John,<br><br>Seems like you have it all in hand. To me the 260 M7 Youth has mild recoil but a nasty bark. To the kid it was all the recoil he wanted and stinging muzzle blast (not the loudness - we use ample hearing protection). Same kid shoots an 870 Y 20 ga - but only on his hind legs, not from some sort of supported position.<br><br>The 243 seems to be a superb choice for deer to varmints in conventional offerings. My dad has one (he loans it to family members) and it has dropped mule deer and antelope in their tracks every time.<br><br>I have modified enough barrels to notice that muzzle blast starts to escalate quickly in the 18-20 inch range, depending on caliber and case capacity. When we got the M7Y, they came with a pencil-like 19" bbl. They now have a 20" bbl... guess Remington noticed... Might be worth looking at the M700Y in 243 (1/2 lbs heavier).<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

Tom,<br><br>I'm getting some great ideas. In a few mos. my then 12 year old will tentatively start on mom's .243 Rem 788. For once my wife's diminutive stature will help (5'2"). He's now 5'1". The gun should fit. Weight will be issue. It's heavy. Accuracy is outstanding and recoil is negligible. Muzzle blast will be attenuated with double hearing protection. If he can handle the weight, and his performance with target .22s indicate he should be able to do so, then he may be able to go to a full sized rifle with only a shortened stock. I like that idea of yours. If not, nothing is lost. The shortened Rem 700 Youth looks promising. I hadn't noticed it before. <br><br>I may begin to experiment with down-loaded .270 Win. in my own gun, to explore its potential. Advantages: easy to upgrade when growth allows, versatile caliber, easy procurement, no addition to logistical burden since it's already one of our standard family calibers. <br><br>I'm also interested in your 6.5 X 55mm Swedes. What is the range of useful balistics in your experience. Also, what are the dimensions of your self-smithed M96s, especially OAL & wt?<br><br>If all else fails, we still have the .243 Win as a known winner. I'm also going to look into the .257 Roberts (maybe even Rob. Imp.). <br><br>I'll also explore the idea of a TC carbine. I have no idea of what reaction to expect. The idea sounds really promising.<br><br>Thanks for all the help.<br><br>John<br><br>

Ah, heck, don't scare me like that John- I'm kidless and unless they come with thier mom, it isn't going to change. However, I have taught kids, and won't teach any of them at the ages I was when I was shooting, much less with what I was shooting at that age.<br><br>Kids in general scare me- most of them you can't talk to. I've been accused my family of never having been a kid, so maybe that's why I'm afraid of them.<br><br>Yes, the big guy who isn't overly disturbed by nearly dieing is terrified of being placed in charge of a ten year old for twenty minutes.

John, the T/C Contender and Encore both have awfully tight releases on them. I sometimes have trouble with mine, becuase of short fingers. Just something to keep in mind for a youth gun.<br><br>The H&R-clones are accurate enough to be useful, and thier thumb break is lighter. Not quite as strong, but if your son has smallish hands, a lot easier to use. They are also a lot les expensive, just in case the learner gun is quickly outgrown, capability wise.

Cybe,<br><br>Sorry, I didn't mean to scare an old bachelor. I guess the prospect of having children does seem a little scary if you don't have a wife yet. But don't worry; my kids scare me all the time. You just have to remember that they're not supposed to be the boss. Just let them have fun with you. By the way, my wife regularly accuses me of both being a ninety year old man from birth, and never having grown up, and sometimes in the same breath.<br><br>Thanks for the warning re the tight opening on the TCs. It's great to know those quirks in advance.<br><br>I've also noticed that with Rems 581/541/788, for all of their virtues, it is hard to close the bolts. An action job helps. However they're still harder for say a 9 year old to close. Marlins are much easier.<br><br>As much as I/we dearly love the Savage 24s, kids still find cocking the external hammer hard to do. That means, proficiency testing is necessary before someone is allowed to use them without very close supervision. It seems to be an issue of strength, and hence physical maturity. Fortunately, they seem easy to open.<br><br>Thanks for the heads up.<br><br>John<br><br><br><br> <br><br>

