Alive and apparently in good health.

Yahoo News

Thats great news!

This is also more evidence that (IMHO) preparing a kit under the assumption that you'll be found in 72 hours is not enough and we should consider something more like 6 or 7 days to be safe. Of course I do realize that the flip side of this is that if you carry too much gear then you end up leaving it at home and are then prepared for zero days which we can all agree is not enough. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I disagree. If the scout had carried a small kit with whistle it wouldn't have taken four days to find him.

If the scout had been smart enough to carry a kit, he probably wouldn't have gotten lost.

We have no way to know that if he had a whistle that he would have been found any sooner.

We can't really speculate about anything. But, the one thing I will say is if he had some outdoor training like all scouts should before they set foot in the woods there would have been a greater chance of avoiding this situation. This is why all new scouts in my troop are taught basic survival, basic first aid, basic fire building, and basic use of woods related tools before they are allowed to go on overnight outings. They do go on day outings, however they are watched extremely carefully and the activities are more structured. I am glad though that he came out basically ok, that often doesn't happen.

It was my understanding that he wasn't even a scout...he had just come on the trip with a friend...hence the lack of training. Also, I think this situation provides more information for searchers than for us. He went uphill??? Well, that just blew their minds. Unbelievable...first rule...never assume. It would have probably only taken them several hours if they had looked both ways. I think they had enough volunteers.

I have read elsewhere that he was a Cub Scout and came to a Boy Scout function with an older (boy scout) friend.

According to the interview I heard when he was first found (I think it was the search coordinator, not sure anymore), the kid had seen the horses but was afraid of them so he didn't get closer.

1- If you can see horses and humans, odds are pretty good that rescue wistle will probably be heard.
2. Afraid of horses?!? What's up with that? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm afraid of horses ever since I saw that video of the guy getting chased by the pony with 5 legs that was floating around the net a while back. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My, oh my... <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

(CNN excerpt)

He had two thoughts going through his head all the time," she said. "Toby's always told him that 'if you get lost, stay on the trail.' So he stayed on the trail.

"We've also told him don't talk to strangers. ... When an ATV or horse came by, he got off the trail. ... When they left, he got back on the trail ."

Sorry, but... That makes me <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well I guess that whistle wouldn't make any difference then. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> LOL

What's this about Darwin awards . . .

Interesting tidbit on CNN about a half hour ago.
Soledad O'Brien was interviewing a guy from the National Parks Service...your typical not-very-enlightening rehash of what's already been known about the boy's time in the woods.
However, CNN made time in the interview for her to ask the guy about what people could carry to be found and survive if lost in the woods.
He mentioned a whistle, then said some other good things that could be easily carried include a flashlight or glowstick, a signal mirror, extra clothing/water/food, and perhaps Goretex. She said "so basically carry a big backpack?"
And he said no, basically most of this can be carried in your pockets, perhaps in the pockets of a Goretex coat tied around your waist.

Any of this advice sound familiar? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, he went on to say that other good advice is to plan out what family members will/should do in case of problems in the woods, and tell kids to stay in one place if lost, avoid getting wet/find shelter, or learn how to devise a shelter (he couldn't really go into much detail, but gave the example of getting under a rock overhang).

And if a kid hears a helicopter searching overhead, they should learn to find a clearing if possible, and make themselves large and visible, and move.

Overall, a lot more good info packed into one of these usually vague and pointless morning chats.

Bottom line for this incident - God looks after drunks, fools and little children ... most of the time, anyway. This lad was very, Very, VERY lucky. Remember, another Boy Scout that disappeared last year in the same general area has never been found.

Parents need to rethink, or at least expand on the old saw about avoiding strangers. Creating such a mindset may keep them safe from sexual predators, but as this incident shows makes for a xenophobic mindset. We have enough Boo Radleys casting shadows on porches. I was also dismayed the kid found solace in a electronic game on a rescuer's cellphone. This deux ex machina we communicate on is a marvel, but when it's blue ectoplasmic reality supercedes the songbirds outside I'll shoot it with my Colt <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bruce Schneider, a security consultant, has a good take on this:

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/06/talking_to_stra.html

Roger that on both counts, Chris. I look at the kids around me today, and I'm not sure if anything that isn't on thier computers is really real to them.

And we all know that no one lies on the web, don't we.

Lessee... take a variable level of detail mesh of a representative of the species, throw in some random variations in geometry, size and texture (of course we'll use normal maps and pixel shaders to achieve near photorealistic renders at interactive frame rates), stir in a reasonable flocking algorithm with appropriate environmental goals and influences (flock toward food, away from predators), display on multiple, floor to ceiling edge matched super high resolution projectors. Mix in some randomly selected song bird audio samples, and burn some pine scented candles....

Don't shoot the screens, that'll just make holes. Aim at the noisy boxes in the ceiling. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

These parents must be real mental midgets. They trained this kid so well that they've virtually induced paranoia. But if they think their "don't talk to strangers" mindset is going to prevent him from being molested, they didn't even get THAT right!

Someone needs to explain (in small words) to these cretins that most child molesters are known to their victims. Most molesters are family members, friends of the family, church members, sports coaches and others who have deliberately put themselves in places where they can find victims.

That tired-looking guy with the hat pulled low, wrinkled clothes and a 3-day growth of beard is probably the SAR volunteer who gave up his 3-day weekend to look for the idiot kid who was hiding from him 20 feet away.

But what's even worse, is that this kid is 11 years old and has never been taught to think. In 7 more years, he's going to be voting, and will be out in the big, bad world, and he won't have a CLUE!

