Survival Question:

Doggies….specifically a hyper Doberman or Rottie. It will actually come across the street to try and bite. Before I react with deadly force, what kind of chemical spray will make an upset doggie disappear?

I don’t particularly want to hurt it, but I’m not getting bit. I am also going to try some tasty doggie biscuits to help make friends.

Answer:

Call the police. It is the owners responsbility to keep their animal confined to their property and under control.

As a dog owner, I am appalled and embarrased. I feel these types of owners need to be told their behavior is unacceptable.

Other that, I'm certainly no expert, but I think a can of Fox Labs OC spray would probably deter a lot of critters. However, I would try to give them a "warning shot", shooting between you and them. Let them get a whiff without hitting them direct on. Certainly OC spray hitting their delicate mucas membranes head on is likely to be pretty hard on them.

Again, I'd like to repeat I don't have any real experience with truely agressive animals (fearful animals or guarding animals are a different thing) and for all I know it will really torq them off and cause them to attack. Certainly OC spray isn't 100% effective on humans.

Get the police involved.

-john


Edited for clairity.

DevilDog305,

The situation you describe is not fair to you, your neighbors, and especially the dog. I have trained dogs for thirty three years and I have found that all dogs have an Achilles Heel. You just have to find out what that is. I train dogs to overcome their particular fears. But someone else’s dog is not your responsibility.

At your first opportunity, contact the dog’s owner. No dog, trained or otherwise, should be allowed to run loose. In most cases, the dog will be the one to suffer either by becoming lost, stolen, injured, or killed. In the remaining cases, someone is injured or worse, usually a child.

The owner is always at fault when a dog is allowed to run free, however an owner’s irresponsibility should not be permitted to cause harm, injury, or death to another animal or human. In many parts of the country, a loose threatening animal is legally allowed to be summarily shot.

If the dog’s owner does not take immediate action, contact Animal Control. They have been trained to provide a remedy. With the number of deaths caused by dogs highlighted by the media in the last few years, local governments are also held liable for not taking action. You also have a moral obligation to protect yourself and the innocent people that pass through your neighborhood.

Bottom line, this situation needs to be addressed before someone is badly injured or worse.

I love dogs but letting a dog, any breed, run loose is like leaving a loaded gun out in the front yard.

Just imagine what would happen if the dog comes up against a 6 year old girl!! An uncontrolled dog is a danger to children, wildlife, other dogs, and the dog itself.

If you know the neighbor, call the neighbor and complain. If you feel uncomfortable about that, then just call the police.

These are the types of pet owners who give all pet owners a bad name. I run into these types of owners or their pets more than I would wish to. When I walk my dogs I tend to do so with the idea that today may be the day we are attacked again.
I have used sprays but find for my personal use I prefer a walking stick they can be used to steer a wayward dog away from you, hold them at bay or applied forcefully to the tender parts of their bodies depending on the circumstances.
My dogs are usually begging me to let them handle the problem but that would be negligent on my part out side of very special circumstances.
I would in your case contact the owners soonest and then the town council or law enforcement in your area. But be prepared to defend yourself no matter what the others do.
We have an owner of 3 mastiffs in my town that has her dogs so out of control that she complained about me just walking by her house on the road. Said her dog were uncontrollable when other dogs walked by and said I was not to go by her house any more. I reminded her that roads were public property but that as a nice guy I would route my walks around her house for the most part. I also told her that her dogs would end sadly for all involved if she did not get them under control. But like most bad owners she does not care. Someone will be hurt before she sees the light.

I've used humane live traps to catch unwanted critters (including dogs) trespassing on my property. When I catch a stray dog, I do one of two things. I turn it over to the local animal control authority (usually SPCA), or I take it 50 miles out of town and turn it lose. Either way, no more problems.

Of course, you have to be discrete about the capture and transport, but it isn't that difficult.

I guess I could just catch them and kill them, but it ain't their fault. They just need to find a better home to live in.

A live trap big enough to catch most dogs with costs me maybe $50, and I can re-use it many times, or rent it out to other like minded individuals. It is a worthwhile investment, and no one, including the dog, gets hurt that way.

If you go through the trouble of catching them, please don't turn them loose. Please turn them over to a shelter or rescue organization.

Otherwise, they are likely going to just die anyway, probably slowly, painfully and scared.

Yes, I know the shelter may put them down. But it is probably better than starving to death or getting hit by a car and dying in a ditch.

