I know Tom Brown loves his wool colthing, but is fleece the new wool? Light weight, dries out easily, does it still insulate when wet?

TRO

Overall, natural materials are still a winner for any trip where you can't wash your clothes for a day or two. Ibexwear makes really great synthetic/wool blend clothes... the best of both worlds in my opinion.

www.customwoolenmills.com/index.htm Bill will answer just about any question about wool you can come up with. The first thing to remember is that not all wool products are the marvelous stuff you see a square jawed arctic explorer wearing replete with canadian pattern smoking pipe. There are various grades, just like tea, maple syrup and gasoline. Wool ideally is virgin with the natural fibers still intact. You start mixing in nylon for wearability, wools processed in various proceedures for manufacture or recycled, fabric wieght and the various twists for yarn and even it's origonal wearer might say BAAAAAAAAD! There are also various felts, boiled yarns like the marvelous Dachstein and many hybrid blends. Pile clothing has come a long way from the primer grey coloured stuff that pilled ( shedding fuzz balls) and made unwashed gymn socks smell like pot-pourri satchets in comparison. The product is pretty uniform and honestly outperforms it's woolen equal by a small margin. Wool remains the safest material around fire. I've never been comfortable with plastics after catching two horses running down the PCH during the Malibu Burn with burning stallblankets and melted halters. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Wool for me has one additional 'use.' I have an Aran sweater with my family pattern. I was so proud of it until this character in a San Francisco pub explained each family pattern was to help I.D. drowned fishermen that had been in the water awhile.

I would agree. Pile is fine as long and your are not going to be anywhere near a open flame. Unfortunately that presents quite a problem if you need to start a fire. All the pile pullovers I own and have taken camping/hiking have at least a half-dozen burn holes where sparks hit me (most of the time without me noticing). IMHO nothing beats wool socks, period. Any benefits of pile over wool are not worth the risk with regard to tops and bottoms. That being said the idea of wool underware does not particularly appeal to me, so maybe I am a hypocrite.

"...the idea of wool underware does not particularly appeal to me, so maybe I am a hypocrite."

What Chris said is true about quality in wool, and really applies when it comes to underwear. I used to have some, made of primo wool, and they were W O N D E R F U L ! ! ! So soft, so warm, so light, and even comfy when the sun came out unless I was really working up a sweat, and even then it was just too warm, not scratchy.

VIRGIN wool is wool that came right from the sheep (we aren't talking about what the sheep do at night), and has long, smooth fibers. Reused wool (the word "virgin" is conspicuously missing) is where you get into itchy, scratchy trouble, apparently because the fibers are now shorter and stubby and stick out. It's the difference between a mass of long, silky hair under your chin while you're dancing and the stubbly stuff stuck under your collar after you get a haircut.

Fleece is just plastic. Suitable for some uses, makes you sweat the rest of the time. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Sue

While expensive, there are a number of nomex fleece products available, if fire resistance of concern.

Bulwork Fleece Sweatshirt towards the bottom of the page.

Massif I have seen their products and while I do not own any (yet), they do appear to have one of the best product lines.

Chuckroast

Majestic

Pete

There is something just wrong with talking about wool when I went out to my car at lunch and it was a 105 F in the parking lot.

I was home from the service and feeling homesick for Alaska, preparing to cut my beard for job interviews with a fine solingen straight razor( after being homesick for Southern California for 6 years.) The radio was playing Led Zeppelin's Immigrant Song. I put on my fur trimmed alaskan parka and trooper's hat, snuggled comfortably in it trying to catch the fading smells of salmon, woodsmoke, saltspray and spilled hot buttered rhums . The doorbell rang and I opened it without pause. The summer blast of the then 100 degree drought shoved past somebody holding a bible with the threat of even greater temperatures as our band sang " valhalla I am coming..." and I'm standing there like some Jack London ubermennen holding a razor. He mumbled something and left quickly. Try that with Goretex <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lol, maybe a Gortex windbreaker with "IRS" in large white letters on the back? Great story Chris, Thanks <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

When Ibex starts making tall sizes I want to try several of their items until then I guess its Filsons among others for me.

Chris,

I love it, only you would have a story like that <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pete

Fleece :
I guess that is called " laine polaire " in France. Artificial fiber, made out of "plastic" (recycled from plastic bottles caps).
Is that what you are talking about ??

Yes, but when a coke bottle recycled into a garment is never recycled again, wool and other natural materials do what they have for millenia.

No. Wool is the new wool.

Fleece is what the manufacturers of synthetic pile do to their customers!

Nothing performs as well as wool in as wide a range of situations and climates.

If you haven't done so, I suggest you check out such companies as Ibex, Smartwool, Filson, King of the Mountain, etc. to get an idea of what's being done with wool today.

Personally, I have resolved to eliminate plastics from my outdoor gear wherever possible. I've even thought of starting a retail business to provide all-natural travel, camping, and survival gear. The only areas I have found so far where natural materials are at a significant disadvantage is in sleeping, shelter, and climbing gear. Everywhere I can, I subsitute wood, metal, leather, or natural fibers for plastic. While many of my substitutes are heavier than equivalent plastic items, the additional utility of a stronger, more repairable item is worth the trade-off...not to mention the lessened environmental impact.

For me it sure is. I believe fleece offers twice the warmth of wool at half the weight. You can't beat that. Plus, it dries very quickly. Wool does not.

During last winter's cold snap when temperatures plunged to zero for a few days, I wore fleece, not wool. No regrets.

The only time I wear wool now is for dressier events. Wool still looks classier than fleece. If I'm dressing to impress, I bring out the wool sweater.

-- Craig

Ah, yes. But fleece is cheap -- often $10 for a hoodie at the discount retailers. Cheap enough to keep one in the bob, one in the car and have a spare for camping.

..Or like me; 10 fleece tops.

I bought my first fleece in 1983. That was the beginning of the end for wool garments for me. Fleece is better in nearly every respect, with the exception of flame resistance.

..and nice and soft for nap time

If you can still find it, try wool pile. Not the WWII stuff, they used the same design as the synthetic but used wool thread (real good stuff too). Light as fleece, but all the advantages of wool. Helly Hansen used to make it for the Swedish Army. They started it, I am told, because the synthetic dld not work well when they could not wash it every day or two. I'd love to find some more.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Wet fleece insulates, a whole lot better than bare wet skin but,Wet wool is still the best for heat generating/retention,as far as Wet fabric is concerned!Drying is a trade off of sorts-Would you rather be Warm & wet or Dry & cold? Start up that campfire to dry up/warm up a bit,I'll take the wool!Merino,Cashmere,Alpaca in that order if I have a choice! For fleece I would choose Patagonia capilene or Medalist micro as,I have some & they perform well,also!All of the above are, Money well spent,IMO! I have no affiliation with the above mentioned brands,chingaderas,etc.

I prefer fleece, fiber pile and holofil over wool for 99% of my needs. It's warmer, lighter and much easier to maintain. Modern synthetics are not actually easy to ignite. They tend to melt rather than burn.
Having said that: If I know that I am about to light a fire, I have a wool Swanndri to wear as a top layer.

i have a few old books about trapping and canoeing and of course wool was the only thing they had,a old suit jacket that went "shabby" was a good choice among campers and fly fisherman.i did not see much in the way of rain gear.top and bottom rain suits seem unknown and waxed overcoats were heavy and expensive.
so to the point,with fleece or poly fluff of some sort and modern rain gear you have all the good points of wool beat by a mile.warm,dry and light rather than wet and heavy.when you have wool on and it's keeping you warm when it's wet you are burning up lots of calories to do that.energy best used for what you are out in the weather doing.

For me: I'll take the leather oxfords with gaiters, fuzzy wool pants, white cotton shirt, canvas peacoat, and beaver felt hat.....

Byrd...Great Picture!!! 'thats the problem with the old days heavy,clunky clothes and no auto ejectors on the shotguns.

Pure wool thermal underwear and socks, thank you. One or two layers under my wind / water proof shell, depending on temperature and expected intensity of activity.

I also carry the additionional fleece sweather or jacket for my lunch break needs.

