EGNOS is what we call WAAS over here. Its full name is the "European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service", and it is differential GPS which uses the same protocols as WAAS and is compatible with it.

My unit is a Garmin GPSMap 60. I expect any unit will lose signal in woods. I see GPS as nice to have but not something I'd trust my life to. It's also jolly expensive, at least if you want one that includes maps.

I hike, camp, hunt and fish in in thick woods, grasslands and desserts. I live in a suburban community and work in an urban area. I am not a pilot and I am not trekking through Alaska or Antarctica. That is important to know because what I say below is my opinion as it relates to people in similar situations rather than people flying float planes over northern Canada or something similar. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well lets see here. My survival weapon of choice is a rabbit stick... now that that one is out of the way... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What size kits are we talking about here. The amount of navigational gear alone to which you refer is more than I would ever consider carrying with me. I own a GPS and several compasses but you won't find most of that stuff in my PSK.

Now, as far as navigation equipment goes, I see your point but lets not go overboard. Let me preface this by saying that I carry no 98 cent compasses. I carry an SAS ($30) in my micro kit, a True Nord ($20) in my PSK, and Suunto M-3 ($30) in my bag kit (which I do NOT carry with me in the woods). BTW I keep a small AAA AM/FM radio and a variety of maps in my bag kit also. I also keep a GPS in whatever vehicle (car, boat, etc) I am in.

Now for PSKS... I believe that a PSK (which I DO carry with me in the woods) is a last ditch kit (not al all inclusive do it all kit) and a compass is not nearly as important as fire, water, first aid and signalling! All my compass needs to do
it point north reliably. That's it. Nothing else. This is not the compass I bring with my to navigate maps. This is the
backup, last ditch compass that finds north and keeps me from walking in circles when it's cloudy, or
storming or I'm under a heavy canopy of trees, all of which render GPS useless and make it impossible to
navigate by the stars. I cant find polaris on a cloudy night and the GPS isn't going to work either. Now having said that I also argue with my compasses and tend to not believe them at times and therefore I also carry two. I carry the only on my wrist that is built in to my watch and also the one in my kit.

Topo maps, GPSs and large super-accurate compasses all have their place but it isn't in my PSK because if my PSK is too big then it is left at home or in the car and then everything in it is useless including the firemaking, water purification and signalling equipment which is IMHO by far the most important survival gear I carry.

In a nutshell, you say a mini compass will do nothing but point to north, and I say that exactly all I need it to do because navigating by sun and stars only works when you can see them. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wow, Brian, did you just take me to the woodshed or not? I am still reeling from some of your comments. I guess you picture me as pulling a two wheeled trailer behind me to hold all my equipment. I was looking at your quotation at the bottom of your post and I thought maybe I should adopt a similar one, namely, "The more I carry, the less I need!". You know, no matter how much you carry it is never enough. If you have a painful splinter in your finger and don't have a sharp needle, that, at that moment, is the most important item you could have in your bag of tricks.

You left me so many targets to shoot at that I don't know where to start, however, it is apparent that nothing I say would change your mind so rather than offend you, I will just wish you good luck trekking thru the woods with your rabbit stick. Thanks for your thoughts. Always good to get diverse viewpoints. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Boone

LOL, oops. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I guess I did not phrase my opinions as eloquently as I could have. My intention was not a trip to the woodshed but rather more of a respectful disagreement. I guess I didn't do so well on the "respectful" part. Sorry. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Understanding the point that most EDC's can't afford the space a GPS takes, I personally see a GPS (and the knowledge to use it) as required gear if someone is going off the "familiar" path. A properly used GPS and compass can quickly resolve many, if not most, "lost" scenarios.

Thinking about the guy wandering around the lava field ... the root cause was that he coudn't find his way back to his vehicle, though clearly he was ill-equipped for an overnight stay (I'm thinking mostly water here) and didn't follow many safety rules. If he knew how to use a GPS and had created a waypoint for his vehicle and had used a compass to follow a bearing taken from the GPS, he would have been much much more likely to find his vehicle - though I can imagine it would have been very hard to spot his vehicle in the dark.

I once got terribly lost in downtown Taipai, Taiwan. It was late at night. I was suffering from jet lag. All the streets and signs looked the same to me. It was very frightening. I managed to find someone who spoke English and they helped me find my hotel.