-john

Don't get me wrong here, if I turn em loose, it is just to get them into another jurisdicition where the orignal owner won't think to look for them. I wouldn't put them out in the boonies where they have to fend for themselves, they're likely to get caught by the SPCA in a different town. I'd give take them there myself, only the laws prevent them from accepting strays from folks not from that area, so I do the next best thing. Either way, I don't think I've made the animal's plight any worse than it was when I caught it, maybe I even gave it a better chance.

It is depressing to go to all the trouble to catch the animal and turn it in, only to have it show up in my yard two or three days later after the owner has gone and bailed it outta doggie jail. That's how plan #2 came into existence. Nothing else ever seems to work, not even calling the cops.

Dogs are Mankind's oldest companion and domesticated animal. Ironically, we persecute the ones who stayed outside the campfire's light and maintain the same genetic material. I once cared for a wolf while his human was away. Spot was a carefully socialised male chosen for his easygoing personality. A nieghbor had two of the currently infamous pitbulls, another fine breed ruined by people. They broke free and nearly killed a standard poodle before turning on and cornering the newspaper boy blocking them with his bike after feebly trying to intervene. Spotty decided enough was enough and went over a 7' fence. He 'resolved' the situation just as the police and animal control arrived. I got Spot leashed as the AC officer complimented my Mallinois Shepherd's bravery. Spot decided it was time for a victory howl, said sound sending shivers through our very bone marrow. The AC officer then noticed his yellow eyes, rather large feet and gave me a knowing wink. Sadly, Dogs reflect all of our own specie's shortcomings <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

For god's sake don't just turn them out. I have killed several dozen that well meaning people like you have tried to "help.' They turn feral. They kill livestock. They get shot. Period.

I guess the point is people need to take care of their animals, or they become a problem for everyone then.

From a survival perspective, animals is animals. Some depend on humans, most can get by well enough on their own. Few of them provide much support for our survival, except to become a much needed meal. The few that do help usually require a significant investment of our time to develop the requisite symbiotic skills (security, stealth, predation).

For my part, I do the only thing available to me by law, which is exactly what I've described. It is not the most humane in the short term, but perhaps in the long run it is better for the species (both ours and theirs).

Those who shirk their responsiblities lose their privileges. There are no exceptions. Better a feral dog kill a calf than my child, and that is unfortunately the cold, hard choice I am left with, both by my idiot neighbors and by the idiots downtown who make stupid rules.

I guess I could just shoot the things for trespassing, only I have grown weary of putting down people's pets. I used to do it as a favor, but it is tough to plug ole fido anymore.

Here in Baghdad, dogs are not pets, they are a menace. The Iraqis don't want anything to do with them, and we hear about rabid cases regularly. We use well trained and cared for dogs to complement our security.

I really would like to be more compassionate about the whole affair, and I reckon if I didn't have certain responsibilities myself, I might take in more strays, or be more the neighborhood sentinel, watching over the canine residents and visitors from on high. Alas, such is not to be for me, and so I must be the belligerent landowner.

Thank goodness my own dog understands these things. He is quite happy and content to stay on his leash when we go for walks, or to play out in the fenced in backyard. He only has wanderlust when we are in the field hunting for birds. If he were to get out and wander around, I would worry and fret over him like a lost child, and be ashamed at not caring for my charge as I should.

I am not trying to help these vagabonds, except to get them away from uncaring owners. What happens beyond that, my concern does not reach to.

In the past I've done a little research looking for a decent OC spray. On several forums, the consensus seems to be that, as John said below, Fox Lab OC is widely regarded. It's the "hottest" stuff out there at 5 million SHU (my ASP palm defender only has 2 million SHU, but I like it's size). You'll probably want to make sure you get stream or foam to minimize exposure to yourself when you're bouncing around trying to avoid the dog. Any sort of wind might send fog or cone right back atcha.

This reminds me of something unexpected that happened to me a while back. I was taking a walk near my neighborhood to get to the hiking trails, and some lady's huge black dog (no leash or collar) started coming at me on the sidewalk, barking and growling. For a moment I thought, "Is this the day that I have to punch out someone's dog?" and braced myself for it. The dog gets two feet away from me, starts wagging his tail, whining, and licks my hand. It was the least likely thing I thought would happen.


And, Benjammin, there's nothing wrong with being set in your ways, especially since you ARE getting the dogs away from idiotic owners, but I'm going to stick with the others here and encourage you to turn the dogs in rather than turn them loose. Unless you are driving these animals to the doorstep of the next town's animal shelter, how do you know that you've given them a better chance? I'd much prefer to drive the OWNERS 50 miles out of town.

I spent 3 minutes on Google and found a slew of different rescue organizations in Washington State : http://www.pgaa.com/washington.html
Please don't let the extra effort deter you.

In some locales, I've read pepper spray is illegal -- as is everything else, it seems. No matter your life or someone else's is at stake.