John,<br><br>I used M96 Mausers because they were cheap, very well made, and in one of the "magic" calibers that has proven effective from inception to this day. Because they are small ring Mausers, I did not attempt to load them to the potential of the cartridge in, say a Ruger, even though these German and Swedish made Mausers are probably more than adequate for that (many have been and are converted to 308).<br><br>Loads used range from 100 gr Sierra Varminteer thru Hornady 140 gr I-locked. Bores are Moly conditioned and bullets are moly coated. Velocities are much higher than factory loads; deponent sayeth not further. I have headspace gauges... I did not try the 85 gr bullets as the twist is VERY fast in these rifles - 1 turn in 7.6 inches if I recall correctly.<br><br>The largest one is on a full-length stock. Bbls, as mentioned previously, are long for a Scout - 21.5 inches. OAL of this largest one is 41" and the real-world weight is 8 lbs 12 oz (rifle with 'scope, sling, 5 rounds of 140 gr ammo, and field cleaning gear. We found a long time ago that if the balance is good (superb with these), the boys can carry a 9 lbs long arm for days with no problem.<br><br>Hope that answers your question.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom

Hey, I'm not that old. :)<br><br>The T/Cs are also external cocking. The hammers are often blocked by long scope bodies, so there is a number of people who make side extension knobs for the hammer, which might make them easier for people with small hands to cock. <br><br>I also seem to recall seeing double-rifle barrel assemblies being available for one of the over/unders Baikail is making (forgot thier importer, sorry). Those are pretty inexpensive, and supposedly easy to swap. The sights are mounted on the barrel assemblies, so changing the barrel won't blow your zero, and theyare internal hammers. I haven't handled one yet, but the other Baikail arms I've handled all seemed on par with budget-priced US makers, like Savage, and given their Russian engineering, they are probably about as reliable and likely to wear out as gravity is.<br><br>

Tom,<br><br>The 6.5 Swede looks like a good cartridge. I've read that it has prodigious stopping power, perhaps due to its heavy bullets. I guess the long bullets are the reason for the very fast rate of twist. How do its external ballistics compare with the .260 Rem? Superficially they seem similar, except as to the former's ability to utilize long heavy bullets. Still, I bet the 21.5" bbl & 8.75# wt made it a lot more fun to shoot than the .260 M7.<br><br>I noticed that Ruger still chambers the Swede in the M77 Mk II.<br>How readily available have you found the cartridges & component to be? Also I'm gathering that neither recoil nor muzzle blast were a problem with your M96 scout rifles for your boys. Am I right?<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>John

Cybe,<br><br>You're only colloquially old, as in old buddy :-)<br><br>It sounds like we'll have a lot of options. I've also heard good reports on Baikal's combination rifle & shotgun, which I find appealing. They make very sturdy, well designed, and as you imply probably nearly indestructible guns. Their Makarov is certainly a very well made pistol which is also a great bargain.<br><br>Thanks for the ideas Cybe.<br><br>John