Congratulations, Mr. & Mrs. Hawkins -- you've done a bang-up job of raising your kids! <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Sue

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600143837,00.html

"The couple said their son was born prematurely and described him as immature and a little slow, although not mentally disabled."

I think it's important to remember that kids mature at different rates, both physically and mentally. With that in mind I'm inclined to cut the kid some slack.

What I'm wondering about are these Boy Scout camps. When they are learning rock climbing instead of gear prep and woodcraft I begin to question their value.

Regards, Vince

I cannot put my finger on it, but there is something strange about this whole story.

One interview I saw with the father, in which he said, his son and he spent a lot of time in the woods. I would have thought the father would have provided him with some previous guidance, other then just staying on the trail if lost.

Most of the post incident interviews with the family, the kid just did not respond in action and words, in the manner I would expect of a kid his age. Something about his behavior, raises the little red flag in the back of my small mind.

For whatever it is worth – just my two cents.

Pete

The first thing I thought of when I saw the child staring into space during the news conference was mild autism. Hopefully I am wrong.

Taken from CNN...

"He's probably dehydrated, sleep-deprived, definitely hungry," said Brennan's father, Toby. "With him being so young at 11, I don't think he's thinking about what he needs to do to survive because he's never been in that environment."

"Brennan's mother said the boy had a lot of outdoor experience. His father said the boy is shy and might not approach a stranger to confess he is lost."

"Brennan carried no food or water, and his family said he did not have a good sense of direction."

I am a little confused. The statements seem to contradict each other... "had a lot of outdoor experience" and yet "never been in that environment."

Thank goodness he was found. Time to recheck my son's day pack.

I think what we are dealing with here is (and forgive my politically correct terminology) is a "mentally handicapped" child and two parents that are not willing to describe him as such to the media. That would certainly explain a lot!

When people claim experience in something I am reminded of this story. A nieghbor of mine was 57 y/o, overwieght and smoked. His 'exercise' was standing in the shallow end of our community swimming pool with a beer in one hand, cigarette in the other and both eyes on the young ladies. One day he collapsed and quickly drowned. An autopsy found the obvious damage of his lifestyle. What the local newspaper reported, was he SWAM DAILY FOR HOURS and the drowning was unexpected. So, this father and son had lots of outdoor experience. But, experience in what? walking a designated trail? Cooking smoors and singing campsongs? You can shoot 1000 rounds of handgun ammunition weekly. But if you are missing the target 900 of those rounds you are no Ed McGiven <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Think? Vote? CLUE???... Look around, people (MANY of them) fitting that description have been voting for years now, 'course, you can't neccessarily blame them... when the only choices you have are between a clown and a fool (you decide which is which). If things don't change drastically, VERY soon, the greatest country on earth won't be worth living in. <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Troy

Something I learned trying to hire people - there is a world of difference between "ten years experience" and "one year experience ten times"

>>What I'm wondering about are these Boy Scout camps. When they are learning rock climbing instead of gear prep and woodcraft I begin to question their value.<<

rant on

I have had those sorts of concerns for years - ever since my eldest went to his first BSA summer camp. I worked for changes from within a unit. I worked for changes from within "the system" for three years as the Chairman of the Camping Committee. My eldest started a new program area and ran it, at great personal financial and time hardship for three years. I started asking to be replaced as Camping chair last fall and I finally have a replacement - after he gets back from Jambo <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I don't have much hope that it can be fixed. But let me back up and say the Boy Scouts is an absolutely outstanding concept and it really works - at the unit level. So that is where we will pour all of our efforts for the forseeable future.

So what's the problem with camps? Too many to cite, and nothing stands out as a linch pin. But a big part of the problem is how the whole professional structure is set up; the above-the-unit-level organizations and structure known as "BSA", etc. That seems to be impossible to fix. (Mind you, this is not a slam on the professionals themselves - there are many awesome professionals working as best they can within the framework).

This is a tiny thing, but one thing that truly irritates the fire out of me: Most of our annual budget is salary and benefits for professionals. Our single largest INCOME (eg profit) is summer camp. What's wrong with THAT picture???? It's not the COST that bothers me, it's what we DO with that income that bothers me. Too much professional staff - and too many of them have no scouting background and spend too much of their time trying to raise money that goes to pay them instead of supporting the boys and the people who try to bring the concept to life for the boys - where is the benefit to the boys? Again, overall a great bunch of folks, but this is not a jobs program.

Volunteers are a mixed blessing, as anyone who works with volunteers can attest to. <shrug> We can deal with all those things.

I have written here before that I am confident that our scouts can handle about anything tossed at them and have publically stated the same thing many times. They are a real mixed group socio-economically, family circumstances, parental involvement (or lack thereof), etc etc but they are a great bunch of lads. It's for them and the ones who follow after them that we stay involved.

We are seriously considering NOT going to a BSA camp next summer. We certainly will consider using BSA lands, but I'm working to sell the idea of doing an old-fashioned long-term camp on our own instead of this circus of BSA summer camp (it's NOT just our local camp - we've gone other places).

I went to BSA summer camp once or twice when I was a boy. I have only a couple of memories from those. The family vactions we took - and my dad was adament about a family vaction every year - were where I really learned most of my skills; they were like scouting is supposed to be. Guess I'd like to provide those sorts of experiences to the scouts in our unit. Our sons are now all Eagle scouts, in or starting college, so it's not for "us" that we want to do this; it's for all the boys.

