This post is strictly HELPFUL CRITICISM and nothing more. It is not intended to offend anyone. Only to get you to thinking about what you have versus what you need. I am referring particularly to the area of NAVIGATION.

In looking over the contents of various kits, there is an impressive array of items. I am concerned about the LACK of navigation equipment. For example, I have seen a $300 knife, a $100 light, various high end lighters for firemaking, etc. In this same kit is a .98 cent button pin on compass which is just one step above nothing. No maps. No GPS. If you have headed for the wilderness to stay a spell, this cheap compass is going to tell you which way is North and nothing else. You can find North by locating Polaris, or the North star which never moves from it's position in the Northern sky about 30 or 40 degrees up between the Big Dipper and Cassiopea. So, I am SUGGESTING the following items be considered to have a well rounded survival kit.

First, a good compass. I carry two because sometimes I argue with one. Around my neck I carry the military tritium compass. They abound on eBay and can be had for $50 to $70. The tritium is a true glow in the dark substance and and does not have to be "charged" with a strong light. It is estimated the tritium will last about ten years. The same compass without the tritium is considerably cheaper but just as good otherwise.

My second compass is a Silva Ranger Type 15 which is a folding compass used for map reading. With it you can determine true North from magnetic North. In the central part of the US, declination is not as important as it is the further East or West you move where it can be off by as much as 25 degrees on the East or West coast. It has numerous other features for map reading and is a must if you are going to do any serious navigating.

Second, a good quality GPS. Make sure it is UTM capable. I'm not sure the cheaper ones have this feature. I have a Lowrance iFinder Hunt ($299) and the optional MapCreate program which comes with six CD's that cover the entire country ($100 more). These CD's have all the topo maps for the nation and can be loaded on your PC or laptop and then extracted to an MMC or SD card with the included card reader. Select the area you are interested in, create a map and download it onto an MMC or SD card and insert the card into a slot under the batteries in the GPS. Couple of thoughts on the GPS. In the map datums selection area, select NAD-27 to be compatible with the 7 1/2 minute topo maps. The default datum on my GPS is WGS-84. Don't be intimidated by all this datum stuff. Just do it and don't spend a lot of time trying to figure out why you did it. The GPS book spells it out in detail. Finally, go to the menu and select "UTM" instead of "Longitude/Latitude".

Third, obtain a USGS topo map (called quadrangles) to cover the area you intend to visit. These maps are available from the USGS as well as a number of private stores. Be sure and get a 7 1/2 minute map, scale 1:24000 which means that one inch on the map equals 2000 feet. A mile on the map is just over 2 5/8 inches or 2.64 inches. The map covers just under 30,000 acres. It is 5.5 miles wide East to West and 8.5 miles North to South. Each quadrangle is named for the most prominent feature or town on that quad. If your intended destination is near the border of the map, you will have to order the adjacent map also. Names of adjacent maps are printed around the four borders as well as at the four corners. USGS furnishes free index maps by state so you can select the map you want. The maps cost $6 each plus $5 shipping. You can buy one or fifty and the shipping is still just $5. They come rolled in a tube. Some people treat the map with commercially available map preservatives.

Finally, go to web page and purchase the booklet "Using Your GPS With the UTM Map Coordinating System". It costs $6 and comes with the all important plastic UTM grid overlay for the topo map. With this little grid, you can find your PRECISE location on the map in less than a minute using the UTM coordinates furnished by your GPS. Note that all topo maps have the UTM hash marks all around the borders in blue. Some of the newer maps have the grids drawn on the map. You can draw the grids yourself using the blue tick marks on the map. I have found that drawing EVERY OTHER ONE both vertically and horizontally suffices and doesn't clutter the map so much. I would suggest using a straight edge and a very fine point lead pencil to draw a faint line. Sharpen the pencil frequently. Don't be alarmed when you finish if the UTM lines are not exactly parallel to the borders of the map. This is correct and the way it should be.

I know all this sounds terribly complicated but it is actually quite simple. Rather than try to educate yourself from the manuals, I would suggest you find someone who is GPS literate and who understands UTM. In less than five minutes, you can be proficient in using the UTM grid on the map. Conversely, you can find a location on the map you wish to travel to, place the UTM grid over it, record the UTM figures and transfer them to your GPS as a waypoint to be navigated to. In time, you will develop CONFIDENCE and will be able to enter the biggest wilderness knowing where you are, where you want to go, how far it is there and how to return to where you started from.

Couple of other items unrelated to the above that I thought I would touch on briefly. First, there has been much discussion about what weapon to carry. As one poster so aptly stated, depends what you want to shoot! Considering everything, my choice is a Ruger .22 automatic pistol, stainless, with bull or target barrel. They are deadly accurate, fairly inexpensive and will meet most of your needs. I would recommend CCI ammunition over all the rest.
(BTW, be advised, stainless WILL rust).

And finally, (I'm about done) an item of equipment that I rarely see listed is some sort of AM/FM radio. Imagine you are sitting around your camp wondering if the gas cloud is moving your way, are the aliens nearby, etc. A simple radio would be desirable to stay informed. I have a small FM receiver that runs on coin cells. The radio, ear buds and an extra battery all fit in a 35mm film canister and the radio is very sensitive and tunes automatically like a scanning radio in a vehicle. A small NOAA weather monitor would also come in very handy.

This is a long post but one I think should be considered if you are serious about entering the wilderness for an extended period. I have some thoughts about short range communication radios but I'll save that for another day.

I welcome all comments, corrections and comments. Some of you military guys out there that are proficient in map reading sign on with your thoughts, etc. That's what this forum is for. Discussion. I don't pretend to know it all. Just enough to get by.

Regards to all,

Joe <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great post !
I carry good compasses now. Silva and Brunton.
I do not have a GPS unit yet. I was confused and did not know what features to look for. You have provided great information.
Thanks.