John,<br><br>We probably should take this off line so it doesn't bore everyone else to tears <grin>.<br><br>Fair warning: I'm going to be a little long-winded here.<br><br>Elk and intentions of other trips yet in the future had me really fussing over what rifles, what caliber for the boys. As many can probably relate, my thoughts were shaped by my experiences...<br><br>My first personal "high power" was a 7x57 - Dad had others and I shot them, but MY first one was a 7x57. I loved it so much that later I assembled a custom one based on a commercial Mauser action - a lovely rifle, and I wish I still had it Great romance with that cartridge, great reputation. (I know who has that first one I built on a sweet little M93 carbine - it takes a deer each fall in Nebraska; old when I built it as a 14 year old lad with my paper route money, it soldiers on today.)<br><br> I loaded hot and accurate - not held-down loads for a supposedly flawed M93 (I have never seen a "flawed" one, but... I only bought a case of 10, keeping the best for myself - what do I know?). <br><br>As a young man, found myself in Alaska. For reasons best forgotten, sold that lovely commercial Mauser and switched to a 308. It was OK. But its last trip (with me) it darned near got me killed - too big and tough a grizzly, too close, awful penetration and bullet performance and I swore that day I would NEVER use that manufacturer's rifle bullets again (and I never have, not even target or varmint bullets). My Dad points out that I DID kill the bear... but he wasn't there; it was not fun.<br><br>At the time I sneered at using "magnums" in North America. I'm not so set in my ways now, but I was then. On a trip outside, I dumped the 308 and picked up a 30-06 - it was what my Dad always used; it was the first "high power" caliber I fired (as many of us, I suspect - in a M1903A3) as a kid.<br><br>Well, now. This turned out to be something else. It was, and remains, very accurate (altho a beast to clean, as I mentioned earlier) - more accurate than it needs to be. I used it for everything - for a few years even (don't laugh) - prairie dogs - it really is accurate for an '06. It became my "one rifle", and is the one I instictively pick up to this day, even with racks of others to chose from. In all these years, only two things have stepped out of their tracks: "The bullet-proof bear" and a mule deer that I shot with an "elk load" (too tough a bullet for a heart-lung shot - it ran 20 steps). The bear story is amusing from a distance, but best told in person around a campfire.<br><br>In those years my Dad, too, became a "one rifle" man - for him it is a heavy barreled .280, and we can see no difference in utility or usefulness between the two, having spent many hunts together (and more to come, I hope). We became very fond of Hornady Interlocked bullets, for irrefutable reasons - and sometimes Remington Core-locked. <br><br>Now my dilema was to put together something together for our boys... something that could be their "one rifle" for several years, until they firmed things up for themselves.<br><br>Boy, did I sweat that! I knew that as soon as I took care of the eldest, the other two would be clamoring for theirs - they are close in age. Money was not "tight", but it had limits. I knew I would not stint on the optics - that punts costs up right off the bat. And there WAS a small but significant spread in mass and stature between the three at the time.<br><br>I think I looked at everything. I'm sure I looked at every caliber available in an off-the-shelf chambering. I flirted with the idea of a 308 a few times. The first bear incident haunted me. Not enough penetration. A 7mm? Maybe a 7mm-08? I wanted to go with a 243 for lots of reasons... but worried about it. Anyway, I talked to lots of people I respect; people with experience. I read and re-read things, drawing my own conclusions. The little gun that went "pop" and simply killed game started getting interesting - the 6.5x54 (or 53) M-S. Not very impresive paper ballistics, but really impressive performance. Of course, the caliber and the rifle are one - no chance of getting any deals on 3 butterknife M-S rifles, and besides, they are terrible to put a 'scope on.<br><br>Then a flood of M96 and M94 Mausers came on the market. Same caliber, a little more oomph. Bonus: a reputation as a very accurate caliber, even in the old Mausers. The rifles were CHEAP. And there was some nice symmetry for me - they were essentially "high grade" M93 Mausers, which was MY very first personal centerfire. I ordered a couple. I was flabbergasted - these were not time-worn and hard used like my old M93 - these were primo; well cared for, arsenal re-built. I shot them - first with some surplus ammo (Berdan primed - I loaded a lot of that many years ago and did not care to repeat that). Hmmm, pretty good. Then some commercial ammo - PMC. Hey, this was getting interesting - and with iron sights, yet! Tried some reloads with the PMC brass and Hornady 129 gr bullets - holy smokes, these things are accurate!<br><br>OK - it bugged me that the case is a wierdo - slightly larger than "Mauser Standard" 0.473 inch - who knows what Paul was thinking when he dreamt that up - but hey, who cares? It's not like I was going to change the caliber sometime later - even if I did, all it would take with THOSE rifles was a different extractor and maybe some magazine/lip alterations.<br><br>Bought 500 new Winchester brass, more bullets, and a mold. Just about anything I fed them was accurate. Those cast gas-checked bullets? Zowie! Hehehe - son #1 and I even shot some High-power competition (they indulged me - he was a bit young at the time) with those - 2200 fps and accurate enough to beat more than half the other competitors - and we were using antique long bolt actions against the little black guns (that mostly beat us), M1As, Garands, and an HK or two. Not many 30 cal shooters beat us. I was almost convinced...<br><br>Dad sent me a "sporterized" Swede to check out. What it really was was a M94 stuck on a birch sporter stock with tall "see-thru" scope mounts, a cheap 3x9, and no other alterations. It sucked to shoot it with those mounts... but it let me find out from the bench that these things had quite an accuracy potential. OK; I'm hooked now. But man, I really did NOT want to spend the time and money doing a decent job of conventionally sporterizing 3 rifles - it's not cheap, and there are not many off-the-shelf good options for small ring Mausers (some entrenpreneur has really missed the boat). I figured it would bankrupt me for time and money to do it right.