Recently I`ve been looking at Ontario Rat-7 and the RTAK the Rat-7 comes in either 1095 or D2 and the RTAK only 1095.

As far as steel goes how do those rate for durability? The knife is large and if used regularly to chop, clear, cut will it hold and edge and NOT break/crack/shatter ?

What are GOOD steels to have in knives?

I`ve found http://www.admiralsteel.com/products/blades.html but it doesn't specify qualities of each type?

Thanks!
-Todd

The choice of steels is a religious question for many. In fact, I think some people take it more seriously than their religions... <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

You should check the Steel FAQ at BladeForums.com, which has plenty of info.

The bottom line is that steel is complicated. Some steels may hold an edge but be too brittle. They may also be difficult to sharpen, e.g., S30V. On the other hand, some steels may be softer, meaning they are less likely to chip, but they won't hold an edge as well. On the plus side, they may be easier to sharpen.

Whether you get D2 or 1095, be sure to dry them off after every use, particularly the 1095, because they can rust. Also, heat treating can make more of a difference than the choice of steel itself, and you have to rely on the manufacturer to check for quality.

Bottom line is that you probably can't go wrong with either, but it really depends what you're after.

Thanks!

And for those interested that don't want to read...

The 10-series -- 1095 (and 1084, 1070, 1060, 1050, etc.)
Many of the 10-series steels for cutlery, though 1095 is the most popular for knives. When you go in order from 1095-1050, you generally go from more carbon to less, from better edge holding to less edge holding, and tough to tougher to toughest. As such, you'll see 1060 and 1050, used often for swords. For knives, 1095 is sort of the "standard" carbon steel, not too expensive and performs well. It is reasonably tough and holds an edge very well. It rusts easily. This is a simple steel, which contains only two alloying elements: @.95% carbon and .4% manganese. The various kabars are usually 1095 with a black coating.

D-2
D-2 is sometimes called a "semi-stainless". It has a fairly high chrome content (12%), but not high enough to classify it as stainless. It is more stain resistant than the carbon steels mentioned above, however. It has excellent edge holding, but may be a little less tough than some of the steels mentioned above. And it does not take a beautiful finish. Bob Dozier uses D-2.

Fitz basically covered it.

What will say is that I've owned a bunch of knives over the years. Most of the live in my drawer, largely forgotten. The knives I put on my belt when I'm going off the pavement are one of my Ka-bars. 1095 might be a "standard" steel, but so long as you don't have saltwater around, it is hard to beat. I've never had that much of a problem with rust (read that as no problem), but even when I get wet, it is freshwater, with the exception of acid rain. .

D2 CAN beat it, for many times the cost. If you can spend the extra, do it. It is a great steel. But if you want a couple of identical blades, say one in the BOB, one in the car, one the earthquake/hurricane bag, then grab a couple of 1095s for one knife of the same design in D2.

My .02 on this, just as food for thought, most everything TOPS produces is in 1095 and those knives are some cutting machines. I have seen them firsthand take a load of abuse and remain nearly razor sharp. I also acknowledge the remark made earlier in this thread that steel choice is like a religion. Hope you find a winner.

Yeah, I think the cost is the big factor here. You can get a good 1095 knife like the Swedish Mora for $10, which is one heck of a knife for the money. A good D2 (like a Bob Dozier) will easily set you back $100+. If you can afford the difference, great. If not, don't have any regrets. If you take care of the 1095 steel and keep it dry, it'll last a long, long time. (Probably longer than you will <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Lets compair apples to apples....

I can get a Ka-bar for about 50 bucks. I can get the D2 version for about 200. Easy equation if you are getting started.

The rat-7 is ~$15 more for the D2 over the 1095....
And the ka-bar is $150 more for same knife made w/D2 ? Why's the HUGE price difference for the ka-bar and not the RAT-7?

I ordered a RTAK which came in 1095 ONLY... but if I get it and like it I may get the RAT-7 in the D2 just to compare and have both... We`ll see.

Uh, sorry, but carbon Moras are not 1095, thank god. They are a proprietary swedish steel called Kolstal, which Jimbo calls "Sweish Mystery Steel." Whatever it is, it works.

