I say it becuase the next person I meet who can tell a 20 from a 12 by touch, in the dark, will be the first. We are talking home defense- if you don't store it loaded, as many jurisdictions require, that is what you will be doing. If you want to do something like stash your 20ga fodder on another shelf, that's great. I don't have that option, based on space, a lot of people don't. If the two are near eachother, the risk is there. And in my opinion, an unnessesary one. You compaired it to speeding, I'd compair it to Russian roullette.

Well, Josey, I'm not aware of any jursidiction where the use of reduced lethalityloads is illegal. I've also never heard of it being frowned on.

I suggest it because most people who use a shotgun do so in a suburban enviroment. A pellet of 00-buck can pass thought a lot of dry rock and plywood before it stops; rubber shot or bean bags, not very many layers. If you are thinking in terms of the slime's litigation, you will have a better chance with the jury becuase you can demonstrate that you were taking extra steps to not inflict perminant injury if possible.

And I challange anyone to take bean bag to the chest and stay standing. I am fully aware of the minimum employment range, and if I lived someplace were that wasn't possible, I wouldn't use a shotgun, it would be too bulky. Yes, you want 10-15 feet from the muzzle to the target with reduced-lethality kinetics, because closer than that, you frequently might as well be using lead. BUT, that does NOT change that you are taking the extra step. When you face the jury, you make utterly sure your lawyer asks you the range question. And you answer it honestly, and state that even with reduced lethality rounds, you would only fire if you were in fear of your life or those of others, the same as you would with regular ammo. You use exactly the same rules of engagement.

Law enforcement has different ROE in a riot, but if they shoot with a low lethality munition, it is becuase in thier personal opinion, enhnaced by thier training, that they or another are in imminent danger. And only then, or it is assault, as in no job, before the judge, found guilty, and thier new roommates know they were a cop.

I don't see that much of a difference. If others want to, I'd ask them about pepper spray and tasers. It greatly reduces any doubt of criminal liability, and the civil one is always there. But in that case, as I said, you have an edge. The 12 idiots on the jury are less likely to find against you if you can show you didn't want this drug fiend/rapist/murderer who broke into your house waving a machete at 3am to NOT have a chance to make a better life for himself.

And I never suggested that people use reloads, especially anything custom. Reload for hunting and target practice. If you get dragged into a court room, and plaintiff's exhibit B is your reloading bench, they will make it sound like you hand crafted the ultimate, high explosive, armour peircing, heat seaking, blood drinking, manslayer round, and the poor victem of your vigilante commando complex is alive only by miracle and buck fever on your part.

That isn't a theoretical, that is a real world situation. It has happened, and it will happen again.

However, you can buy, through a well stocked gun store, reduced recoil loads that were origionally developed for law enforcement. They have the recoil of a 20ga, and the payload of a 12ga. And they usually use a lower flash powder, so they don't dazzle you as badly. That kind of shop will usually have a lot of noise about police supplies, and cater mostly to law enforement, but if you ask for low recoil buckshot for home defense, they will very happily sell it to you. And you have a good person to ask questions of behind the counter.

Gee, duckear, hunts ducks...who'da thunk? But seriously, I've got to agree, my personal experience on birds and small game has been very few pellets in the part of the animal I'm gonna eat. If there were, I'd probably seriously consider a .22, but then, you might as well shoot over a spot-light from your car.

Troy

Where do you have to keep home defense guns unloaded in your HOME??? I want to know where NOT to move to.

Troy

I don't know about anywhere else, but the Guv recently let legislation pass through that says the authorities can't come after you for defending your home, in your home (Richie Daley nearly had a stroke, good for him)... whoever I need to deal with isn't going to survive to sue me.

Long live the N.R.A.

Troy

Yes, Susan, you are. I seriously doubt your uncle shot ducks on the wing with a rifle. And no, unless you are too close, a shotgun does not shread meat. As for imbedded pellets, eat carefully.

I assure you, most experienced gun people can tell the difference between a 12 and a 20 by feel, if they have any experience at all with both. For example, my thumb will go into the barrel of a 12; it won't go into a 20.

As others have said, it is usually illegal, not to mention unsportsmanlike, to hunt ducks with anything but a shotgun, and to hunt them any other way but on the wing (survival scenarios excepted of course.) As far as shot damage goes, in the old days of lead shot, you'd mostly get pass-thru. For about 20 years however the FWS has mandated steel (non-toxic) shot. Since steel is only about 75% as dense as lead, it penetrates comparatively poorly. I quit hunting ducks partly because of that.

But now there are new types of non-toxic shot which are denser than steel (Bismuth and tungsten.) I may have to take it up again.

Of course this only really concerns the hunting of waterfowl. None of this has anything directly to do with hunting pheasant, chucker, or other upland game. For the most part you can still use lead shot on these tasty critters, at least where I live.

Regards, Vince

Depends on where you are. Here in Vermont, it can happen, but I'll take a jury of old Vermonters over a bit of legislation any day. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LOL, I know the feeling. That's why I didn't take a job in Mass. There are a number of city and county-level jurisdictions that have stated that all firearms must be stored unloaded. And since it is illegal to discharge a firearm in those limits, unless you are on the range, on the line, it is illegal to have a shell in the chamber. DC, of course, some places in Maryland and Mass, probably others. Maybe Chicago and the greater New York City area, I don't know.