I can't make up my mind if I'm disagreeing or not. I don't think so, but it might sound like it. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Scenario 1: I'm a pilot, it's VFR conditions, I'm far enough up when the engine quits to pick my spot. I note my position on the map. I land. Now I'm all turned around... I know where I'm at, but which way was the farm house? Where's north? Get out a cheap compass, find north, head for the farm house / road / etc. I don't need a GPS. Don't need a fancy compass. Just need North.

Scenario 2: I'm in a strange city. I have a street map. I just came out of the subway. Which way is North? Get out a cheap compass. Find North. Now I know which way to walk.

Etc.

Often, it's enough to know "where's North?". Sure, a GPS is awesome, and nice compass is great if you know how to use it, have maps for it and need to use it. But I think a lot of navigation problems reduce to "where's North?". That's why the cheap, no frills compasses are usually adequate.

I agree about the good compass --I have the military tritium model -- but a GPS for most people is very expensive and not needed for most survival situations as in a terrorist attack or tornado or hurricane or other natural disaster. [ for backpackers and wilderness people, I can see it, but not for most city dwellers IMO]. Plus it is vulnerable to EMP as are most modern electronics. And I do have an AM-FM small portable Grundig in my BOB.

Joe, good post. I carry a Silva Ranger as my primary compass and a button compas in a separate location as a back-up. Additionally,I carry a state highway map and USGS topo maps of my bug out area. Like you, I also carry a small AM/FM radio in my bug out bag. I don't have a GPS unit yet, but that is something I might add in the future. Two other items I always carry in my BOB (not usually mentioned here) are an American Red Cross first aid manual and the U.S. Army survival manual. George

I carry a Silva compass for my map reading companion, a small Marbles brass compass for quick "north" references, and a couple of small Brunton watchband style compasses tucked away in various kits.
I have two gps receivers, but don't routinely carry them unless geocaching.
The Magellan Meridian Gold has maps downloaded that go to street level, show water locations (streams, rivers, lakes), and it eats batteries like nobody's business. The eTrex has no fancy features, but will run 24 hours or so on lithium batteries.
Nice to have, but the compass will keep going after the batteries are long gone.
Map and compass will win out in a survival situation, IMHO.

I always think of Bugs Bunny with compass posts. Bugs pops out, blinks, consults his map and proclaims " I must have taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque!" Walking out of a survival situation is merely the organised panic of lost people. Button compass' are literaly just that, first created by the RAF to conceal in uniforms along with wire saws, silk maps and minute knives if downed over hostile territory. We don't have Wermacht soldiers sweeping farmhouses for us, so lets sit down and think. One degree error in a compass equals 92' per mile off point. That may make a difference calling in a artillary strike, but if I get lost in California I'm pretty certain of stumbling onto Los Angeles eventually. I may wind up at a convenience store in El Cerritos instead of Ma Maisons in Beverly Hills, but both have phone service and water. Well, Maisons will have a lemon slice in it and you need a tie. Certainly anyone going anywhere will have quality map and compass in a formal kit. In a PSK the button is appropriate. Everything is hopefully redundant with the comfort of backup systems and knowledge. Some people run around fondling tree moss and making miniature Stonehenges out of sticks. I suppose you could lift a squirrel's tail for another obscure direction indicator, but I'll keep my button. Better yet, I'll just stay put. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Can't argue with a word of it, but you left out one thing... practice, practice, PRACTICE.

Troy

I always carry topo maps, a compas (two, actually), and my GPS. That being said, I don't really consider these my "survival equipment". I do not carry a compass in my pocket Altoids tin kit. I have a cheap Silva in my pack-based survival supplies, and a better quality Brunton that I use for normal (as opposed to survival) navigation. (But I'm lazy and tend to use the GPS for normal navigation more!)

For survival navigation, I thought the answer was mostly "stay put". But I suppose if you need to move, then my goal would be to get somewhere civilized, anywhere civilized, as opposed to getting to a specific destination with 0.72% deviation from intended. Where I hike, I think I could probably find civilization with nothing more than the sun's position and memory of maps reviewed prior to the trip. Things like "down this valley is a highway", "over that ridge is a town", "go south, but be careful when you dash across I-70". I'm almost willing to bet that anywhere I could possibly place myself here in Colorado - even in the deepest wilderness designated area - I would probably hit civilization if I could hike in a straight line for 5 miles. Any direction would do. Maintaining a straight line would be much easier with a compass, but not so much easier that I'd feel the need to carry some high dollar model in my Altoids tin kit (impossible to do anyway).

I'm certainly not disagreeing with your suggestion to have navigation equipment available. But for a pocket survival kit, not much in the way of a high dollar compas is needed in my view. I don't have a $300 knife in my Altoids tin either ... just some Exacto blades.

Of course, all my thinking would change dramatically if I routinely hiked out in the unexplored Yukon after being dropped off all by myself by a float plane bush pilot!

Journeyman, all my long life I longed for a Grundig radio. I considered them the Rolls Royce of short wave radios. Well, I ordered one for thirty something dollars and the quality of it was something akin to what you might get in Cracker Jacks. I was out the return postage but I couldn't get rid of it quickly enough! Maybe if I had spent more for one of the high end models it would have had better quality but this one stunk! <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

maybe you just got a bad one, mine has been pretty nice for a small portable -- runs on three AAA's I think -- haven't checked the batteries recently

KyBooneFan,

Let me add my $0.02. I have to disagree.

I was in the Army and we used the military compass. It seems overkill for civilian use. I have a GPS and I use it when I am driving off road and hunting. The rest of the time it seems to be of little use.

I have taken my boys to several map and compass classes. We also have several books and a video on using map and compass. The base plate compass seems to be the compass universally taught. The Silva now Brunton 3DLU seems to be the most popular. You will see it used in demonstrations on how to use a compass. It is my favorite. For every day carry I am fond of the Suunto Comet. It has a declination scale and is easy to use. When I am in a mall or hiking I like to see which direction the car is.

I say: forget the military compass. Have a good base plate compass and a good pocket compass.