I have one 1095 knife, a K-Bar 'shorty'. It is the only knife I have ever encountered that I could not bring to a decent edge. It is as slightly sharpened truck spring. Actually, think I could make a better knife out of a truck spring.

For what it's worth, I believe S30V is the best steel produced today, with D2 a close second, and Fallkniven's VG10 equal to either of them, just different. Note that Benchmade makes all the Ritter Grips and Reeve the Sebenza out of S30V.

You sound so sure of yourself, I hate to disagree but... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Eriksson carbon steel blades (1095) are hardened to 60 on the Rockwell scale"

http://www.ragweedforge.com/SwedishKnifeCatalog.html

And I'm not so sure everyone else would say that S30V is the "best" steel produced today. At the very least, what about S90V? And S30V blades have been known to chip in ways that softer steels generally don't and they can be devilishly hard to sharpen. As I said above, this is a religious decision and everyone should experiment and find what works best for their particular needs.

Ragnar is The Man, when it comes to Moras, I agree. But in this instance, I think Ragnar overgeneralizes in his literature for the sake of bringing his product descriptions into some terminology American will recognize. I posted to him a few minutes ago, and we'll see what he has to say. He is often slow answering his e-mail.

In the meantime, see the following. The first is a competing domsestic vendor. The second is a Swedish sources, and the third is the manufacturer of Kolstal steel.

http://www.buckshotscamp.com/Mora-Knives-Sales.htm

http://www.kolstal.pl/index2.html

http://www.gen-smide.se/kolstal.html

As for S30V, I find it easy to sharpen on diamond surfaces, ceramics, or other industrial abrasives. Sure, it's tough; the reason the knives are more expensive is not just because of materials cost, it is also because it wears out tooling quicker. The same is true of D2 and any of a variety of newer 'supersteels.'

I don't have enough experience with S90V to comment. To my knowledge, the only blade I have made of it is only 1 1/2".

Now, what I am really curious about is where titanium blade metalurgy is going. I freely admit it is a knife geek sort of thing. I still hate 1090 and 1095.

I wouldn't consider S90V a "current" knife steel since noone is mass producing knives with it yet. IMHO, S30V and the Falkniven 420 Laminated VG10 are the best things out there for survival purposes. If you're on a budget 154CM/ATS-34 is a real good compromise. If you need to go even cheaper, some mfrs like Benchmade actually do a respectable job with 440C but I would be careful about who you get your 440C from or you may find holds a worthless edge, dulls, folds, etc. There are lots of great carbon steels available also but I wouldn't recommend a non stainless steel for survival, but that's just me (IIRC Doug says something similar in his article on sharps). I believe in keeping survival gear as low maintenance as possible. Uncoated D2 will rust up pretty quickly too. Even Moras come in SS and Laminated versions.

Your opinions and eperience mirror mine exactly, except that I have had no corrosion problems with D2.

That little S90V blade is not ezactly a knife, more like a tool. I fear it is very brittle. Absolutely no flex to it.

There are some very respectable makers still working in 440C, like Tom Mayo. It's gotten a bad rap, but I'd be really careful what/who/where its from.

It'll be interesting to see what you hear back from Ragnar. Please post it here. (I'm not sure what your links were for, as they don't seem to resolve the issue.)

I'm very interested in Titanium too, but until they come out of the astronomical price range, let's just say I'd be in big trouble if I bought one....

Ok, I just can't resist. You know, Cody Lundin carries a carbon steel Mora knife. In fact, you can buy one right from his website. (But maybe he doesn't count cause he lives in a desert?) <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I agree with some of what you say, disagree with the rest. Personally, D2 is the best compromise of current steels for my tastes. And of course, far more able woodsmen than me have sworn by less expensive carbon steels for years.

Well, I haven't heard from Ragnar, yet, but I did hear back from another Mora dealer, Abe Elias: http://home.cogeco.ca/~aelias/

Here is the full text of our exchange:

Hi Randall

Well the truth of the matter is I have called Sweden a number of times direct and talked to them direct and at the time they were not willing to let out the actual steel they use. So I don't know how people are coming up with the names of the steel they are using when they are not telling or did not tell. I have seen listings for the stainless and carbons I don't know how these people are getting the information. Sometimes I wonder if the information that is being spread is made up or a guess but anyone claiming to know should provide how they found out. I even have a dealers catalogue and it is not mentioned in there catalogue or site.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help

Abe
----- Original Message -----
From: Randall Jackson
To: 'Canranger'
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 8:18 AM
Subject: RE: Knives, what else.