On another forum, someone wrote that he carries bear spray. Works for him and is not illegal.

I would also get the police involved.

In addition, I'd carry a solid walking stick. Phil Elmore is currently reviewing the Unbreakable Walking Stick Umbrella. It's an overbuilt umbrella you can kick butt with.

-- Craig

Relocating a mean dog isn't doing anyone any favors. You don't want it to bite your kid, but someone else's kid is okay? Don't think so. Friendly dogs are one thing, just a nuisance that might cause an accident. Mean dogs: SSS (shoot, shovel & shut up).

Also, you might call your local Animal Control & find out how many times they will return dogs to their owners before they stop. Here, they keep it on the third pickup.

Sue

Agreed. I love dogs, but once one has turned out the same as it's trainer/human, it's best put down. Quickly. Wish I could do the same to the human <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I used to, as a child in the country, receive a $5.00/tail bounty for feral dogs in my area because they were killing livestock and in one instance a person. At 13, in one spring, I made over $5000 with my bow. You do the math. I _will_ say that at least half of the dogs wore collars--abandoned by "well-meaning" people in the country.

Shoot your own dog. He/She deserves it, it's kinder than what a stranger will do.

Okay, I wouldn't say that I am set in my ways, just that I've tried everything else and I know what works and what doesn't. Let me recap the process one more time, with a little extra explanation thrown in.

In my neighborhood, if I have a problem dog, I will catch it and take it to the local animal control authority.

If the owner of the dog subsequently recovers their pet, and the dog becomes a problem again, I will catch it again and relocate it out of our ACA's jurisdiction. ACAs in other jurisdictions will not accept animals from people not residing in their jurisdiction. Now I have a choice; I can take the animal back to my own ACA, I can put it down myself, or I can release it in the out of town jurisdiction. I know the outcome of taking it back to my own ACA, and I am no longer in the business of voluntarily putting animals down myself, so I am left with only one other choice. I release it in an area in the out of town jurisdiction in a place where it is likely to get picked up. It is not a 100% sure thing, but it is better than the other two alternatives.

Does anyone have a better suggestion? I keep seeing people tell me to turn the dogs in, but where? Our ACA will keep giving the animal back to the owner as long as they are willing to pay the fee, and the dog doesn't appear to pose an immediate threat (non violent manner, no apparent illness).

Yes, I agree, I would also prefer to drive the owners 50 miles out of town instead.

Maybe I need to work on those communication skills a little more.

I'm just supprised if you showed up in a different town and dropped the dog off at a shelter that they wouldn't take it. Seems like you could always claim you are just driving through and spotted this dog along the roadside.

-john

Yeah, and I just happened to have this here live trap with me to put it into. I guess if I was willing to risk having a loose dog in the car with me, leashed even, I might get away with it, only I am a lousy liar.

It is the essence of irresponsibility to catch and relocate a dog because it is a problem to you. You thereby visit the exact problem you had with the dog on another innocent party. That is why we have animal control officers. We have lost far too much livestock due to marauding feral dogs to tolerate the problem. Moreover, both my 12 yo son and I got our legs chewed up by vicious dogs last year. We're not real sympathetic to your approach.

John

Benjammin: "Here in Baghdad, dogs are not pets, they are a menace."

They are here, too, sport, they are here too, as you aknowledge in you post. I don't mind you being wrong, but please be consistent.

Ok guys, I think the horse is dead. I think everyone has been able to make their point.

Maybe we could keep this limited from here on out to constructive suggestions for Benjammin on how he could deal with his problems or suggestions for Devildog305 on how he could deal with his issue?

-john

You still haven't answered my question, what else am I supposed to do?

It is the essence of irresponsible legislation that forces me to take actions I might otherwise avoid.

From a survival standpoint, I cannot rely on the good intentions or promised actions of others to secure the welfare of myself or my family, so I take matters into my own hands to the extent the law allows and my own conscience will tolerate. The welfare of others comes secondary to that. Sorry if that sounds uncharitable, but I cannot afford to be sympathetic to others at the expense of my own. The disparity in the vested interest is too great.

I would offer this, being prepared to deal with vicious dogs will mitigate the chance you will be attacked and suffer injury. I would not use my lack of preparedness to deal with a known threat to inculpate someone else's defensive actions of same.

You would have me just let the neighbors' dogs come and go from my property whenever their owners decide not to be responsible? I would prefer there was an alternative for me, but I have not heard a viable one yet.