Craig, I can't disagree with you on the compass. I chose the military model primarily because of the night lite (although I haven't used it at night yet). Maybe I will have to purposely get lost at night to use it. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> As for the GPS it obviously has it's place. I have been in some pretty big woods (think Mark Twain National Forest in Missouri). Find yourself a LONG way from your vehicle on a dark, overcast day. You and I are together. You head for the vehicle with your compass and even your topo. I will head for the vehicle using my GPS. I will hit the vehicle dead on the first try. You will eventually get there after considerable meandering, backtracking, stumbling thru thickets, etc. Everything has it's place. Thanks for responding. Always good to get a different point of view.

Look at the bottom of your Grundig. Since reunification Germany is spelled China.

it probably is China -- but then again, what isn't stamped 'Made in China'? very few products are made in USA anymore, frankly I'm surprised when I don't see made in China on something I buy. even my Blackhawk gear was made in Vietnam, go figure!

I guess I'm not too bad then. I have in My PSK a tiny watchband compass and in my BOB in the truck a Silva with the Clear baseplate.
In the truck are a city map, county map and state map of the city/county/state I live in as well as maps of two states that I travel in regularly. I have a small AAA powered AM/Fm radio and spare batteries in my bob as well.
I;m still loking for a small battery powered radio that might pick up the NOAA signals or weatherbands, thinking of selling my old radio shack CB radio and buying one of those that pick up NOAA.
What are your thoughts on the Ruger 22/45, I've been looking at pictures of it, thinking the shorter barrel would be easier to fit in a BOB and since its considered a 'target" pistol it might be slightly less scary to the sheep, I can say I was at the range.

An interesting post.
I admit to carrying my GI issue lensetic compass, but mainly because I have it, not because I need it. My old, cheap basic Silva is a good enough compass when used w/ good topo maps, even in northern Ontario and Quebec.
I do appreciate the GPS system, but its easy to get sloppy navigating. Then I dropped my old, non-immersible Garmin 24 in the lake. Only 3 inches deep, but that was enough. Cost us a lost day and two pair of tough, unnecessary portages.
By the way, if you're buying US topo maps, get the new 1:25,000 issues. They already have the one thousand meter UTM grids on the map face. The Canadian maps have used the UTM grids for years.

Well, Eugene, you got me on the Ruger 22/45. I had never heard of it. A quick Google search came up with the following:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/2245_p512.htm

Looks like a quality pistol. I don't like a long target barrel for every day carry. I wonder if this gun comes in stainless. After reading the review on the mechanism, I believe for a survival situation, I would defer to the old, proven Ruger. Besides, I like the looks of the old one better. These new pistols, Glock, Sig, et al all have that cut up, squared off look that makes it look more like a tool than a handgun. A pistol should have some visual character as well as reliability. Can you imagine the old single action Colt .45 being retooled into this 21st century squared off piece of steel? There are some things that just can't be improved on. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Sony has a bunch of reasonably priced radios with all the weather bands and television 2-13, which I have found kind of handy when storms were coming in. $40.00, with 'phones, IIRC.

{I am a life long Ruger fan, but I was REAL disappointed in the .22/45. The trigger was awful, and I've had government models that were smoother if you dumped sand in them. I love my H-S Victor, or, better yet, a Smith 41, which I have not wanted to drill for glass - but I want a long barrel for it, so . . }

Jack, I'm not persuaded on the 1:25000 maps. If you are going to just use it with a compass, fine. But trying to adapt all the UTM grids, etc. to the new map would be akin to learning to speak Swahili (?). I learned to use the 7 1/2 minute, 1:24000 map and I'm too old to change but thanks for your input.

FWIW, I agree with u on the Grundig. They sell them here at Radioshack, Brookstone and the Discovery Channel Store. They do not seem to me to be very rugged.

I really am interested in of those Freeplay radios that you can get throug the C Crane Company. They resell several mdels that look nice. Does anyone know any stores that carry the Freeplay? I'd like to see one before I purchase. Also, i'm guessing the cost through cCrane is high, because they want 69.95 for the Eton FR300 (which I believe is the same as the Grundig that most places sell for $30 - $40 USD).

I did pick up a small hand crank radio (AM-FM-Weather) at Walgreens for about $12 IIRC. For that price I thought it was worth it, and it seems to work fine, though I'm sure its durability is questionable.

And as far as the original post, I do carry a comapss (Silva clear base I've had since cub scout days) and a Garmin ETrex Legend C in my vehicle BOB.

Michael

A 25,000 scale map just makes it more in line with the metric system, where 4 cm equals 1 kilometer (distance between UTM gridlines). Why do you think it is so hard to learn?

Well, I guess learning the new map wasn't exactly what I meant. I agree the metric system is far superior to what we all learned but I have a hard time adapting to it. Especially in the tool department. I was raised on a 9/16, not a 10mm so I have a bias toward metrics. In addition, I have a forty year collection of 1:24000 maps not to mention that my UTM grid overlay would not work on a 1:25000 I don't guess. Bottom line, I am just too old and stubborn to change in this instance. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

KyBooneFan,

I don’t disagree on using a GPS when you are hiking, backpacking, or hunting off trail. Like you, I set a waypoint on my car. Then I look at my compass and see what direction I am walking. I agree that you can get back to your car a lot faster with a GPS. I imagine it has saved a lot of people from being lost. I know I took a wrong turn in my SUV and had to use my GPS to figure out how to get back on the correct dirt road. I also keep my GPS on while deer hunting and treat it like life itself. When using a compass to get back to your car you have to set a bearing that you know will take you beyond your car so you will know what direction to walk, on the road, toward your car.

I meant to say that for any of the day hikes I have taken it has not been useful. On the other hand, when I hike in the Superstition Mountains again I will take my GPS. It is easy to get lost on the trails. My son got lost, in there, when he was hiking with the troop. He lost sight of the other scouts and took a wrong turn.

Ah yes! The Superstition Mountains! How lucky you are to live in that part of the country. In West Kentucky the difference between a ridge and a hollow is six inches. Have you managed to find the old Dutchman's gold? Ha.

Seriously, I believe that one reason some folks don't warm up to owning a GPS is that they are just technically challenged. I have a hunting buddy that just had to have one so his wife bought him one identical to mine at the time, a Lowrance GlobalNav212.
After he got it, I offered more than once to help him understand it as it was identical to mine. He kept putting it off and never asked for help. That was several years ago and to this day, we never mention it anymore. His wife fusses at me because he won't use it so I am between the rock and the hard place. BTW, he makes living as a professional electrician. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The stars, moon and Sun ain't worth a tinkers dam for navigation if you can't see them. Chance sez you are gonna get lost when it is overcast and/or you're in the middle of a forest and can't see the night sky. Even the best compass for survival work is a hand grenade accuracy, so finding north quickly (even magnetic north) and a couple landmarks and you can pretty much orienteer your way to safety.

The best navigation skills I could recommend to anyone is learn the law of sines. You can get yourself out of a lot of bad situations just by being able to triangulate your location. Of course, having a laminated piece of paper with the sine table on it beats having to memorize it. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Benjammin, I have read and re-read your post and I'm sorry to say I just don't follow your thinking. If it is dark in the big woods and you can't see the night sky, how are you going to find a "couple of landmarks" to triangulate? I must confess I never hard of the "law of sines" and after a brief tutorial:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/LawofSines.html

I don't think I would be any better off knowing it. While you are figuring out angles of a triangle and fussing with pencil and paper, I am going to the truck. My GPS with illuminated screen says my truck is 0.8 miles on a bearing of 285 degrees and there is a dotted line from where I am standing straight to the truck. I now consult my compass, find 285 degrees, pocket the GPS and strike out trying to generally stay on 285 degrees. Periodically, I will consult the GPS to see if I am generally on course and I will be waiting for you at the truck with a thermos of hot coffee. Essentially, what I have described is comparable to an airplane flying directly to a homing radio beacon. Now how can you argue with that?

Do I detect a bias against the Global Positioning System which after all, was designed for military navigation? I can't imagine navigating in the deserts of Iraq or anywhere else without it. A compass in that scenario would, at best, just tell you where North is. And with that knowledge in thousands of acres of sand and no landmarks, are you any better off? I think not. Unless of course there is a "sine" that says "Baghdad 397 kilometers". <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Well, it is only dark maybe half of the time (unless you are way north, in which case a compass may be problematic even then), but it can be overcast without breaks for days on end, at least where I am from. What I was talking about is if you don't have a compass, you have other limitations about orienteering. Eventually (I would hope anyways) you will get daylight enough to make out landmarks. When that happens, you can then use the compass to get some sort of relative idea where you are to where the landmarks are. I may not be able to measure feet or yards exactly, but more or less my pace is the same in the woods, or wherever. So I can tell how many paces I am away from something by taking a few quick bearings and doing the sine calcs using the angles. It is not a difficult or time consuming thing, and if you can't get to the GPS for some reason, or worse still it won't work, you can still come up with a good estimate of where you are and which way to go. Now this assumes you have id'd your landmarks relative to some previously known location, so that the information you develop using the law of sines has some use, otherwise the only thing you will find out is how much further you are lost from where you started being lost.

My chem teacher always counseled that, while technology makes our life more comfortable, it is also a trap. Being able to solve the problem using just your mental skills and a few rudimentary tools, well, isn't that the essence of survival?

Now, the nice thing about deserts is that you seldom have cloud cover continuously. In this case, a sextant and a compass would get you out of trouble, again using a few rudimentary tools and a little education, still without relying on much technology. In that respect, finding my way through the desert may be even easier than in the forests back home. Ah, there is a time and place for everything isn't there.

Now, if I go to the trouble of learning how to make good use of all that knowledge, guess what. Yep, the first thing I will reach for in my survival bag of goodies for navigation will always be my GPS, a brunton in this case, complete with built in maps. Ain't technology simply marvelous?

One of the first things I figured out as an electronics technician was how to build a crystal radio. Sure is nice not to have to rely on a power source. Really, I am not biased against GPS, I think it is a great new tool for us to enjoy, but it is not free, and it does rely on ideal conditions for operation, and it is not easily replicatible should the technology fail us. More than one time I've seen hunters and hikers slapping the side of their Magellan staring at an "acquiring signal" screen prompt walking down some path.

I mean, come on, there certainly was no GPS system 500 years ago, and definitely no landmarks out in the ocean, when people were really just starting to explore the world. We have to be at least a little more intelligent than that by now, don't we? One thing is to make use of new technologies, while still mastering the tried and true.

Why do you have a thermometer on your compass? What am I missing through not having one?

Don't GPS units often have difficulty aquiring the sats in heavily wooded areas?

reason I was looking at it is because it was available with a 4" barrel (shortest I could fine in rugers catalog) but the rest of the gun looks to be smaller than the other models as well. I was looking for small myself, and the P4 looks to be their smallest
http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdResults?function=famid&famid=4

I see what you mean Eugene. I never realized that the stainless was ninety dollars more than the blue. Judging from the negative feedback I have read on the trigger mechanism, I would give it some serious thought before I bought this model. At least, I would try to find a used one and take it out and test fire it. Good luck.

In a word..........no. I guess you would call this an urban legend stemming from the first GPS receivers that would only receive a maximum of five satellites. Now, AFAIK, all current units will receive twelve. There are around two dozen satellites circling the globe and at any given time there will be six to ten visible, albeit some of those are low on the horizon and are definitely hard to pick up in the timber. The screen shows all visible satellites and gives their location overhead so you can maneuver around a little for best reception. You only need three to get a good fix so if you lose one, you pick up another. Bottom line, acquiring and holding them is rarely a problem in the outdoors. I have a Holiday Rambler travel trailer with a rubber roof and aluminum "rafters" and it will acquire immediately when I am on the couch. It will also penetrate some wooden roofs.