Abe:
A friendly dispute has arisen regarding Mora blade composition. I have a post to Ragnar, but his is often slow getting back.

The questions are: (1) are Moras made of 1095, or the Swedish steel Kolstal? (2) What is the difference?

Randall C. Jackson

*************************************
As for the significance of the links, the second is a link to the web page of Göran Enocksson, a blade maker. Back up to www.gen-smide.se to see the whole thing. My scandinvavian language skills are not as good as my German, but the thrust of it is that they make jakt (hunting) knives of Kolstal, fiske (fishing) knives of a steel called AEB-L, and hantverk (craft) knives of a stainless steel, SS2258 made by Kolstal. There is reference to another steel, Sleipner, which, like Kolstal, is the name of the manufacturer. I looked at the web sites of Kolstal and Sleipner, and they ain't tellin' what is in their steel.

I say poo on the hard steels. They don?t stay sharp that much longer and they are a pain in the butt to sharpen. Give me carbon steel or Buck 420 stainless steel. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

*blinks* What are you using to sharpen it? I've never seen a 1095 Ka-bar that didn't want to take an edge.

I use a diamond pocket rod to touch up in the field, and a stone Lansky (ok, I'm lazy) at home. If I have the time and inclination, I sometimes get out the big Arkansas stone and some oil, but that is only if they got used hard. I do have one that I sharpened with Japanese water stones when I did my sharp sword up, but hair spliting is a quirk in my inventory. I have one that I keep fairly dull for throwing, but the rest are all arm shaving sharp.

Becuase my wholesale buddy can't get D2 through his distributor?

I think I need to call him. If I can get a D2 Ka-bar for lhat kind of price difference, and he's been holding out.....

I agree it's weird. I started out like I would any new knife that didn't come sharp: big arkansas, same as you. Then, went to DMT plates.

I think it's a combination of two things: (1) the primary bevel on the shorty is soooooo short and steep that any secondary bevel is well over 25*, and (2) I think I just got a bad temper (the knife, not mine, thought after all the time I've put into the damn thing . . .). Hey, it happens.

I came to the latter conclusion after convexed the thing, which took forever because of the steep primary bevel. It's just a combination of bad geometry (fairly thick stock, fairly narrow blade, bad angle on the grind line) and a steel that has a corse grain structure. After convexing, the 'grind' is now almost back to the blood groove, and I may well have cut through the temper.

Yep, it does sound like you cut through the temper. The core of the Ka-bar is supposed to be softer, so the bounce back. I'd buy that theory, no doubt about it. I have one that is only used as a thrower- it's previous owner let the handle degredate tot he point it solid enough for nomral use, but blade is good after thousands of throws. I do know that a real Ka-bar will survive things that will kill a Camillus clone.

None of mine are shorties, though. It might be something odd to them, or to your lot. I know every manufacturer has funny lots every so often. I remember when Gerber had more funny lots than good ones. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure what you mean by convexing. I sharpen them like I was taught to sharpen, and it works fine, but that term wasn't one applied. I might be doing it and not be aware.

Pick up a shorty - don'y buy - and take a good look at the geometry. I should have known better. They just had to crowd the wide blood groove of the original knife onto the down-sized blade. Messed it up, because they could not bring the primary bevel up high enough without going to thinner steel.

Okay, since you asked, here's my two dinar (Iraqi currency, 1,450 dinar to the dollar, so mine's worth even less???)

The RTAK and RAT 7 are very desirable survival tools. In fact, the RAT 7 is the preferred accouterment of most GIs currently in theater, if they can get their hands on them. D2 appears to be the most requested blade. They use these knives for things such as punching holes in car door and hoods, chopping foliage, cutting razor wire, etc. They are taking these knives over the traditional K-Bar combat knife, so you do the math...

