He is afraid to look because he doesn't know if he even has a hand anymore (couldn't feel it on the end of his arm for a while, it turned out). No damage done fortunately, but we had to wait for minutes for our eyes to adjust back from the big flash of the milk jug. Apparently the back pressure in the jug was more than the little caphole could handle, and it either anurismed the jug and the flame caught the escaping gases just right, or it reached critical pressure (I think about 32 psi maybe) and detonated.

Either way, it made for a good laugh. We still talk about it around the campfires. I especially remember the look on my buddy's face as I turned on the flashlight and shined it on him, then slowly moved the light towards the end of his arm....

ROTFLA ha ha ha ha ha......BMGA <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

In fact I AM a fireman. Lighter nylon would go faster - much faster and the enclosed space would heat up fast too.

I'm trying to find a retired tent to burn for another video.

I’m anxious to see you burn up a real tent. I almost set fire to my 4 season expedition tent a few years back. My bud had his knife in his hand ready to cut through the fabric to get out. But I managed to get things under control without any damage.

It is just not realistic to consider not using a stove or lantern in cold/extreme cold situations inside your tent. You just have to be very careful and move slowly. Always allow ventilation to prevent CO poisoning. Never let a stove burn when you are asleep, I do keep the lantern on a min. setting as it is suspended from the ceiling and cannot be knocked down.

Even with the best gear, waking up at 10°F or below and getting dressed without heating the tent is a rather painful thing to do. Cooking outdoors is not an option. You risk freezing extremities or burning your gloves/mitts. Too much fuel would be wasted in the exposed conditions, etc

And hey, accidents do happen, so keep a blade handy for a quick exit through the fabric wall. Don’t take the time to exit your sleeping bag either, cut & roll out ASAP if something is on fire. I’m sure those nylon tents will go in a few seconds.

White gas (Coleman fuel) is still the best option for cold weather & altitude. Do refuel outdoors !!!