If anyone feels critical of scouting, I challenge that person to do something productive by getting involved with a local troop. I know all the excuses for not getting involved, because I invented most of them myself. I wish I had been much more involved earlier in my eldest son's scouting experiences, but at least I was there with him the last couple of years of his time as a youth. Looking ahead, not back, we will do our best for present and future boys. It's not easy and it takes a huge amount of time.

I've lamented many times how most of the truly experienced outdoorsmen in this country are exceedingly selfish (as a group) - they don't share themselves with youth. Did you know that if BSA had not relented and allowed women to be Assistant Scoutmasters and Scoutmasters, the program would not exist today? Too few men get involved these days. That's a slam on our present day culture and personal "values", and it's a deserved slam. What a sad situation!

rant off

Your question is appropriate.

Regards,

Tom

You left out one- insurance. My brother was a camp counciler for years, and he was told constantly that the legal weenies said that this, that and the other thing couldn't be done. The other problem he saw was one we are familiar with- the "expert" who doesn't know his tukkus from a tree trunk. I don't know if I can say specifics because I wasn't part of those messes, but I will say that there was some really sketchy and just flat out wrong information told to kids.

Where I'm going to have a problem with BSA is, at least around here, it has very strong theological ties. Since I'm not Christian, I have a real problem with being told I have to pray to thier god. I bailed after the first "class" in basic survival gave the "stop-think...." drill as "stop-pray...". I would like to say that a lot of that was the Troop leadership, but I also know that publicly "heathen" leaders just don't seem to exist in this council. As a "pagan", I was told be several leaders in my brother's troop (different from mine) that even though I was wanted to help out, I was not to let the door hit me on the way out.

Well, I guess that just proves what we emphasize on this board ... all the great gadgets & supplies won't help if you don't have the "mental equipment" -- experience, training, common sense, whatever you want to call it -- to use your tools effectively. As GoatRider says below, telling your child as an absolute rule "don't ever talk to strangers" can really backfire if the kid doesn't have the judgment to adjust his/her behavior when the circumstances change. (And if Master Hawkins doesn't yet have the necessary judgment, then his parents should have exercised their own good sense and not permitted him to go camping without them until he demonstrates it.)

But like Bee, I definitely had to grin when I heard that the kid actually got off the trail when the SAR folks came close to him!

Well put, Sue. My sentiments exactly. I friend of mine got quite angry with me when I commented that the kid is too stupid to live. Should have left hik out there.

Mellow people,please! The mark of a caring society is not throwing inferior babies off a cliff like ancient Sparta, but honouring the uniqueness and often unseen or imagined potential in every individual regardless of how clumsy creation cobbled them together. We all get frustrated with stories such as this. Just don't let your rapid heartbeat march in step with hobnailed jackboots.

Good points all. I guess what I'm the most critical of is it seems like every year we are having a scout go missing here in Utah who carries no gear. It inevitably ends up that they were at a camp doing everything except camping. They should not set foot outside of city limits without a knife, a PSK, and the knowledge to use them. (I'm aware that I'm preaching to the choir here but at least I feel better <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.)

Regards, Vince

Our scouts carry - and use - what we call "Ready Packs" or "Be Prepared Packs". They do not show up for anything without them - some even carry them to non-scouting functions. It's a big deal to me and to our scouts. (Like many of us here, they tend to carry more junk, er, gear than they strictly need - that's more of a struggle for me than them not carrying the right things.) Their gear is far from perfect/ideal/complete, but they have the basics covered. I try to issue them maps of some sort before every trip, which can be a real PITN here in the poorly-mapped MidWest.

Now go to summer camp or a Camporee. See the scouts with day packs? They're from our troop (and a couple of scouts from other troops who have camped with us and "got religion"). A few younger scouts in other troops may be wandering around with some archaic facsimile of a "desert canteen" until they get razed out of it by older scouts, and a few others will have a water bottle on a sling.

What does the Boy Scout Handbook stipulate a scout should have on him on EVERY outing? The "Scout Outdoor Essentials". Should we run a formal long term camp or council or district event and ignore that? Every place I have toured/visited/been does and the folks in charge - professionals and volunteers - either scoff or get a deer-in-the-headlights look when I try to discuss it. What's wrong with that picture!!!??? Pardon my army expression, but I believe in "train-as-you-fight"... there ought to be a less militant expression for scouts that expresses the same sentiment and it should be the adjunct to "Be Prepared". This, and similar issues, drives me up the wall about scouting in general. I have concluded that these things are unsolvable except at the unit level, which goes back to my "get involved with a troop" challenge.

BTW, every week at closing I ask for a current events synopsis. The boys have caught on that, in the context of scout meetings, I am interested in stories of lost hikers, community disasters around the world, cultural upheavals, etc etc. Collectively they amaze me - they voluntarily offer well-thought out opinions on the situations and point out the good and bad. I didn't even have to ask about the topic of this thread, and they tossed in that this is "the same place" that a lad went missing from recently (the unfound lad) and discussed the similarities on their own - their conclusions were 1) Buddy system and 2) Ready Packs. I'm not sure how well they translate that to themselves, but it seems to be worthwhile to spend 2-3 minutes on those topics once a week.

I'm going to go outside now and get some hot-weather exercise or the little rats will run me into the dirt at camp... gotta walk the talk.

Regards,

Tom

All sorts of things can happen with kids and it's very hard to get the full story out of them for multiple reasons.

We had a little boy go missing in my neighborhood back when I was a kid. We searched for him for a day and he was later fould sleeping soundly in a pumpkin patch, I kid you not.