No John, it is not dead. The more I think about it the angrier it makes me. How about, Benjammin, you were with me the day I came up on the 6 feral dogs that had the newborn calf hemmed up in the corner of the pen with its mother going nuts? This within sght of a barn, within 5 miles of a town? With the calf potentially worth $10,000.00? After the little batards had killed 3 the previous week? Change your mind any? Yes/no?

How about sueing the owners? Could be as simple as small claims court. Certainly seems feasable if they are repeat offenders.

-john

benjammin,

If your animal control authorities are ineffective, then document it, complain to their departmental manager, the political authorities who run the department or governmental entity, and publicize it in your local newspaper/radio/TV station. Fix your problems; don't dump them on others. Your approach not only leaves the scofflaw owners unpunished, but you are also enabling the laziness or ineffectualiy of your animal control authorities on whom you are wasting your tax dollars. You might also be able take civil and criminal legal action against the owner depending on the circumstances.

You need to do some serious rethinking.

Let's analyze your present approach: When you have a problem with trespassing vicious dogs, you trap them and take them out of your neighborhood in order to dump them on new victims in a different area. Thus you do not eliminate predatory animals. You enable them to find unsuspecting fresh victims. You ignore the owner's responsibility. So in addition to the harm you inflict on the innocent, you surreptitiously steal the dog and leave the abusive owner unpunished and free to get more dogs to prey on his neighbors.

Besides the moral and practical obnoxiousness of your approach, you commit theft, you abuse and abandon animals of which you have control or custody, and you endanger the public (as well as livestock) by setting dangerous animals loose on it.

Incidentally, I was not unprepared when I repelled the 2 dogs attacking my son. I prevailed over them. My son and I sustained only superficial leg wounds. Afterwards I took legal action against the owner for allowing such dangerous animals to attack us. In contrast to your approach: I directly resolved the problem; I did not shift it to innocent victims; and I turned the consequences of the irresponsible behavior back on the owner.

John

As a father of three young girls, I feel for you. It seems like these owners and there dogs have more rights than you or I do on our own property. There's a family down the street from me who bred "pit bulls" for money. These dogs haven't eaten any children, yet; but one of them killed my cat a year ago. Also last month one of them grabbed the little dog across the street and ripped its back side out. Animal control say's they can't do anything until they caught the dog "out of its yard". The pit bull owner said her welfare check won’t cover the Vet. bill so the little dogs own is out $1000.dollars.
How many nice people and there animals need to suffer for delinquent pet owner before something is done.
I bet if the governor or mayor had there child torn up or there pet eaten, they would past some new laws.

I myself don't like taking the law into my own hand but it seem like the people who believe in the law and the rights of others, many times have no rights. Does anyone no what steps to take to get some laws made.
Or maybe it’s time for a “Gopher Go” sandwich over the fence.

KICK ASS John, my hats off to you.

"I bet if the governor or mayor had there child torn up or there pet eaten, they would past some new laws."

Usually, the laws are already there, they just aren't enforcing them. Sad to say, but law enforcement agencies only enforce the laws they want to enforce.

Sue

benjammin,

Can you give me a few general details as to your location? Are you in an urban, suburban, or rural area and which county in Washiington are you located?

As a pass president of a ranchers association in the State of Washington, there are legal options for taking action depending on your location, open range area or not.

We had a real problem with people relocating from the city and letting their dogs, some very expensive and beautiful dogs, run loose and harrassing live stock. After checking with the county attorney, we had a number of options. Some of those options let the ranchers take the matter in their own hands. One variant was rather gruesome but humane. Afterward, everyone knew what happened to the dogs, where it happened, and who did it. At the same time, this action proved the guilt of the owner in letting the dog run loose and protected the ranchers from liability. This action also put the burden of proof on the owner that his dog was not guilty. If the owner did take legal action, they ended paying the rancher damages. This action takes balls but to this day, no one lets their dogs run loose in that part of Klickitat County.

Again, I am a long time dog lover and trainer. Try dealing with the owner. If that does not work, once you know your legal options, you can inform him of the consequences to his dog if he does not take corrective action.

John,

I am afraid I am still not properly conveying my message here, so I will try one last time and then I think we should probably move on or risk being censured.

All your points in your last message make sense, on paper. In fact, these are the same ideas I came up with in the past, and pursued. The end result was that for 6 months our SPCA center was shut down, and we had nowhere in our area to take unwanted animals, which created a huge mess. Then we were stuck with a for profit kennel that would not accept animals unless you paid money up front. When folks started going to nearby jurisdictions, it didn't take the other ACAs long to come up with a "no outsiders" policy as well. Our city council was queried, and they just shrugged and said "that's business". It was in the newspaper for a while, and there were some letters to the editor, but nothing changed, mainly because there was no funding for anything different. If dogs were branded livestock, then I would agree that taking strays off my property willfully could be considered theft, but they are not, so open range laws do not apply to them. They are, from the DA's viewpoint, abandoned property, and can be thus treated. As far as civil action goes, I don't like spending precious time and money to go to court (even small claims court) only to find that my hispanic neighbors are "judgement proof", and have nothing I would want or could use/resell for any value, not to mention that then I have started a war with these people. There is nothing surreptitious or criminal about my methods, any more than having the tow truck operator impound your vehicle for being illegally parked.

