Brian:

Back when Charter Arms first came on the scene with their lightweight Undercover .38, I purchased one. One day while shooting at one of the indoor ranges, I happened to find myself shooting against a couple of Police Detectives. One of them was using an S&W Chief's Special snubbie, and the other was using a Colt Detective Special snubbie. We were all using lead 158 grain service loads at 50 feet, and my targets were printing a lot better that theirs. None of our shots were off the paper and the groups were pretty tight considering the 2 inch barrel lengths. We did a little gun switching and they both printed better targets shooting the Charter Arms than they did with their personal snubbies. The Chief's Special was nice and light, but I preferred the Colt Detective Special because of the way the handle fit my hand and the extra weight kept felt recoil down.

That Undercover .38 was the gun I sold with the upside down holster I miss so much for revolver carry. I never bought another Charter Arms after that and was disappointed to hear that they were getting a bad rap for quality in their later products. The finish of their products was not great, but the one I had, the mechanics and the accuracy of the gun were great.

I hope Taurus never takes the downward spiral so many gun manufacturers seem to be accused of in the quality of their products.

Bountyhunter

Anyone:

Please explain crush fit.

I keep seeing an unsupported frozen pressed in barrel without so much as a pin through the frame to hold the barrel in place.

What are modern Smith's lacking that was better with the 5 screw models, and what did the 5 screws hold?

Thanks!

Bountyhunter

These days I only shoot jacketed rounds through any/all of my guns. I like them to much to put lead through the bbls.

S&W barrels were threaded in and retained with a crosspin. Current barrels are merely threaded in with sloppier tolerances under greater pressure. This saves manufacturing time and costs. It also creates a distorted throat that can affect bullet accuracy. The swing out cylinder family of S&W first came with 5 frame screws securing the sideplate and cylinder yoke to the frame. Then they were reduced to 4 and finally 3 to reduce costs along with the barrel retaining pin. Earlier prewar pieces also have the 'long action' and higher hammer spur. Shooters complained about this and got a shorter locktime and lowered hammer. The irony is the older action is actually prefered by some shooters for accuracy and control. Aside from collectability, the screws are merely a signpost of production dates. A 5 screw is truly a handfitted firearm. The later 4 and earlier 3 screws still show good craftsmanship up until the bean counters and lawyers got involved. I owned a model 10 prewar with 6" barrel. I sold it to a good friend working with an armoured car service. He was so broke I loaned it to him to qualify for firearm carry. He shot a perfect score, as his Alabama grandfather would have expected and went to work carrying my handloaded 200 grain super police rounds ( another anachronism.) They got ambushed the first week. He put disabling rounds in both assailants before they had the shotguns on him <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Thats why I count my Smith screws so I don't <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Brian:

Lead bullets were cheaper and with a 2 inch snubbie, cleaning was a breeze. Lead is softer than copper, so I don't see how lead would damage your guns if you clean them regularly.

Bountyhunter

"Lead is softer than copper, so I don't see how lead would damage your guns if you clean them regularly."

Paradoxically, if you shoot more lead than copper it is possible to end up with more bore wear than if you shoot jacketed. That's because of all the scrubbing that goes on to remove the leading. Jacketed bullets merely require a soaking of a copper solvent like Hoppe's Benchrest #9. A lot of people get too zealous with the brush. Not me of course... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As far as crushed vs. pinned barrels go, I can't tell the difference in accuracy between my pinned Model 66 and my 29-8. But to be fair I'm not all that much of a hotshot with my revolvers anyway. I'm a lot more confident with my 45.

Regards, Vince

Leading can be reduced by using gaschecks on cast bullets and of course breaking in a new barrel properly reduces lead wash. Corbin reloading sells a hi tech machining cleaner consisting of micron small glass beads in an emulsified liquid.The cleaning process is mechanical vs chemical. The beads are physically compressed betwen the swab and barrel and literally scrape everything that didn't come from the factory. Excessive leading of a barrel is usually the result of to soft a alloy and higher velocities than the slug can handle without stripping in the lands. Aside from accuracy loss, you will slowly build up pressures that replicate stiff loads and reliability loss. The famous Bill Jordan explained this at a gunshow to a priveledged small audience ( me and 2 others) stating even the famed Model 27 could be locked up with some of the excessively stiff .357 loads in it's early days. Makes you wish we could cary dueling swords again, doesn't it <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Norad45:

I've heard quite a few horror stories about severe lead build up that requires massive brushing, but have never experienced it myself. I guess I don't shoot that much.

My personal defense ammunition is .38 semi-jacketed hollow point, .45 fmj 230 gr., .22 magnum 60 gr Federal copper bullets, and .22 long rifle hyper velocity 35 gr hollow point copper coated, and .25 fmj.

Bountyhunter

Chris:

No it doesn't.

Bountyhunter

In addition to the problem of leading caused by bullets which are too soft for the velocity that was covered in Chris K's excellent response, leading in handgun barrels can be due to other causes. Rough bores will abrade lead from the bullet depositing it onto the rifling. It is eventually ironed into the barrel with each successive shot through the barrel.

Leading can also result from using a bullet which is too hard to expand under the pressure of the gas from the burning gunpowder. That prevent the bullet from obturating the gas which then pushes past the bullet. The heat from the gas burns off lead from the bullet and fuses it onto the bore. That leading will also be ironed into the bore with successive shots through it.

IIRC, leading towards the front of the barrel indicates a bullet which is too soft for the velocity generated by the load; and leading at the rear of the barrel indicates a bullet which is too hard to expand the bullet to obturate bore from the pressurized gas.

I use mainly lead bullets in target shooting. My low to medium powered loads are exclusively with lead bullets. I shoot jacketed bullets only in the higher powered loads. I normally have very little trouble with leading from my established loads.

Good luck,

John