It turns out a few days later he had a seizure at home and ended up sleeping that one off too. The little guy had seizures and just happened to have his first while nobody was watching.

The point being there was no logical process involved in his getting lost nor deciding to sleep for several hours in the neighbors vegitable garden. Where else do you take a nap when you're five? Mac

Can we just leave it at "The gene-pool needs more chlorine", Chris???

Troy

Tom, if we had someone like you this council, I might have stayed around. Thank the Light there is still someone who is leading scouts who actually reads the manuals. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Do your boys know just how lucky they are?

I read many of Tom's stories about his scouts and every time I think "too bad this is the exception rather than the rule". What ever happened to the "always be prepared" motto? Seems like Tom's scouts are the only ones.

We must remember, all of us have and continue to do stupid things, at least know I have and will likely to continue to do so. It is not the fault of the child, if he was not provided the appropriate guidance or if he or she has some minor or major developmental disability preventing him or her from taking the most appropriate course of action in a particular situation. If, as I suspect, Brennan has some developmental or emotional disability, he should not be prevented from enjoying and learning about the outdoors, but must do so under closer supervision or with a different form of instruction or guidance.

Being associated with Girl Scouts for the past 15 years, I am all too well familiar with parents who fail to provide the Leaders/Assistants with adequate health information (physical, emotional and mental) regarding their child in fear that they will be negatively labeled. In many cases having this information and a caring and wise Leader will allow for changes to accommodate or present information in a different manner. Thus allowing the child to be a participant in beneficial activities and can be done so, safely.

Pete

I used to think the Darwin Awards were funny, until someone I knew collected one a few years back.

He wasn't a close friend, but he was a good guy - highly intelligent, with a well-paid job, did a lot of volunteer work, didn't make trouble. It's just that one night he had a bit too much to drink and bet his friends he could climb down the inside of the garbage disposal chute in his high-rise apartment building. He died on the way to hospital in the wee hours of the morning.

When I saw my female boss break down and sob openly on the telephone, and then have to break the news to the rest of us, I decided the Darwin Awards weren't that funny after all.

There seem to be two lines of thought in this discussion. On the one hand, the kid is an idiot for not knowing any better. On the other hand, the parents were idiots for assuming he would know better. The danger is that those who assume the first explanation are in danger of assuming that *their* kids would, of course, react more intelligently, regardless of their level of training.

Hiding from rescuers is a very common reaction among lost children of a certain age group. Unfortunately, most parents - including, I suspect, those on this forum who are laying blame on either young master Hawkins or his parents - tend to assume that *their* children would react much more intelligently than other folks' in such a situation. Fortunately, most of those parents will never find out how wrong they are.

I studied up on SAR techniques last year when we prepared a 3-day familiarization course for a local youth group (sort of a merit badge thing.) There's a lot of scientific research that goes into organizing a search.

SAR personnel have to make certain assumptions. If a lost child walks less than a mile from where he/she was last seen, the searchers have an area of 3.14 sq. mi. to cover. With 100 trained searchers, this will take approximatley 10 hours to search properly. If he walks less than 2 miles, they now have an area of 12 sq. mi. to cover. If he walks up to three miles, the searchers have an area of over 28 sq.mi. to cover. Regardless of how many volunteers they have, it's impossible to cover every square inch where the kid might have gotten to, so they bring in a lot of statistical analysis and applied psychology to a search.

Most people who get lost, given a choice between going uphill or downhill, will go downhill. Therefore, those areas will be given priority. If that search turns up empty, the co-ordinators have to make a decision - did we miss him, in which case we should search the area again? Or did he do something unexpected, like travel uphill, in which case we should search in a new area.

It takes 100 trained searchers approximately 3 hours to search a single square mile. To search 28 sq. mi. in a day, you would need close to 1000 volunteers. And sending 1000 untrained volunteers out into the wilderness would be courting disaster - not only would they be likely to miss vital clues, they might inadvertantly destroy evidence that a trained searcher might be able to use, they would destroy the scent (making it impossible to use search dogs), and they might very well end up getting lost themselves.

My understanding is that the very last thing a professional or trained volunteer SAR team will do is to send a bunch of volunteers out into the woods to see what they can find, simply because the vast majority of those volunteers would be in danger themselves, and wouldn't know what to look for. (In some cases, well-meaning volunteers schooled in "leave no trace" backpacking have picked up candy wrappers thinking they were being ecologically friendly, not realizing that the "garbage" they were "cleaning up" was a vital clue to the lost person's whereabouts.)

I am not going to comment on the boy, since he appears to have been someone with abnormally limited capabilities. Similarly, his family may been doing their utmost.

The buddy rule is normally in force at most scout activities. A rigorous application of it might have prevented the boy from getting lost. Also, if the boy did indeed have unusually reduced capabilities, he really would have been helped by close supervision.

An 11 yo boy might have easily had anywhere from 0 to 1 1/2 yrs as a Boy Scout. A brand new scout is not reasonably expected to be knowledgable about the outdoors. Also children mature at different rates.

I think the boy and his parents need to be cut some slack. His knowledge, skills, abilities, and equipment are certainly not what we would want, but fortunately he survived and in good shape.

Incidentally, in the absence of a lot more detailed facts, I don't think we should regard this case as reflecting badly on Scouting.

John

Tom,

Hi,

I agree with you that Scouting has picked up a lot of tawdry and excess baggage. I commend you for your work to remove it. I am afraid I have simply resigned myself to accept it as inevitable in a large institution. I also agree that it is a the troop level where Scouting does its best work.