<br><br>Picked up goofy gadget that went in place of the reaf sight leaf and allowed the use of a long eye relief scope (pistol scope). I tried it out - it worked, and the groups were impressive. But what a jury-rigged affair! It would never hold up 2 steps into the world outside the range. Enter a magazine article, then another, about Mauser make-overs into Scout rilfes... and there was my ticket - an Ashley-Clifton mount. I had actually been thinking about something very similar and wondering if I could make it work, and here it was!<br><br>Built one. I must have measured and adjusted 20 times on my old drill press before I gingerly drilled the two holes - and I must have checked depth every 0.005 inches - this wasn't just ANY rifle, it was a German-built M96 hand-picked by son #1 as HIS rifle, and I didn't want to screw anything up. It came out fab. Finished things up in the evenings that week. Dropped a new Leupold "Scout Scope" on it and "Bore sighted" it the old fashioned way - look thru the bore, look thru the scope - you know the drill. Went the the range on the weekend. Fired three rounds -oooo, nice group -- two clicks, fired three rounds - right where I wanted it. Not bad!<br><br>Let son take over. Mind you, this is a 2.3 power scope (advertised as 2.5) and it's mounted way out there - he fires five rounds carefully. Uhhh... that's a pretty good - let's go take a closer look. Uh-huh - under 1.5 inches. He is estatic. I am wondering "...just how accurate are these things?" as he happily chatters and skips back to the firing line with me.<br><br>This is a 90 year old rifle with a lock time in the "sledge hammer" range (altho there is NO doubt in my mind that any primer IS going to go off from that whack). The trigger is pretty nice - in fact, I left it alone. Nothing wrong with a two-stage trigger, especially for a kid (or a Dad that is used to those from his youth and his vocation) - that second stage was crisp and definite, not too heavy.<br><br>Then we worked on loads in earnest. It likes about everyting we have fed it. Tried Remington and Winchester factory ammo, too. It was workman-like, but... mild loads, not my favorite bullets, and the accuracy was OK but nowhere near the potential of the rifle. Say, sub 2 inch groups at 100 yards. Plenty good enough, but we already knew the rifle was much more capable.<br><br>The loads we standardized on are not going to have anyone scared of blowups (nervous Dad that I am, I have headspace gauges, know how to use them, and have kept records - all is as it was when we started, and I still check once in a while). But they are significantly more "robust" than factory. The PMC, by the way, was actually pretty warm factory ammo and shot pretty good. Chrongraphed everything and did statistical analysis, of course - we were getting down to splitting hairs, so to speak. Groups were 10 shot groups for a higher confidence level. What we have are respectable loads for 100 grain Sierra Varminters, 129 gr Hornady Interlocked, and 140 gr Hornady Interlocked. For paper energy buffs, the 129s and 140s are sufficient for Elk. There is a guide who uses a 6.5x55 as his "elk stopper" rifle (factory ammo) when a nimrod wounds one and it takes off over the hill. Why? Because he says "It blows blood and bone meal out the far side and puts the animal down right away..." Crude words, but telling...<br><br>By the way, all these loads are sub 1 inch outside-to-outside at 100 yards. And they are way sub 2 inch at 200 yards, which just fascinates me, because everything looks so TINY through those scopes. As I wrote earlier, this son is just deadly on prarie dogs with his rifle. We had two Marine Colonels with us on one trip. They were great company and good folks to be out with. On the last day - a windy one - I was sitting things out - lots of dogs, but at range and with the wind and my .223 it was more relaxing to sit and sniff the air. I gradually became aware that the Marines had stopped shooting their 22-250 and 243 and were silently standing behind my son as he laid into the dogs at 350 - 400 yards. After a few minutes they came back to where I was and said - "Your son sure can shoot that funny rifle. He's reaching out there better than we are..." Of course, I was kinda proud of him - even the Marines could see that the boy and his rifle worked well together <grin>.<br><br>The rest is history - I built more. I like the Burris 2.75 Scope better, and I'd be willing to bet that it's a bit more robust than the Leupold. I won't give up my 30-06, but these have been great rifles so far for the boys.<br><br>This has all taken place in the last three years and our one opportunity in between then and now for a great clan hunt was repeatedly interfered with by "cowboys" from Denver, unfortunately. I was really POed about that - boys stalking all day, then men on horses galloping out of the timber, blazing away. Repeatedly. Third trip that sort of thing has happened, even on private land that we had permission on (and they did not). So bad that time that we went without, and it bugs me that my boys have not experinced that bittersweet thrill/sorrow of a successful big game hunt first hand as a result. We will not hunt that state again, regretably - it has gotten worse each time, and it's the "locals", not us out-state folks who behave like that. More varminting, and we're planning another trip West soon - as soon as Grandpa (my Dad) is ready - probably next year.<br><br>I know I didn't give you specific ballistics. I assure you that they are respectable and quite safe, but they are off *some* charts AND remember that they are moly bores and bullets, which takes a bit more powder (usually) than naked bullets. Oh - last trip to the Dakotas, we tried out some Hornady 95 gr V-Max bullets. Very impressive! Eldest son won't change from what he likes, but the other two use them now instead.<br><br>Sorry for being long-winded, but I meant to explain why I chose that rifle and caliber - my reasonings and reasons may not be applicable for you, I and I don't want to mis-lead anyone. Dads and kids should figure these things out together for themselves, eh?<br><br>Good shooting; good hunting,<br><br>Tom