This scenario is often mentioned by forum members to "justify" a small compass as EDC, even in a city.
I was always skeptical about that "necessity", in an urban context.
Until the other day, where I did just that : got out of a subway station, arrived at street level, gray sky, clouds, no sun. Where is North ?;...hum...that way ....
well, after 300m I found out I was heading in the wrong direction. No real damage. Just walked 600m more than necessary (good exercise anyway...)

So, guys, you are right : a small compass IS useful in a city !

I use GPS for geocaching so it sees some use in different areas. I have a Garmin 12 and a Garmin Etrex Venture. Those units have problems with foliage overhead. The effect is worse when the leaves are wet. It´s not always the older unit that has reception problems. An effect that is even worse is the calculation from reflected signals. The signal strength seems to be OK but the position is off quite a bit. Other geocachers observed this too.
On geocaching events at HAM field days the impact of the HAM activity on the signal strength can be observed sometimes.

Ever think of surveying your way to a geocache instead? Yep, it can be done, it takes considerably longer, but you can triangulate using a good compass to a fairly high degree of accuracy if you know what you are doing (a rangefinder is a pretty good cheat tool).

Actually Chris, my Grundig Mini World 100 PE doesn't state its country of origin at all-- inside or outside the case.. I don't know where it was made. And as a correction to my previous post, it is a 2AA battery model, not triple A's.

Similar happened to me too. on my first trip to Chicago. Took the train from O'Hare to downtown, came out under the street (kind of unusual for Chicago I believe) and exited up into a building IIRC. When I found my way to street level, had no idea which way was which. At the time I didn't even have a map because I just relied on an office colleague who said, "it's just two blocks east when you get off the train"

Didn't like the feeling of being in unfamiliar territory and knowing I was supposed to head east, but not knowing which way east was.

It was easy just to ask someone for directions and I was fine. But, I don't like not knowing, and needing to be reliant on others ..... especially if in a pinch ...... but I guess that's a big part of why we all ended up at ets.

Michael

I my area you don´t have a sufficient line of sight for proper triangulation in most cache spots. Taking bearings and guessing about intersection points from points where the reception is better is pretty much standard though. Learning about the limit s of the GPS is part of the game.

The EXACT same thing happened to me when traveling from the suburbs to Chicago. A complete sense of disorientation when emerging from the train station. I had a map, but even at the first intersection I wasn't sure which was was which (the map didn't make it clear where the station exits were), so I had to walk another block until I got a second "point" on the map from which I could figure out the direction I was traveling. Of course I was traveling south and had wanted to go north.

Great Idea?: ALL train stations should somehow put compass rosettes in the sidewalks just outside each set of exit doors.

Well... let's keep cool heads... It may not be a GREAT idea, but it's a good one, at least ! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Every exit in Paris subway, is supposed to have a map of the immediate surroundings, but some of these maps are quite difficult to locate in some stations...

Made me think about something I hadn't thought about in years -- spent summer at Stephen F. Austin Univ. in Nacogdoches, Texas when I was about 17. [It is in the deep piny woods of Texas]

Well, l was west Texas kid, and I had never before been anywhere that you cold not the horizon, and I had no idea which way was north except when I could see the stars. It made me real uncomfortable. I got a compass, and have had one ever since.

West Texas eh? Whereabouts? I was sprouted out in the feedlots and cottonfields north of Lubbock.

Baird. Callahan and Shackelford Counties, first counties east of Abilene, and the Railway Ranch outside of Monahans.

> There are around two dozen satellites circling the globe and at any given time there will be six to ten visible

It's often better than that, nowadays. If I'm reading this GPS status page correctly, there are currently 29 active satellites. I just went outside and had 11 GPS plus 1 EGNOS above the horizon, so all 12 of my receivers could get busy. I wouldn't be surprised to see more than 12 in the almanac data.

I still lose signal in the woods, though.

Simple. You just don't know what the temperature is. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Maybe they should post a map, to find the Map? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the update on satellites Dave. What is EGNOS? Is that another name for WAAS?
What brand of GPS do you have that causes trouble in the woods?
Boone

I have a Silva 15 Ranger, same one since 1977. Lost a previous one somewhere! I have a lot of experience with the military compass as well and do not particularly like them. I like the tritium and the 3 degree click bezel but hate the weight, way too heavy!
For my emergancy kit I carry an old Silva Huntsman. 5 degree marked but decent to navigate with.
I am curious why you would set a GPS to UTM? I prefer MGRS, which is what the military commonly calls UTM, although it is actually MGRS that the military uses. A note here is that if you ever call for a rescue by radio or cell phone, the best bet is to provide your position in lat/long since that is what most pilots navigate by. Mainly because they use smaller scale maps.
I seldom carry a GPS on hikes but I like having it in the car. A long hike and I may consider taking the GPS. I prefer to navigate the old fashion, non-battery dependant way. Cheers!

Hi Bill,

Good to hear from you. I am going to have to do some (reading) research before I can answer your questions.
MGRS sounds familiar but beyond that, I am going to have to read my GPS manual to answer your UTM inquiry. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Boone

EGNOS is what we call WAAS over here. Its full name is the "European Geostationary Navigation Overlay Service", and it is differential GPS which uses the same protocols as WAAS and is compatible with it.

My unit is a Garmin GPSMap 60. I expect any unit will lose signal in woods. I see GPS as nice to have but not something I'd trust my life to. It's also jolly expensive, at least if you want one that includes maps.

I hike, camp, hunt and fish in in thick woods, grasslands and desserts. I live in a suburban community and work in an urban area. I am not a pilot and I am not trekking through Alaska or Antarctica. That is important to know because what I say below is my opinion as it relates to people in similar situations rather than people flying float planes over northern Canada or something similar. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well lets see here. My survival weapon of choice is a rabbit stick... now that that one is out of the way... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What size kits are we talking about here. The amount of navigational gear alone to which you refer is more than I would ever consider carrying with me. I own a GPS and several compasses but you won't find most of that stuff in my PSK.