As for me, I've always liked Carbon V from Cold Steel, not to mention their blade construction is, IMHO, superior in many ways. I have two SRKs here with me, and I can tell you that the Cold Steel SRKs sell out quicker at the local PX than do all the rest of the knives combined (RAT 7s are not stocked at the PX, more's the pity) <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I am a little surprised that no one else on this thread even makes mention of Carbon V or Cold Steel. At $50 a piece, these SRKs are quite nice little gems, and come sharpened enough to take the hair off my arm. That may not be much for braggin' rights these days, but my K-Bars surely did not come out of the package like that!!!

Consider this, for a few hundred years, menfolk in the New world traveled around with what amounts to a butcher knife as their primary, if not their only blade. Imagine packing a knife around like "Old Hickory", which can be had for about $8 at several discount department stores. Buy a decent sharpening stone, and your about 95% or more equipped to same caliber as some techno survivalist who has his $200+ blade. If it worked for 5 generations before, it didn't suddenly just become obsolete, and them old mountain men relied on their blades a heckuva lot more than any of us will. If you are gonna go chopping trees and such, better bring an axe or a saw and use the right tool for the job. In a survival situation, I'd rather know how to make a primitive edged weapon and carry that $8 hickory handled carbon steel butcher knife than to have a $200 stainless wonder that I am afraid to touch a bone with for fear I might chip the blade. Being able to make the most use of a basic, common tool beats not knowing the right way to use that expensive and pretty little "precious". Grandad used the sharpened edge of a shovel to do most of his garden trimming with. Once in a while he'd put the stone to the edge again and then go about taking care of business. If it cuts, who cares? I'm not gonna find another knife that does better than my SRKs for their size, no matter how much moolah I spend, or how exotic the metal gets. There are probably a whole lot of knives that were way less than the $50 I spent that can do just about as good for what I need that I'd never know the difference. I have yet to come across any blade I can't put an edge to with a cheap $4 stone.

Ben: You are absolutely corect that we have become overly enamored with fancy knives, and I am one the worst culprits. I love my steel. However, in the interest of coming clean, I offer the one knife that I use every day:

[img][IMG]http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/344/p72900013bz.th.jpg[/IMG][/img]

It cam to me from my grandfather. He was born in 1898, and my grandmother said that he had had it as long as she could remember. He used only a very fine steel on it, which I also have, so it has not been too terribly worn down.

Bingo!!!

Just the sort of thing I was talking about.

Except for the Leatherman and the two SRKs, any other knife I own was given to me or was inexpensive. I won't buy expensive knives; the Leatherman is what it is, and the SRKS are also daily tools, and they were the most frugal purchases I could make for what I needed. I can't use a cheap Leatherman substitute for daily use cuz I've had too many knockoffs break in my hand while I am trying to crimp something. The SRKs are actually less expensive than the K-Bar equivalent, and in my mind more ergonomic and durable. Otherwise, I have little more use for an expensive knife over a less expensive equivalent.

Your grandad's blade sure has some history. I wonder what it looked like new?

Ben, I don't know how old it is -- at least 85 years old. I figure it probably looked about like current 'Old Hickory' products do now, except with a little better surface finiish. The steel is better than we can get now, because evenn with us using only a very fine buther's steel on it, I don't see how it could have survived.

Here is the Chef's knife he used for at least 50 years, and which I also use every day:
[img]http://[IMG]http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/4182/p72900071zr.th.jpg[/IMG][/img]

But, on the other end of the spectrum is this:
image]http://[/image]
which was made for me in 1972 by Bo Randall himself at the behest of my uncle, who caught me drawing knife desings. It is 6" x 1/4" ofhis temper of A2. Yes, the false edge is not false; it cuts betteron the back than most hatchets. It cuts better on the front better than anything else I have ever held. Yes, it is insured. But I can't repalce it.

See, there's some character. Now I can appreciate the custom knife, too, just like I do that nickel plated Ivar Johnson 357 that Grandad had for years and said was mine when I got older (oh yeah, I forgot, Grandma gave it to the police to destroy after he died, doggone it).

There are collector's items, and things that we just have to have no matter what the cost. I reckon I'm just as guilty as the next person for dropping coin on something I coulda got by spending a whole lot less on, just cuz I wanted to have it. Heck, I am about to dump a pile on a new Dodge pickup, just so I can say I have one, when that old beat up 77 Burb just got a new engine and does everything I needed a utility rig for.