Since that time I don't travel to an unfamiliar location without my GPS and a decent compass. I learned my lesson. Whether going to Palm Springs, Yellowstone, or the Nicolet forest in Wisconsin, I bring my GPS and compass and create a "home" waypoint knowing that I can at least always find my way back "home".

By the way, I find following a bearing in a city much tricker than in the country since you simply cannot walk a straight bearing - you can't walk through city blocks.

My preference is a relatively simple small GPS. My choice at this time would be the Garmin Geko 201, though I've had a Garmin GPS III+ for many years. All it has to do is store a number of waypoints, tell me where I am (in UTM coordinates), and provide a bearing and distance from where I currently am to a selected waypoint. Another feature that I find critical is the ability to connect to a PC so that I can download/upload waypoints stored on my PC using ExpertGPS software. I try to download key waypoints before leaving for a destination.

Also, I find trying to follow a bearing using a GPS only to be very frustrating. The only decent way to follow a GPS bearing is to use a good compass.

All that said, of course I also carry short-term survival gear to help me meet whatever immediate needs arrise. If the GPS and compass doesn't get me out of the situation quickly, the plan is to park it and wait for help to arrive while handing needs (health, water, shelter, signaling) as appropriate. Sometimes I bring more gear, sometimes less, depending on where I'm going.

Ken, you make some interesting points. I guess what GPS to buy is a matter of personal choice. I have gone thru about four starting with an Eagle and then Lowrance (both made by same folks in Tulsa). Currently I have the Lowrance iFinder Hunt with the optional MapCreate package of six CD's to download onto my computer. I can transfer data back and forth via the card reader and create personalized maps on an SD card which plugs into the GPS battery compartment. Older GPS units had a compass built in but it only worked when you were moving. Now, this new unit has a compass that works standing still but I am not really comfortable with it. I prefer my compass around my neck.

Let me make you aware of a couple of very interesting and useful sites on the internet:

web page and web page .

The terraserver has printable aerial photographs of a good portion of the US. They are zoomable as well as printable. You can print several and overlap them and using a good gluestick from WMT make a great aerial photograph of the area of interest. One rainy day here in West Kentucky I set out to find the area on Ruby Ridge, Idaho, where Randy Weaver and the feds had the infamous shootout. I think I found it give or take a few hundred yards. Not bad considering I didn't have any coordinates to work with. I learned that the site was 1620 miles from my location on a bearing of 310 degrees!!!!! Of course that is as the crow flies. If the crow had to drive, it would be considerably further. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The mapserver has zoomable topo maps of the US in color. What's great about this site is that after you find the area of interest, you can move your mouse pointer over the area and get rolling coordinates (including UTM) in the lower left area of the screen. It's like a rolling odometer sorta. For instance, you can find an area on a map that you would like to visit, put the pointer on it, read the coordinates and enter them in your GPS as a waypoint. These two sites are so great that I think I will start a seperate thread for the benefit of all GPS believers. Surprisingly, there are some on this board that just absolutely poo poo this fine little computer. That's what it is, just a hand held computer but ain't it great? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Boone

You know, someone makes a GPS with a built in Compass sensor that interacts with the GPS to give a good LOB, so when you are standing still, your GPS will still tell you which way you are facing. Maybe there are a few someone's that make them now.

The problem with the on-board-GPS electronic compasses is that:

1. At least from what I've read, they put a substantial load on the battery consumption. This is my biggest concern. I've not read good things about them. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

2. I often prefer to shut off the GPS while following a longer bearing in order to save batteries. With the GPS turned off - no compass. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

3. Last I knew, electronic compasses were not nearly as accurate as a good magnetic compass - maybe +/- 2 degrees at best. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

4. It is VERY awkward (impossible?) to use map/compass orienteering techniques with a GPS compass. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh yea, there are tons of great GPS's out there these days. I tend to have an irrational allegience to Garmin - not sure why.

I think that ExpertGPS is similar to Maptech, but it looks like Maptech is more feature rich but also more expensive. I mostly use ExpertGPS to store and generate waypoints.

For electronic maps I really like the National Geographic Topo! maps, though they are a bit pricey - they are the best I've found. While ExpertGPS provides access to topo maps, it doesn't work nearly as well as NG's Topo!

I carry a Garmin Rino (FRS/GMRS radio plus GPS) and I occasionally lose signal in the woods. But I've never had to move more than 20 feet to reacquire it so I don't consider that too much of a problem. The real PITB with a GPS is that you have to be moving to use it. That's why I carry a Tru-Nord and a Brunton map compass.

Regards, Vince