For the two times I've had to resort to relocating someone's pet out of town, they thus far have not replaced the animal, or if they have, I have not seen the replacement yet. So I would conclude my approach had the desired effect, without creating any undesirable confrontations.

I am glad that the outcome of your encounter worked out as well as you portray. From your previous post, I concluded that you had suffered more grievous injury, but you handled it as you saw fit, and if I were faced with similar danger, I would likely use necessary force to defend myself and utilize legal remedies as well. Fortunately, this is not a huge problem where I live, so my issues really have more to do with property rights than with outright defense. Still, pre-emptive action to remove strays is I believe a sound proactive approach.

What I would do is not legally considered abuse or abandonment, at least not by my local constabulary, and the public is already in danger from an animal that is already loose on it, so how does someone else's inconsideration suddenly become my responsibility? I am not going to pay to have someone else's dog impounded.

Pure and simple, my approach works, and gives the animal a better chance than putting them down would, which I may be legally entitled to do. I find nothing obnoxious about sparing a poor animal's life, even if it means he and others may have to face a certain amount of hardship. Ultimately, for me anyways, this was the best choice I felt was available to me.

I guess I better get started on fencing in my whole property when I get back home. Slowly but surely I am ending up like Bert Gummer. That's a shame, because there are a few really good people in my neighborhood, but a couple screw things up for all of us. Kinda reminds me of Baghdad. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

My home is at the fringe of Suburban/rural in South Central Washington.

I have tried to tell my neighbors about the problems with their dog, only my spanish is not that good. In the end we just smile at each other and walk away.

Oh yeah, here's the epitome of true irony to this whole topic:

I had to put one of my hunting dogs down because some idiot kid climbed over my fence into my yard (after being told not to) and got bit. I got sued, and my attorney said I could either pay the damages or put the dog down or fight the good fight in court. No dog I would own is worth going broke over, which was where this was headed, so I lost my dog.

How's that for payback? Fortunately my homeowner's policy covered the poor little hispanic kid's pain and suffering and sent his folks a check for about $3,000. Of course no one was interested in pursuing a trespass action, since the family left about a month after my insurance paid them off. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Edit:Ah, never mind.

By the way, thank you for serving our country.

As far as bad dogs go, I bought some bear spray from Cabelas last summer. While jogging I had a collie mix take off after me nipping at my heels. After hollering "get away" about a dozen times I shot a stream right into his face at about 4'. He retreated. The next day when he saw me coming he went the other way. No animal control, no dead dog, no bit heels. I highly recommend pepper spray--and if I were a woman I wouldn't leave home without it even if I were packing a .357 Magnum.

Regards, Vince

What's the matter Ben -- don't want to address my points?????

What you do is a legal tresspass in MY jurisdiction, because when you release a dong in a public way and it enters upon MY property you have constructively reached into my property and are liable for resulting damages. Su save, senor?

No problem. Let's try this:

In my jurisdiction, the DA has a different opinion. It isn't my dog, and I have no responsibility for it's actions when it is in the public domain. I am not releasing it, but relocating it, much the same as if I had run it off my land back onto the street. You are telling me that once I capture the dog, I am responsible for it? What if the dog manages to get into my back yard while I am at work, then can't get back out and it gets desperate, and when I come home and open the gate unkowingly, it escapes and runs down the road and bites a kid? Do you think I could be held liable for that too?

As for the what if with the calf, if the dogs are on my property and it is my calf or the calf is my responsibility, then I shoot the dogs, bringing a quick end to a bad situation. I don't like doing it, but I've had to do it before, and I am within my legal rights according to the DA at home.

I don't much tolerate any sort of threat on my property. It doesn't really matter from who or what. If possible, I will let the LE handle things, but if the condition warrants it, I am quite capable of taking care of most problems myself, or anyone else in the family for that matter.

Yes, I save very well. But this is now straying (pardon the pun) far away from the forum thesis, and I think each of us should decide for ourselves what is best. I only offered my two cents because that has been my experience and I know what works for me, but each of us has their own ideas. I reckon if we all thought the same way, the lawyers would be nearly out of business. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />