http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600143837,00.html

"The couple said their son was born prematurely and described him as immature and a little slow, although not mentally disabled."

I think it's important to remember that kids mature at different rates, both physically and mentally. With that in mind I'm inclined to cut the kid some slack.

What I'm wondering about are these Boy Scout camps. When they are learning rock climbing instead of gear prep and woodcraft I begin to question their value.

Regards, Vince

I cannot put my finger on it, but there is something strange about this whole story.

One interview I saw with the father, in which he said, his son and he spent a lot of time in the woods. I would have thought the father would have provided him with some previous guidance, other then just staying on the trail if lost.

Most of the post incident interviews with the family, the kid just did not respond in action and words, in the manner I would expect of a kid his age. Something about his behavior, raises the little red flag in the back of my small mind.

For whatever it is worth – just my two cents.

Pete

The first thing I thought of when I saw the child staring into space during the news conference was mild autism. Hopefully I am wrong.

Taken from CNN...

"He's probably dehydrated, sleep-deprived, definitely hungry," said Brennan's father, Toby. "With him being so young at 11, I don't think he's thinking about what he needs to do to survive because he's never been in that environment."

"Brennan's mother said the boy had a lot of outdoor experience. His father said the boy is shy and might not approach a stranger to confess he is lost."

"Brennan carried no food or water, and his family said he did not have a good sense of direction."

I am a little confused. The statements seem to contradict each other... "had a lot of outdoor experience" and yet "never been in that environment."

Thank goodness he was found. Time to recheck my son's day pack.

I think what we are dealing with here is (and forgive my politically correct terminology) is a "mentally handicapped" child and two parents that are not willing to describe him as such to the media. That would certainly explain a lot!

When people claim experience in something I am reminded of this story. A nieghbor of mine was 57 y/o, overwieght and smoked. His 'exercise' was standing in the shallow end of our community swimming pool with a beer in one hand, cigarette in the other and both eyes on the young ladies. One day he collapsed and quickly drowned. An autopsy found the obvious damage of his lifestyle. What the local newspaper reported, was he SWAM DAILY FOR HOURS and the drowning was unexpected. So, this father and son had lots of outdoor experience. But, experience in what? walking a designated trail? Cooking smoors and singing campsongs? You can shoot 1000 rounds of handgun ammunition weekly. But if you are missing the target 900 of those rounds you are no Ed McGiven <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Think? Vote? CLUE???... Look around, people (MANY of them) fitting that description have been voting for years now, 'course, you can't neccessarily blame them... when the only choices you have are between a clown and a fool (you decide which is which). If things don't change drastically, VERY soon, the greatest country on earth won't be worth living in. <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Troy

Something I learned trying to hire people - there is a world of difference between "ten years experience" and "one year experience ten times"

>>What I'm wondering about are these Boy Scout camps. When they are learning rock climbing instead of gear prep and woodcraft I begin to question their value.<<

rant on

I have had those sorts of concerns for years - ever since my eldest went to his first BSA summer camp. I worked for changes from within a unit. I worked for changes from within "the system" for three years as the Chairman of the Camping Committee. My eldest started a new program area and ran it, at great personal financial and time hardship for three years. I started asking to be replaced as Camping chair last fall and I finally have a replacement - after he gets back from Jambo <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I don't have much hope that it can be fixed. But let me back up and say the Boy Scouts is an absolutely outstanding concept and it really works - at the unit level. So that is where we will pour all of our efforts for the forseeable future.

So what's the problem with camps? Too many to cite, and nothing stands out as a linch pin. But a big part of the problem is how the whole professional structure is set up; the above-the-unit-level organizations and structure known as "BSA", etc. That seems to be impossible to fix. (Mind you, this is not a slam on the professionals themselves - there are many awesome professionals working as best they can within the framework).

This is a tiny thing, but one thing that truly irritates the fire out of me: Most of our annual budget is salary and benefits for professionals. Our single largest INCOME (eg profit) is summer camp. What's wrong with THAT picture???? It's not the COST that bothers me, it's what we DO with that income that bothers me. Too much professional staff - and too many of them have no scouting background and spend too much of their time trying to raise money that goes to pay them instead of supporting the boys and the people who try to bring the concept to life for the boys - where is the benefit to the boys? Again, overall a great bunch of folks, but this is not a jobs program.

Volunteers are a mixed blessing, as anyone who works with volunteers can attest to. <shrug> We can deal with all those things.

I have written here before that I am confident that our scouts can handle about anything tossed at them and have publically stated the same thing many times. They are a real mixed group socio-economically, family circumstances, parental involvement (or lack thereof), etc etc but they are a great bunch of lads. It's for them and the ones who follow after them that we stay involved.

We are seriously considering NOT going to a BSA camp next summer. We certainly will consider using BSA lands, but I'm working to sell the idea of doing an old-fashioned long-term camp on our own instead of this circus of BSA summer camp (it's NOT just our local camp - we've gone other places).

I went to BSA summer camp once or twice when I was a boy. I have only a couple of memories from those. The family vactions we took - and my dad was adament about a family vaction every year - were where I really learned most of my skills; they were like scouting is supposed to be. Guess I'd like to provide those sorts of experiences to the scouts in our unit. Our sons are now all Eagle scouts, in or starting college, so it's not for "us" that we want to do this; it's for all the boys.

If anyone feels critical of scouting, I challenge that person to do something productive by getting involved with a local troop. I know all the excuses for not getting involved, because I invented most of them myself. I wish I had been much more involved earlier in my eldest son's scouting experiences, but at least I was there with him the last couple of years of his time as a youth. Looking ahead, not back, we will do our best for present and future boys. It's not easy and it takes a huge amount of time.

I've lamented many times how most of the truly experienced outdoorsmen in this country are exceedingly selfish (as a group) - they don't share themselves with youth. Did you know that if BSA had not relented and allowed women to be Assistant Scoutmasters and Scoutmasters, the program would not exist today? Too few men get involved these days. That's a slam on our present day culture and personal "values", and it's a deserved slam. What a sad situation!

rant off

Your question is appropriate.

Regards,

Tom

You left out one- insurance. My brother was a camp counciler for years, and he was told constantly that the legal weenies said that this, that and the other thing couldn't be done. The other problem he saw was one we are familiar with- the "expert" who doesn't know his tukkus from a tree trunk. I don't know if I can say specifics because I wasn't part of those messes, but I will say that there was some really sketchy and just flat out wrong information told to kids.

Where I'm going to have a problem with BSA is, at least around here, it has very strong theological ties. Since I'm not Christian, I have a real problem with being told I have to pray to thier god. I bailed after the first "class" in basic survival gave the "stop-think...." drill as "stop-pray...". I would like to say that a lot of that was the Troop leadership, but I also know that publicly "heathen" leaders just don't seem to exist in this council. As a "pagan", I was told be several leaders in my brother's troop (different from mine) that even though I was wanted to help out, I was not to let the door hit me on the way out.