We just went to our first Camporee where the boys were checked on their equipment and their ability to use it proficiently in major outdoor skills. This is the first time I have seen them seriously tested. It was a very good and pleasing experience. It resulted from our small district consolidating its camporee with that of larger district. The latter obviously takes its scouting skills seriously. I am going to try to ensure that we continue to merge our camporees.

What do your boys carry in their ready bags and how do you induce them to continue carrying the gear?

I really like your discussion of current events as a standard item in your meeting agenda. I think we will start doing that as well.

Thanks,

John

I don't know a damn thing about kids, but when I was 11 I had my own horse, and had been taught enough to go miles and miles on my own. I won't say I never had any problem, but I always got back on my own. If I had a kid, I would expect to teach him enough to do the same.

Do like our old Scoutmaster did years ago - took us out for an overnighter in perfect weather without any other comforts than a canteen full of water. When everyone was cold and miserable by 2am; he then showed us how to make fire by friction, fire by flint&steel, and fire by battery/steel wool. Once the fires were going, he broke out the stash of s'more fixin's and we had a great time. Everyone slept fairly well by the fire and were all anxious to learn how to build a proper shelter and boil up some more fresh water the next morning.

After that night, he had no problems with Scouts not having proper gear on their person. There were Camillus or Ulster Scout knives and Marble's or Everdry matchsafes on every belt. Most had pockets or pouches stuffed full of other possibles, too...

M

I agree with John Baker. Every young child and their parents can learn something from this experience. The boy and his parent's could've done better, but I can't see myself being anything other than happy that this boy was found. Having taught children around his age, I know how I would feel if one of them went missing.

I do, however, resent his parents falling back on his being born premature for making mistakes. I was 3 months premature, born weighing 1.5 pounds, and almost blind. I still found my way here!

>>We just went to our first Camporee where the boys were checked on their equipment and their ability to use it proficiently in major outdoor skills.<<

Very cool! Good luck with that - see Sarge's comments about his experience as a scout - that kind of thing, with many variations, works. I've had the pleasure of putting together winter survival training a couple of times here for the scouts and every scout that has gone through that with me is a real trooper - and real believers in being prepared. (I had their pads and sleeping bags brought out to the site later, before they settled down for the night). Things like that can be really exciting for the boys, especially here in the seemingly benign and placid MidWest. Those of y'all who have close access to Federal Lands and wilderness have quite an advantage - we practically have to fabricate our situations in fantasy.

As for what we require the boys to carry - the scout outdoor essentials (I don't lay on hard about sunscreen). The only thing we require in addition to that is non-aerosol insect repellant for 3/4 of the year. When they first come to us, I start right away with them. Most of them get a 2nd class requirement checked off by me before they pass muster with the SM on joining requirements - the personal FAK. In any event, they have to accumulate the essentials and go over them with me, etc. We split small wood with our knives, make cotton balls & vasoline, learn how to use matches and FC rods, build fires, etc. - tell-show-do stuff and mostly I coach the older boys thru that so they are teaching the newbies instead of me, but that does not always work out. I help out a little here and there with inexpensive bits and pieces, and ParamedicPete has generously equipped two needy scouts (one with invisible parents AND poor; the other merely poor).

I guess there's other bits and pieces - I all but require them to carry a small repair kit and most of them have one that they assembled under my supervision. And boys can be real gear freaks, collecting all sorts of stuff. Oh - I make them carry a blade in the pack if they don't have the Toten' Chip yet, and they may only get it out with permission from an adult until then (or if an older scout is teaching them Toten' Chip)

I don't actually REQUIRE them to have a canteen cup or stainless Nalgene cup, nor do I require them to have a small inexpensive stove (pop can, esbit, etc), but just about all of the 2nd year and older scouts seem to aquire something reliable to heat water with. I've been derilict on the topic of water purification, despite having had to do that real-world for myself most of my adult outdoors life. My rationale - or poor excuse, I guess - is that surface water in this part of the country is sure to be full of agricultural chemicals and in many places, farm animal waste. But it's the chemicals that irk me - I'm just not up for teaching these youngsters wierd stuff like expedient activated charcoal filtering and frankly, I don't think it's important here. But that shortfall is irksome - I have to think about it some.

Anyway, we really only require basic, common sense stuff.

How do we induce them...? Heck, I don't know, John - I expect them to and they comply. I never yell at them or anything. It pleases me that they do this, and I let them know that it pleases me. I brag about them where they can overhear me. I'm disappointed (lightheartedly) if one forgets, but that's pretty rare. They're just kids - it's my job, difficult as it is for me, to act grownup <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Look, it's simple: The BSA motto is "Be Prepared... (...for anything)". Make a little adventure for them, let imaginations work, let boys be boys, and it all fits together. Not perfectly - but it works well enough for me.

It was a hot bike ride up the hill from the river today for this old desk jockey, so my brain's prol fuzzed up. I'm sure you can figure out something that works for your troop if you think it's worthwhile. Meanwhile, you've got an Eagle ceremony to participate in - enjoy the voyage, Eagle Dad.

Tom

That sort of thing can be the greatest fun when it's done well like that and the cool thing is that the kids LEARN useful stuff without even thinking about it.