Pride will make good men broke everytime.

Benjammin,

Cold Steel with Carbon V is good! I have the Master Hunter in Carbon V. I plan to buy an SRK when Cold Steel comes to a Phoenix gun show in December. An even better knife for even less money is the KJ Eriksson Mora knife. I like the #510. It is carbon steel, easy to sharpen, and works better on wood than anything else I have tried. Costs $9.00.

Ragnar's Ragweed Forge

Ben: We may bore the hell out of everybody else, but you & me got this thread while you got screen time, so what the hell.

I know what you mean. I'm driving a '92 Range Rover I bought new for a ridiculous amount of money, but it does not seem so ridiculous now, 14 years later come September. It has done more for me than I could possibly have expected. Keep the 'burb running, if it's a good 'un.

Re: Carbon V: Some say it is just 1095. I don't think so. I am fond of SRKs myself; i've had two, which I have given away to folks in circumstance which demanded them more than mine - they are over there with you. Good blades. Too thick for civilization, but that's the point, right?

PM me your APO parcel data, please, with any peculiar restrictions your CO/unit has.

RJ

Yep, gotta love them $9.00 deals! <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

My folding K-Bar cost me about the same. Good knife, used it to dress a deer out last fall.

If I needed anymore knives, I would likely buy one of them Moras. Heck, I may go ahead and get one when I get home anyways. I was eyeballing them pretty hard on SMKW before I left to come here.

In contrast, I will happily spend $1,300 on a new Browning A-bolt stainless with Leupold Vari-X II scope on top without even shopping around, and I don't consider that a collector's item, but a utility purchase. Something to be said about finding the right combination that works for you, and then sticking to it I guess.

Next time I kill one of them fat pig deer, I need to bring one of those fancy cheese knives so I don't have to stop every couple minutes and strip the tallow off the blade, geez!!!

Roger that.

Hi Benjammin:
I agree with you on Cold Steel SRK, it's a fine knife, but a lot of knife snobs badmouth Cold Steel, especially on bladeforums.com and some of the other knife forums too. I don't know what their problem is -- CS turns out some fine products at a decent price. By the way, I have a RAT-3 on order, although that might be a bit small for military use, but for me, it's the right size.

And thank you for being over there.
Rick

7k7: cold Steel by repute has treated a lot of people badly. They are, along with Maxpedition and a few others, in disrepute for personal or alleged business reasons, not for their product. It has nothing to do with us lowly people who spend money. Right.

My experience with both has been great.

We will all depend upon you to tell us if the RAT-3 is as good as it looks.

I think I'll be sticking with no-slip handles and finger guards. Im going to be passing on the smooth finish (slippery when wet) wooden handle knives with no guard. Those old knives are just as useful as they have always ben, that is true, but we've come a long way since then so there is no point in not taking advantage of what we've learned in the past 100 years. Flint knives works well in their time and the same could be said of bronze but I dont see anyone EDCing either of those. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If you want a cheap, safe, effective knives, either of these below are the best bet IMHO.

For those that preferr carbon steel...


For those that prefer stainless steel...


I tend to prefer stainless steel for survival purposes because it's low maintenance but I am currently carrying the carbon steel version because I like the red handle and I am testing it (long term) to see if maybe my opinion of stainless steel for survival purposes is unfounded. I have one of these beauties which I am rotating with the carbon steel mora shown above and will probably continue to do until I have exposed the Mora to a lot of sweat, blood and a variety of vegetation, so I can see how it holds up.

Now that makes some sense. Practical, inexpensive, functionally as good or better than what came before. All for about the same price as that "Old Hickory" blade.

That is innovation, not just an increase in technology. This I like. Improving on an already good idea without really raising the stakes. The essence of the best of our intellect.

thank you for clearing this up -- didn't mean to impune a lot of knife owners, I'm not that familiar with their business practices, nice to know about Maxpedition -- they apparently put out some quality stuff too, but it seems their products are always out of stock, they must not have a very good distribution set-up or something. Will post a review of the Rat-3 after I spend some time with it.