Now, as far as navigation equipment goes, I see your point but lets not go overboard. Let me preface this by saying that I carry no 98 cent compasses. I carry an SAS ($30) in my micro kit, a True Nord ($20) in my PSK, and Suunto M-3 ($30) in my bag kit (which I do NOT carry with me in the woods). BTW I keep a small AAA AM/FM radio and a variety of maps in my bag kit also. I also keep a GPS in whatever vehicle (car, boat, etc) I am in.

Now for PSKS... I believe that a PSK (which I DO carry with me in the woods) is a last ditch kit (not al all inclusive do it all kit) and a compass is not nearly as important as fire, water, first aid and signalling! All my compass needs to do
it point north reliably. That's it. Nothing else. This is not the compass I bring with my to navigate maps. This is the
backup, last ditch compass that finds north and keeps me from walking in circles when it's cloudy, or
storming or I'm under a heavy canopy of trees, all of which render GPS useless and make it impossible to
navigate by the stars. I cant find polaris on a cloudy night and the GPS isn't going to work either. Now having said that I also argue with my compasses and tend to not believe them at times and therefore I also carry two. I carry the only on my wrist that is built in to my watch and also the one in my kit.

Topo maps, GPSs and large super-accurate compasses all have their place but it isn't in my PSK because if my PSK is too big then it is left at home or in the car and then everything in it is useless including the firemaking, water purification and signalling equipment which is IMHO by far the most important survival gear I carry.

In a nutshell, you say a mini compass will do nothing but point to north, and I say that exactly all I need it to do because navigating by sun and stars only works when you can see them. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wow, Brian, did you just take me to the woodshed or not? I am still reeling from some of your comments. I guess you picture me as pulling a two wheeled trailer behind me to hold all my equipment. I was looking at your quotation at the bottom of your post and I thought maybe I should adopt a similar one, namely, "The more I carry, the less I need!". You know, no matter how much you carry it is never enough. If you have a painful splinter in your finger and don't have a sharp needle, that, at that moment, is the most important item you could have in your bag of tricks.

You left me so many targets to shoot at that I don't know where to start, however, it is apparent that nothing I say would change your mind so rather than offend you, I will just wish you good luck trekking thru the woods with your rabbit stick. Thanks for your thoughts. Always good to get diverse viewpoints. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Boone

LOL, oops. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I guess I did not phrase my opinions as eloquently as I could have. My intention was not a trip to the woodshed but rather more of a respectful disagreement. I guess I didn't do so well on the "respectful" part. Sorry. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Understanding the point that most EDC's can't afford the space a GPS takes, I personally see a GPS (and the knowledge to use it) as required gear if someone is going off the "familiar" path. A properly used GPS and compass can quickly resolve many, if not most, "lost" scenarios.

Thinking about the guy wandering around the lava field ... the root cause was that he coudn't find his way back to his vehicle, though clearly he was ill-equipped for an overnight stay (I'm thinking mostly water here) and didn't follow many safety rules. If he knew how to use a GPS and had created a waypoint for his vehicle and had used a compass to follow a bearing taken from the GPS, he would have been much much more likely to find his vehicle - though I can imagine it would have been very hard to spot his vehicle in the dark.

I once got terribly lost in downtown Taipai, Taiwan. It was late at night. I was suffering from jet lag. All the streets and signs looked the same to me. It was very frightening. I managed to find someone who spoke English and they helped me find my hotel.

Since that time I don't travel to an unfamiliar location without my GPS and a decent compass. I learned my lesson. Whether going to Palm Springs, Yellowstone, or the Nicolet forest in Wisconsin, I bring my GPS and compass and create a "home" waypoint knowing that I can at least always find my way back "home".

By the way, I find following a bearing in a city much tricker than in the country since you simply cannot walk a straight bearing - you can't walk through city blocks.

My preference is a relatively simple small GPS. My choice at this time would be the Garmin Geko 201, though I've had a Garmin GPS III+ for many years. All it has to do is store a number of waypoints, tell me where I am (in UTM coordinates), and provide a bearing and distance from where I currently am to a selected waypoint. Another feature that I find critical is the ability to connect to a PC so that I can download/upload waypoints stored on my PC using ExpertGPS software. I try to download key waypoints before leaving for a destination.

Also, I find trying to follow a bearing using a GPS only to be very frustrating. The only decent way to follow a GPS bearing is to use a good compass.

All that said, of course I also carry short-term survival gear to help me meet whatever immediate needs arrise. If the GPS and compass doesn't get me out of the situation quickly, the plan is to park it and wait for help to arrive while handing needs (health, water, shelter, signaling) as appropriate. Sometimes I bring more gear, sometimes less, depending on where I'm going.

Ken, you make some interesting points. I guess what GPS to buy is a matter of personal choice. I have gone thru about four starting with an Eagle and then Lowrance (both made by same folks in Tulsa). Currently I have the Lowrance iFinder Hunt with the optional MapCreate package of six CD's to download onto my computer. I can transfer data back and forth via the card reader and create personalized maps on an SD card which plugs into the GPS battery compartment. Older GPS units had a compass built in but it only worked when you were moving. Now, this new unit has a compass that works standing still but I am not really comfortable with it. I prefer my compass around my neck.

Let me make you aware of a couple of very interesting and useful sites on the internet:

web page and web page .

The terraserver has printable aerial photographs of a good portion of the US. They are zoomable as well as printable. You can print several and overlap them and using a good gluestick from WMT make a great aerial photograph of the area of interest. One rainy day here in West Kentucky I set out to find the area on Ruby Ridge, Idaho, where Randy Weaver and the feds had the infamous shootout. I think I found it give or take a few hundred yards. Not bad considering I didn't have any coordinates to work with. I learned that the site was 1620 miles from my location on a bearing of 310 degrees!!!!! Of course that is as the crow flies. If the crow had to drive, it would be considerably further. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The mapserver has zoomable topo maps of the US in color. What's great about this site is that after you find the area of interest, you can move your mouse pointer over the area and get rolling coordinates (including UTM) in the lower left area of the screen. It's like a rolling odometer sorta. For instance, you can find an area on a map that you would like to visit, put the pointer on it, read the coordinates and enter them in your GPS as a waypoint. These two sites are so great that I think I will start a seperate thread for the benefit of all GPS believers. Surprisingly, there are some on this board that just absolutely poo poo this fine little computer. That's what it is, just a hand held computer but ain't it great? <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Boone

You know, someone makes a GPS with a built in Compass sensor that interacts with the GPS to give a good LOB, so when you are standing still, your GPS will still tell you which way you are facing. Maybe there are a few someone's that make them now.

The problem with the on-board-GPS electronic compasses is that:

1. At least from what I've read, they put a substantial load on the battery consumption. This is my biggest concern. I've not read good things about them. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

2. I often prefer to shut off the GPS while following a longer bearing in order to save batteries. With the GPS turned off - no compass. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

3. Last I knew, electronic compasses were not nearly as accurate as a good magnetic compass - maybe +/- 2 degrees at best. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

4. It is VERY awkward (impossible?) to use map/compass orienteering techniques with a GPS compass. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh yea, there are tons of great GPS's out there these days. I tend to have an irrational allegience to Garmin - not sure why.

I think that ExpertGPS is similar to Maptech, but it looks like Maptech is more feature rich but also more expensive. I mostly use ExpertGPS to store and generate waypoints.

For electronic maps I really like the National Geographic Topo! maps, though they are a bit pricey - they are the best I've found. While ExpertGPS provides access to topo maps, it doesn't work nearly as well as NG's Topo!

I carry a Garmin Rino (FRS/GMRS radio plus GPS) and I occasionally lose signal in the woods. But I've never had to move more than 20 feet to reacquire it so I don't consider that too much of a problem. The real PITB with a GPS is that you have to be moving to use it. That's why I carry a Tru-Nord and a Brunton map compass.

Regards, Vince

norad,

I have a Garmin eTrex Vista, which has a built in compass and altimeter. You don't have to be moving to get a bearing, although it does have to be held level to get an accurate reading. And then it is succeptible to local magnetic variation- I tried finding a GeoCache near "Magnetic Rock" up in the BWCA, and the compass was near useless. If you know your altitude, you can use the altimeter as a barometer instead.

These are the GPS's I've owned or used:

Garmin 250 (panel mounted in a Cessna 172)
Garmin Pilot II
Garmin Pilot III+
Garmin 400/430 (panel mounted in a Cirrus SR20 and Cessna 182RG)
Garmin eTrex Vista (my current hiking GPS)
Garmin 296 (my driving and flying GPS)

Now I'm lusting after the new 396, which has XM Weather built in. It's also $1000 more than my 296, and the Weather subscription costs $30/ month. It's the latter that I squawk at more than anything, so I'm probably NOT going to get it. I can see the value of it though, if I flew more I'd certainly get it.

One thing I would really like to use a GPS for is canoe trips. However, I'd have to bring an extra pack for the batteries- paddling several hours a day would go through quite a few on a week long trip. But I grew up navigating with a compass and landmarks, with the old low-res fisher maps. Never been lost on a canoe trip. Maps are a lot better now, and I bring the GPS, just don't turn it on.

You don't have to be moving if the gps has a built in compass and altimeter.

You don't need to keep the GPS on all the time. Just turn it on when you need to get a sense of where you are relative to where you were (saved waypoint) and where you want to be (pre-entered waypoint - preferably using a PC & a PC-interface, but could also be entered using a USGS Topo map with UTM gridlines and a UTM grid tool). In between GPS readings, use your compass to follow the bearing taken off the compass.

I tend to be VERY battery conservative while out and about, whether it be flashlights, radios, or GPS's.

I have the Garmin Vista Color model. It includes compass and altimeter. IIRC, Garmin claims about 30 hours of battery life. I also turn it off between readings except when it's operating on vehicular electricity. Battery life does not seem to be a problem. I also find it much easier to use a conventional compass than the GPS compass.

When I was deciding on which GPS to get last year, I found the Garmin 60CS to be very attractive due to its larger screen, larger memory (56 vs. 28 mb), and easily attached external antenna. However, the Vista case appears to have superior watertight integrity. Sometimes the basics are just too important to risk.

Incidentally, I need to thank Mat. His recommendation to use transparent screen covers was an excellent idea. During my first trip, the GPS worked its way out of pocket and landed face down on gravel. Thanks to the screen cover, the GPS sustained no scratches to the screen.

John

Mine seems to get all squirrely when I stop. I will glance at my pin-on True Nord before I begin moving again and the Rino always seems to come back on course after a few seconds. I'll get it out and double check just the compass feature tonight.

Regards, Vince

Brangdon,

The thermometer is of minimal utility. Mostly I like the shape and size of the Suunto Comet. The thermometer is an extra bonus. It does have a wind-chill chart on the back. I am not sure how I would know what the wind speed is. I carry it in my watch pocket and it always says 90 degrees. It has a great size, shape, and declination scale that works. I went to our local mall Knife Shop and bought a Suunto Clipper with glow in the dark dial and bezel and put that in it. I don’t think a thermometer has survival value. I use the Cody Lundin test for hypothermia: if you can’t touch your little finger to your thumb - you are in trouble.

I checked the Rino last night. It appears that you do have to be moving to get the compass to work reliably. Several times I tried navigating, stopping, and doing a 180 degree turn. The compass ring moved with me. I began moving again and it corrected.

I quote from the manual (horrors!): "The Compass Ring does not function as a magnetic compass when you are stationary. Although the bearing to a point will be correct, you must be moving in order for the compass functions to work properly."

Maybe it should work as a map compass but mine does not--at least not reliably. I've only got one year of hunting with it under my belt though so I'm sure there are plenty of things I don't know about it yet.

Regards, Vince

Which version of the Rino do you have? I looked on the Garmin website, and only the Rino 130 has an "electronic compass".

"- Electronic compass displays accurate heading while standing still "

Mine is the 110. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> That probably explains it.