I've got to toss out one thing that has been "bugging" me for the last few years - ticks. I never had a tick on me all my growing up years here. I go away at 18, spend a career in the Army, retire back here, and OMG! We've got some sort of ecological spasm going on here - dunno if it's a cyclical thing with a long period or if it's an eco problem, but it's nasty to be warm-blooded around here and be out anywhere. One of our dogs already tests positive for Lyme, and they go nowhere that we don't go. Last backpacking trip, despite frequent applications of DEET, wife scrounged 4 off me when we got back and I got 7 off her - and we were flicking the little buggers off us constantly, DEET or not. I'm now resigned to having to permethrin my clothes (thought I was done with that when I left Africa). That's expensive and I doubt that I can convince many parents to do it.

I slept out on the ground lots of times as a youth and sure as heck spent a lot of time wandering ravines, woods, creeks, etc. Never had a tick on me - I was an adult before I even saw one. This is wierd.

Oh, well. Winter is my favorite time to camp anyway...

Randjack,

Your own upbringing sounds like an excellent way to raise children. It is surprisingly similar to my own experience and the upbringing we have tried to provide our own children. However, it appears far beyond what the subject boy could handle given his own seeming immaturity. Anyway, that is my remote read on his situation.

Regards,

John

Mike,

I like that technique. I wouldn't mind trying something like with our troop this summer.


Tom,

In looking over your paraphernalia, I realize one thing we have neglected is the light stoves. I think I've found our next theme after we finish our map and compass work. I also need to work on my motivational skills.

I'm afraid to even think about that Eagle Court until he finishes up all of his post-project paperwork and gotten all of his tributes and trinkets. We haven't even started on his book yet. After that, I'll kick back and start dreaming. Fortunately he is diligent about those things. I imagine our ceremony will come this fall.

Guys, thanks a lot for the ideas.

John

Me too. My wife and I laughed at that. The kid behaved moronically.

I heard his dad talk about "stranger danger" with no mention of any exceptions. Idiot.

Then I sang "Secret Agent Man," but substituted "Stranger Danger."

The dad needs to be spanked.

-- Craig

The bug problem's usually worse after a light winter, some of the problem may have to do with the resurgence of wildlife, other than that, I'm out of theories... although, ticks tend to be heavier around paths/roadways, CO from passing air-burners (us, other animals, and yes, cars) tend to draw them there, tall grass/weeds make it easier for them to hitch a ride than short-cut lawns. That's about all that comes to mind right now, good luck avoiding the creepy little buggers, when ever I find one, I tend to have the "creeping itch" for about 2 days, can't stand them either.

Troy

Tom,

Would you post a list of what you have your kids carry?

Tom said they carry the scout essentials plus some extra.
I know the scout outdoor essentials are as follows:
Pocket knife
First Aid Kit
Extra Clothing
Rain Gear
Water Bottle
Flashlight
Trail food
Matches and fire starters
Sun protection
Map and Compass

That dosn't seem like much to ask.

Yep, that's the short list found on page 207 of the 11th edition of The Boy Scout Handbook. Before and after that page are brief and informative enough descriptions/discussion of each of the items, plus some discussion of the major alternatives for some items, such as different raingear types. I would add that the book also says to carry these things in a daypack or fanny pack ("bum pack" to our cousins who speak a similar language).

They all add a BSA Hot Spark, either a small or regular Altouds tin full of cotton balls impregnated with vasoline (most also have about a tablespoon of extra vasoline tucked in one corner), sealed with ranger bands, three pieces of fat wood about fat-pencil thick and 3-4" long (and the smart ones pre-split one of those into tooth-pick diameters). Some also carry a tin of char cloth that doubles as a charring tin. They all have a small sewing kit, and some have expanded that a little into a proper repair kit. Many carry a small stove (Esbit or pop can) and those that do also carry a US-issue canteen cup, a Nalgene bottle canteen cup, or (a few) a Sierra cup. Some of them are starting to carry a gas stove (not gasoline), but I'm extremely non-committal about that in a Ready Pack, because it starts kicking up the bulk, weight, and cost. (OTOH, I'm about to require a windscreen for the stove owners, which costs little or nothing and really ups the effectiveness of an Esbit or pop can stove a lot) Many of them have an additional FC rod of some sort (the mag-bar + FC combo is slightly popular, even tho I have little use for it myself). Several carry a small sharpening stone that has never been used oiled. Oh - a sit pad. Some of them forget to transfer the sit pad from backpack to Ready Pack but that corrects itself quickly if the ground is wet and/or cold - I don't fuss over it. Sit pads range from an odd scrap of sleeping pad to a cut-to-pad-and-stiffen the old bookbag to hand-sewn coated ripstop nylon covered batting (cute, but not my favorite) to a USPS Tyvek envelope stuffed with a couple of layers of corrugated cardboard and sealed shut. Umm... cordage! They all are supposed to keep 4ea 8'-12' lengths of either 550 cord or braided polyester cord, but those seem to be "consumable" at this age, so... as long as a Scout has at least one hank, I don't do much more than remind them and frown a little. Ummm - homemade flat pack of duct tape, about 8' of tightly rolled orange plastic surveyor's tape - OMG, I almost forgot the most important item: TP in a ziplock! I swear... this all reminds me it's time to have the PLC plan a meeting again to build/re-build the contents. A lot of the scouts also have a self-assembled Altoids PSK, and that includes a cheat sheet. Oh - I include the Handbook as part of the required carry, as well as a pencil and paper. Most scouts also have an orange BIC and other useful gear stowed in pockets and kits.