Ditto -- It's not an either/or question, both have their strong points. I like pure Merino wool next to skin. Layered above that will be either another layer of wool or poly fleece; if it's cold enough a layer of wool and a layer of poly fleece. There may be an outer layer depending on condition and circumstances. That outer layer can be nylon or wool -- depending. It's very situation driven. Pants will be merino wool long u/w under nylon or fleece pants. Socks is wool and wool, liners and socks under boots.

Big Ditto on that statement! It's all about proper Layers, and a base layer of Merino wool is a great Start, then a fleece, then a shell (dictated by the conditions).. I have yet to burst into flames next to a fire, and have been around PLEANTY.

I think the most practical application of the non flammable properties of natural fibers is the wearing of naturals as the layer next to the body when in a situation (like flying in small planes) where the possibility of dealing with a significant fire exists. I am told (and I don't know of any objective studies) that synthetics will melt on the skin and cause significant injury - injuries that do not result if natural fibers are next to the skin.

The biggest problem with synthetics around campfires is the damage to the very expensive garment, not to the wearer. I don't know of any instances of injury from a campfire involving synthetics as a significant factor. Does anyone else?

Overall, I think the most significant advantage of synthetics is their inability to absorb moisture. They can be wrung dry, worn immediately, with final drying resulting from body heat. Wool is good; it's just that synthetics are slightly better. Cotton is a different story.....

Wool dangerous in cold weather water sports.

Almost lost a scoutmaster when his layers of Filson wool
drug him to the bottom in a canoeing flip.

Also heavy wool layers leave rafters floating much lower
when out of the raft. They hit more rocks and inhale more
water.

The stuff doesn't dry for a loooong time too.

Polypro adds buoyancy.

I have a variety of wool clothing and fleece along with other synthetics like polypro. I have used them all in all sorts of conditions. I always end up more comfortable in wool.

I think that wool or other natural clothing has a wider range of comfort than any of the synthetics. I can wear wool and it can be relatively warm and I am comfortable or it can be cold and my wool will keep me warm. The synthetics are less comfortable when it is warm, like indoors for a period of time and they are more uncomfortable in the cold because they promote perspiration, like putting plastic next to the skin.

A mix works well, light merino next to the skin and heavier wool or fleece layers next. A good windshell is necessary with either.
I find it easier to regulate my body heat with wool than with fleece. The wool breathes better to me. Fleece tends to let cold air in when it is windy and requires that wind shell more often.

I was out in s snowy, windy day this weekend and on top I had a polypro light shirt, a nylon shirt and a Polartec 300 jacket with pitzips and a mid-weight wind shell. On my lower body I had a light pair of merino wool underwear and a pair of 5.11 Taclite Pro pants. I was comfortable. I think I would have been equally as comfortable with a light merino top, a wool sweater, wool scarf and a windshell. It seemed to take more synthetic to keep me warm and it also made me hot with little activity. Wool would have been comfortable over a wider temp and activity range. If that makes sense.

If you like the 5.11 Taclite Pro pants (I was wearing Royal Robbin's 5.11's before the FBI made them popular), try RailRiders VersaTac-Mid Pant. A layer of wool underneath and you're good to go cold.

For warmer climates they have the same pant in a lighter weight nylon -- VersaTac-light Pant

Back to the topic -- For those who don't like wool but are concerned with polyester fleece incompatibility with camp fires, check out the flame resistant Nomex at Massif. Not cheap, way far from cheap, but good stuff.

Even better IMHO are the Versatac-Ultra-Light-Pants. Wearing mine right now and I love them.

Pete

Heavy "filson" sweathers have very little in common with merino wool termal underwear. Which is worn by every single kayaker I know. Any description I've read so far on how to dress for cold water sports include wool underwear, be it in conjunction with dry suits, wet suits or with ordinary clothing.

I have trouble seeing how buoancy is much of an issue when used with PDF's (Personal flotation devices, a.k.a. life west). That being said, the heavy "filson" sweater is best used at the camp fire.

Note that Nomex is pretty much standard attire for wild land fires these days.

Holy thread revival, Batman!