I once read somewhere that you need to be moving at least 5 mph (a good fast walk will do) to get a decent directional reading using purely the GPS positional information.

For finding directions I still prefer a good magnetic compass that I can play around with without worrying about the batteries draining. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I agree with all of you about the compass thing although as far as I know, all the older GPS units with a compass warn you that it works only when moving. When you select a waypoint and instruct it to "Go to" you get this compass rose pointing directly to the target with outside parameters to be set by the user. In other words, you can set it to where an alarm goes off if you stray more than fifty feet off course to right or left. This is for situations where you would be holding the compass in front of you for the entire trip. I don't find that a good choice. While I am watching the compass, I will step into a stump hole or smack a tree head on. I just take the bearing, confirm with a compass, and turn it off and follow the heading, checking periodically to see if I am still on course. That always works for me. Of course you can't always follow a straight line unless you can walk on water, walk thru barns, etc. They are now making GPS units with MP3 players built in and I believe, cell phones. I wish they would just stick to the basics and improve on any problems the unit is causing, namely the "moving compass". That being said, I still say that the GPS is the greatest navigation tool invented since.....................well........................anything! Don't let it intimidate you. It's not all that hard to master. You don't have to learn ALL it will do. Mine has three modes, namely "Easy Mode", "Advanced Mode" and "Hunt Mode". The easy mode more or less just gets you back to your vehicle which is all that a lot of folks would want. Then Advanced Mode goes into projecting waypoints, creating routes and return routes, etc. The more you fiddle with it, the more you will learn and you can enter the most foreboding wilderness with all the confidence in the world that you will emerge just where you entered and have a ball while you are in there saving waypoints, experimenting, etc. One final comment. I have never encountered a woods canopy that was so thick that I couldn't get a fix. Admittedly, on a few occasions it buzzes and says "Position Lost" but I take a step or two and it shows "Position Acquired". This scenario is so rare that it is not a problem. Wade into it and enjoy! Are you listening Benjammin with your divining rods, rules of sine, slide rules, protractors, etc.? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Question: "OK, understood. HOW FAR do I have to move? What if I can't?

Would you guys tell me something: you talk about powering-dawm the unit, and then bringing it back up to get a fresh bearing and to save batteries.

My question/comment is, is there not a 'reload' function to get a new bearing w/o power up/power down? and second, given that manufactureres' battery life claims to seem to be longer than what you guys are reporting, are you using as much or more power cycling than leaving it be?

I don't own one. i've been looking, but the consumer end technology seems to be in such state of flux that I am now glad I have held off.

Any comment about the integrated units with 2 way radio communication and/or NOAA monitoring capability?

Oh come on! Now I'm left wondering what the "Hunt Mode" does.

I'm guessing it won't stop pointing at the waypoint until the waypoint is identified as dead. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

GPS's are very cool and great to use. Eventually people will warm up to them and they'll be standard outdoor equipment.

What did they think about the first person who tried to ride a on top of a horse?

Can you imagine what users of flint & steel said when someone invented the wooden match?

Can you imagine what peple said when someone invented the magnetic compass?

... or the automobile, or the microwave oven, or the cell phone, or the personal computers, or fabrics made out of plastic ... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It takes time.

As a guy who sells GPS gear, I'll second the call for UTM -which is quickly becoming the standard for emergency services. UTM - which is used by the military as well - has so many advantages it's hard to list them all. Suffice it to say that this was good advice.

Only higher-end GPS units (over $240) have a "real" compass built in. None of the Magellan Explorist series do. Without a real compas, you need to be moving to get a bearing line.

Thanks for your response Martin. Now if there was just some way to get the USGS to print the UTM grid on ALL their topos. Perhaps a "plea" to our multimillionaire congressmen? Are you listening USGS?
I am looking at an old (1950) topo map and it has the UTM hash marks on the border. It was photorevised in 1971 so they might have been added then. At any rate, they have been around for 34 years and I doubt many people, myself included, had the foggiest idea of what they were.

For the benefit of those not familiar with these markings, they are located on all four borders of a topo map and are about 1 5/8 inches (1000 meters) apart and consist of a small number(s) followed by larger numbers. Map data in lower left hand corner of map says, "1000 meter Universal Transverse Mercator Grid ticks, Zone __, shown in blue." There are 60 UTM zones North to South worldwide. West Kentucky is Zone 16 and the numbers increase as you move East. Your zone will be displayed on GPS screen along with UTM figures.

As has been posted earlier several times, visit www.maptools.com for UTM tools and other map items including a good pamphlet explaining UTM. You can get the booklet and a plastic overlay UTM grid for $6. UTM sure beats longitude/latitude in degrees, minutes and seconds, something my mathematically challenged mind has never been able to completely grasp. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I guess the regions whose topo maps have been newly revised have UTM lines, but most still have just the margin tick marks. I hate hand drawing UTM lines, but don't have much choice.

Well, Ken you don't have to draw them. For just an occasional or emergency use, just fold the map up from the bottom and align with the tick marks. Then do the same with the left or right side of the map and you have located the 1000 meter square. Just as accurate as if the line was drawn. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ken, forgot to mention, as I have stated earlier somewhere, if you elect to draw the UTM lines, just draw every other one vertically and horizontally. Works just as well. Try it. You'll see what I mean.

I have the Garmin eTrex Lengend C and mine is the same way, need to be moving to get the compass to report correctly. It does seem to respond with just one or two steps in a relatively straight line though.

Michael

Good idea! Probably more accurate than if I drew them ... five thumbs on each hand <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

> Also, I find trying to follow a bearing using a GPS only to be very frustrating. The only decent way to follow a GPS bearing is to use a good compass.

I'm a bit surprised to hear people say this, as I've not had any problem. Maybe it depends on which GPS unit you have. Mine (GPSMap 60, without digital compass or colour screen) can display a map "trial up", or a rose, which makes it obvious if you are walking in the right direction. With this approach you leave the device switched on while you walk. Maybe the difference is that you guys switch it off, walk, stop, switch it on, then are surprised the bearing is wrong?