I allow - encourage, actually - those who have an acceptable fixed blade to carry that in the pack whenever we are NOT going to a BSA camp. They are, to a boy, extremely good about asking my permission BEFORE they toss one in, and they ALL bring them to me for inspection and OK (not my rule - they just do that). That has cost me more than a few hours of stealthy sharpening and sheath repairing - oh, even filing, polishing, etc... some of the knives they bring in are... formerly ridden hard and put away wet, if you know what I mean.

I allow a small folding saw - I am frequently tempted to simply procalim "OK - you can carry any pocket knife you want as long as it's Victorinox, has a saw blade, and is no more than 5 layers thick..." - but I digress. Waves and Gerber multi tools are not uncommon with older scouts who plan ahead with parental gift requests.

At one time I gave every scout an emergency space blanket, so about 2/3 carry those - I probably will put that on the list, as well as a 55 gal trash bag, but I need to purchase more - too hard/expensive for them to get just one otherwise.

I don't require a whistle, but I WILL require that for trips in remote areas. If you don't know why I don't require whistles, you haven't been around a bunch of wound-up 12 year olds... YMMV, and if we were anywhere close to places wilder, I would reconsider. Feel free to criticize.

When my wife & I started using Camelbak Ridge Runners for our Ready Pack, it got expensive for some of the parents, so we made a point of NOT carrying those everytime for about a year, and I think the hydration pack mania has cooled off to a simmer for now...

These things are laid out in a handbook-sized supplement we give every scout when they join, and it surely reflects my personal predjudices, despite my efforts to be objective. Time to revise that again, I suppose.

[color:"red"] ON TO THE PFAK [/color]

The short list of the Personal FAK is found on page 289:

"Carrying a few first aid items on hikes and campouts will allow you to treat scratches, blisters, and other minor injuries, and to provide initial care for more serious emergencies. Everything will fit in a self-sealing plastic bag. Get in the habit of taking along your personal first aid kit whenever you set out on a Scout Adventure."

Adhesive bandages - 6
Sterile gauze pads, 3" x 3" - 2
Adhesive tape - 1 small roll
Moleskin, 3" x 6" - 1
Soap - 1 small bar
Antiseptic - 1 small tube
Scissors - 1 pr
Latex Gloves - 1 pr
Mouth-barrier device - 1
Plastic goggles or other eye protection - 1
Pencil and paper - 1 each

Hmmm. Well, here's the deal with THAT list: They have to bring all that in (or equivalent, like 4x4 or vinyl gloves) and go over it with me in detail, because that is a Second Class requirement. Then we make some changes:

o Drop the scissors if regular knife has functional scissors
o toss latex gloves and add 2pr nitrile gloves (I get them on sale at local Harbor Freight)
o Blood stoppers - I handed out a US Military trauma dressing until I ran out; now they stuff 2-4 maxi-pads in a ziplock.
o I let them know that if they don't want to carry bulky & fragile goggles, it's OK with me
o pencil & paper stay - it's separate from the to-be-used ones in the Ready Pack
o at least 70 cents in quarters and dimes
... and I allow a few additional items, like vetwrap, burn pads, etc. Some add, some don't. I don't want this too massive - that's stuff that should be in a patrol-level FAK, whereas this is have-it-with-you-all-the-time stuff.

Except for two with occasional mild asthma attacks, none of our current scouts are on meds. One has some very mild food allergies (we ALL know about the allergies, boys included), none are allergic to stings, all are allowed to take aspirin, etc. A few of the boys carry some OTC analgesic (Tylenol or aspirin), but when I catch them with it, I have a chat with them and parent to satisfy myself - no problems to date. Boys with medical concerns are a reality in most troops and I'm not going to get into that here other than to say that it is a hell of a sticky legal situation to put us poor Scouters in and we do the best we can with that - best for the boys, that is.

I DRILL them that this is their PERSONAL FAK - if they come across a "wounded" buddy, they patch him up with HIS PFAK and do NOT use their own on someone else UNLESS the injured person has nothing. This kit is primarily for THEM to use on THEMSELVES. They really get it and that's exactly how it plays out when someone finger carves himself or whatever.

I, of course, carry WAY too much additional stuff because... because I guess I'm an idiot. Our scouts collectively do just fine, and that's what it's all about. They range from 10 1/2 to 17 yo. I don't consider any of the current crop to be seasoned outdoorsmen - they're all a bunch of urban MidWest kids and there's only so much I can squeeze into the curriculum - still, they are orders of magnitude ahead of their non-scout counterparts.

Hope that answers your questions.

Regards,

Tom

Just a thought: just because none of them have allergies today doesn't mean they won't have one tomorrow. Allergies can show up at any time in one's life, after any number of previous exposures. There have been people who have been stung by bees (etc) a hundred times without problems, then it happens for the 101st time and they have a severe reaction.

If you have a doctor friend, you might ask what the best thing to do in that case would be.

Sue

I am impressed, truly. Good on you, mate.

It would not be inappropriate for Tom to carry an epinephrine self injector. Maybe two sizes, for differing body mass since he has such an age range.

I would not do it w/o a Rx and a letter from the doc attesting to the instruction he has been given concerning its use.

Virtually every state has a "good samaritan" statute shielding one from criminal and civil liability. And, while release forms are not worth the paper they are written upon, it would not hurt to get a parent to sign something whereby they acknowledge having been informed that emergency treatment may be necessary, and that neither the BSA nor the coucellor is responsible for bad outcome so long as the treatment is undertaken in good faith. Releases/waivers are easy to pierce, but what they are good for is forcing someone to acknowledge that they were advised of a particular risk.

In my old troop we didn't go real deep into what the boys carried exactly, however before they would be allowed to go camping they would go through a basic woodsman's tools, firebuilding, first aid, and survival course. We would try to keep it as simple and basic as possible, as we found some boys it takes a whole meeting to teach using a BSA flint/steel to start a fire. We did however require a basic survial/first aid kit be carried almost at all times. The biggest thing is to look over what they carry and make sure they know how to use it properly. We would inspect the kids survival/first aid kits often, check their knives often, ect. You find that some boys really get into it, while others could basically care less. So you have to go over everything as often as possible, both gear and how to use it. It always seemed to me when you told them you have to carry something they never would carry it, so you have to make it fun to carry and use.

So Tom,

No whistles, huh!

I feel vindicated from my pangs of doubt and guilt. I haven't stressed them in my troop either. While I have addressed the issue, I haven't pushed it. My theory is that the more serious scouts will probably carry them and cause no trouble. The impish and more troublesome, will, in their own casualness about everything, tend not to have one more potential engine of my destruction. I suppose I would press the point for an outing where it might be indicated. God has heretofore protected me from that eventuality.

I know I am a something of a hypocrit because I have required my own sons to carry a SAK with a tethered Hot Spark, Maglite Solitaire (any upgrades must be able to survivere the likely trip through the washing machine), and Fox Mini-40. However, my own sons can be and actually are well controlled (by themselves). Anyway that issue arose before I became Scoutmaster. While the use of the Solitaire lanyard is somewhat inconvenient in some uses of the knife, it absolutely guarantees the presence of the other tools.

Incidentally Tom, what is your reservation about sun block?

Best scouting wishes always,

John

To the best of my knowledge, no BSA, Red Cross, or other imprimatur applies to invasive procedures, which I presume would include an injection of epinephrine. Therefore, a scoutmaster (or assistant) would appear to be on his own in the legal world, not a pleasant thought to contemplate. Please understand, I am not saying that such an injection would not be useful; and I am certainly not saying that Tom would not practically be the appropriate person to administer it. But in the legal arena, he'd be naked on thin ice. In my own situation, only one scout in my troop might benefit. Since he is my youngest son, <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> the contraindication does not apply. One caveat, I've been a defense attorney a whole lot longer than I've been a plaintiff's attorney. So I do acknowledge my own cautiousness.

I agree that releases and waivers require parents and guardians to acknowledge risks and authorizations. They also dissuade parents and guardians from lawsuits. Furthermore, they may be upheld by the courts.

Randjack, Thanks. It really is nice to have another lawyer in this forum. You just can't have a good legal disagreement without another good legal argument. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

John

Yeah, a fanny pack could be something very different on the other side of the ocean...

Susan,

A very good point!

In a previous life I had fairly extensive training in lots of potentially useful skills like starting IVs, suturing, etc. One of the items I was trained on and carried for many years was a Hollister Anakit (no longer made - see http://tinyurl.com/82def for some interesting alternatives).

I have seen, on three occasions in truly remote parts of the continent, when the swift and proper use of an Anakit unquestionably saved a life - and we were unable to get a medevac on two of those occasions due to weather (the third one was medevaced about an hour after we radioed for it). I did not personally administer the treatment on any of those occasions, but rather directed the whole episode.

After I retired from the Army it got expensive to keep all the 'scripts current. And BSA totally freaks at the mere thought of a mortal possessing an Epipen. What I do and don't carry just in case is going to remain occult.

Regards,

Tom

John,

Good deal with the knives etc.

IIRC, I didn't express reservations about sunblock - poor choice of words if that's what I wrote. What I mean is that I don't regard it as very important here (this from a guy who has had the inside of his nostrils sunburned from snowfield reflections...). The bug juice is more important to me. The majority of the boys get brown as a nut each spring while I'm still blinding pilots with the reflection off my legs. Sunblock is extremely important to some people, of course, and it's probably a smart thing for all of us to use. I just don't make a fuss about it if it's not in the pack.

YiS,

Tom

Pleased to meet you! I've been plaintiffs' PI for about 20 years with a little bit of defense work sprinkled in -- which, interestingly enough, was often defense of mass tort cases.

In one of my other lives, we kept epi pens and rattlesnake so-called antidote on hand at ranch HQ. Thank god we never had to use the venon antitox - in those days, it could be worse then the bite. The epi pens got used a few times, as did vitamin K injectable we kept for my Dad who was on Coumadin anticoagulant.

I would not like to be responsible for a bunch of urchins. Probably like you, I know just enough medicine to be dangerous.

randjack,

Hi!

I didn't actually go enthusiastically seeking the job of scoutmaster. In fact, I declined it for over a year. Eventually it became advisable to keep the troop (and my own 2 boys) on track. However I have eventually come to like it.

I have enjoyed three particularly encouraging successes:

1. I have been able to redirect our somewhat nontraditional troop into more conventional modes.

2. We have changed the focus of our meetings so as to tremendously upgrade our basic scouting skills.

3. One boy was the perfect enfant terrible. I'd have sworn he was out get me. We have worked on his behavior using positive and negative conditioning. He is now fairly well self-disciplined.

Regards,

John

Brennan Hawkins graduated from High School today, planning to pursue a career in the Park Service inspired by a childhood mishap. M eanwhile, the ETS forum submitted this thread to the Guiness Book Of Records. Said tread is 15 years old, contains 18,523 posts and is still going strong, surpassing even Whats the best knife? for the most poplular subject <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />