Yes, you're right. I guess it's better that SOMEONE get the kids out there, even if they're not very qualified. Even if the kids don't learn anything (although they usually learn something, even if it's what NOT to do), it may get them thinking about what they might be able to do in more extreme circumstances.

Sue

I doubt it has changed all that much unless you're a lot older than me EXCEPT that 1) BSA is a member of Leave No Trace and 2) Society has changed beyond belief since I was a boy.

If you read my note, I let boys whom I trust with a sheath knife carry one when it does not otherwise violate a local regulation. That would be most of the boys most of the time.

We take axes and hatchets when it is appropriate to use them (about 1/2 the time). I simply exercise veto-oversight on exactly who the patrol leader assigns those tasks to. There is nothing I can do about the majority who are grossly unsafe with chopping tools unless closely supervised every swing. And this is boy-run, so I'm on the edge exercising that much control already.

We have raised our own 4 kids pretty much the same way we were raised. All our kids can fend for themselves with about any tools from knives to guns to automotive tools to sewing machines to carpentry to - well, you get the idea. I cannot do that for 20+ other kids that I spend 90+ minutes a week with plus a weekend or so a month.

It is NOT Scouts that has changed..

Tom

AyersGT,

I salute you on your CORRECT interpretation and implementation of the Guide to Safe Scouting Knife guidelines. Though I am only a Webelos Den Leader right now, I always figured the right approach was not to battle with the District or Council rules, but rather to accept the rules and work with them.

During my BALOO training (Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation) they had us dice up potatoes and onions for foil cooking. Seeing my folder fill with potato and onion guts I immediately was reminded of the benefits of the forbidden sheath knife (we were in a Council campground). The funny thing is that those in charge of the training supplied medium sized fixed blade kitchen knifes for those adults who didn't bring their own knives.

My thinking is that I would want to pre-approve personal fixed blade knives that boys plan to bring to non-council campgrounds (they are banned from our Council campgrounds) just to limit the Rambo effect and, where applicable, make sure legalities are met. For safety I think I would suggest that fixed blade knives be properly carried in packs (securely aligned side-to-side or up-and-down, rather than hanging from a belt, though if a sheathed blade is carried on the rear portion of a belt, it seems it should be sufficiently safe. As with anything in Scouting, if a boy was found to be doing anything dangerous - with any knife, a cutting tool, or anything - they would be corrected (Totin' Chip corners ripped) and eventually could loose the privilege until better skills/sense could be demonstrated.

There is a time and place for every tool even in Scouting.

Also, for splitting wood in Boy Scouts, we carried full-length axes and often splitting mauls and mallets - though not when backpacking. We woud NEVER have tried to split a log with a knife. Keep in mind though that NONE of our fixed blade knives in Scouting when I was a boy were nearly as robust as some of the popular survival knifes today (like the Beckers and some of the Ontarios). Most of them were more like the Buck Vanguard or smaller.

Chris:

In a situation such as Robinson described, would your priority be to start the fire (while dry wood was still readily available) or build the shelter (so you didn't have to do it in the rain?

I think the Scout leader in this case could have exercised some better common sense and split the scouts into two groups - one to build the shelters and the other to get the fires going.

It may have been a "character-building" exercise but if so, it should have been followed up with a "lessons learned" so the scouts would have an opportunity to see what they could have done differently/better.

KenK,

Well, sounds like you're on the right track in my book. Shhhh! about those kitchen knives, though - I'll never again set foot on a Scout Reservation if THOSE get regulated out.

Funny how that "hour a week" means "an hour with the boys" and doesn't mention all the hours you put in between the meetings, eh? I believe it's well worth it in the long haul, though.

As you look ahead, a suggestion: We use Boy's axes mostly - they are a much better fit, size-wise, for all of the younger (smaller) scouts. We have larger axes for the nearly adult-sized boys, but the smaller axes get used the most.

As for splitting logs - I show the boys over and over how to split smaller wood (say 1" diameter) into useful splits for fire lays, using a knife and safe techniques. The majority of them "get it" and instead of scrounging around endlessly for little bits of twigs, quickly split the readily available stuff with their knives (safer than a hatchet or axe) and get the fire going - with a HotSpark and cotton ball they've prepared and carried. It's really cool when they understand things you've taught them. Nowadays I can usually sit back and let the 14 year olds be the "old hands" at most of the simple things - they do the bulk of the teaching.

Tom

Hi Tom,
Thanks for the good reply--it was well thought out and I respect what you are doing. I am not ashamed to say that I am 53 and that it was my priviledge to grow up in NE Iowa and to enjoy scouting during my youth.
I do agree, times and society have changed much--and to my way of thinking, many of the changes are NOT FOR THE GOOD!! Enough ranting, carry on the good work.
Ford

Ford,

Heck, you're MONTHS older than me, LoL - what are the odds? Where abouts - Dubuque area? Born in Davenport myself, but grew up on the other side of the river. This part of the country has changed less than most but it HAS changed - certainly not entirely for the better, as you wrote. Some good in there, too, but it's hard for me to remember that sometimes.

When I was a scout, we didn't have stoves (my family had a Coleman 2 burner since before I can remember, and I'm the eldest of my sibs). Everything was cooked in the patrol cooksets or our personal messkits over open fires. We got wet, we got cold (oh, man did we get cold!), we had to scrub the heck out of those cooksets, we had canvas "Baker tents", and man, did we have fun! Those tents and cooksets were the only equipment our troop owned. Somehow, we survived (shoot, it was so much fun I'm grinning at the memories as I write this).

I just spent over $2,000 in the last couple of weeks re-equipping our troop - the last shipment is due in tomorrow afternoon. If that sounds like a lot, it's not - we bought "best value" stuff, not "most expensive" and we're a modest-sized troop. (Oh, and I haggled discounts from every vendor or went elsewhere.) The boys earned the money fair and square and we're lightening up our tread a LOT - even our "front country" camping is getting a lot lighter.

We've fiddled around with it (going lighter) using every bit of stuff we can scrounge and borrow out of my storeroom and a couple of others and the boys love it. I guess that's the key thing - they are having a lot of fun and, darn it, they're learning good things along the way. It's not idyllic by a long shot, but it's the modern equivalent of what it was like for us, and that matters a lot to me. One thing I don't worry about is that our scouts can take care of business if push comes to shove. I hope we're doing good things that will stick with them - I believe we are, but don't take that for granted.

Well, I've wandered way off topic for this forum - Chris K. has been generous, but this ought to move to the Campfire forum.

And where is our intrepid Lousiana Scout who started this thread with a simple question? (A darned good question, I might add.) RC, I wish one of us could SHOW you the answer(s) instead of just writing. Hmmm - seems to me there's a couple of forum members here who are citizens of your fine state - I'm a bit too far up the river from you myself. BTW, I think your SPL did a good thing by having you set up the tents, and personally I'm envious that you got to canoe into the swamp and camp - I would have really enjoyed that. A troop that lets you do things like that is OK in my book, wet wood and hunger aside. How can we help you learn the skill you asked about? (...waiting for Cliff...)

Regards,

Tom

Tom, Some of the threads probably should be moved, some good in both and sometimes It's like doing my English minor thesis on W.B.Yeats the night before it was due ( aced it too, Gaelic lit is like the language, the more utterly unintelligable it is the more people step back and go "ahhhh" ) I'm leaving the thread in situ. Chris <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I think, maybe <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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And have some means of splitting available wood into smaller diameters. Following assumes that you have a stout locking folder, fixed blade knife, hatchet, or small ax:


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I can't help but be reminded of a recent thread over at BF about fixed blade knives being banned in the BSA.

I'm curious. Did anyone in your group have a fixed blade knife or a hatchet with them on this trip?

Well, my troop carries a trailer around with them, which has some axes in it, but we went to an isolated island reachable only by canoe, so we could only take our personal gear, and tents. not axes.

I wonder why the scoutmaster insisted on a wood fire in the rain??? I suppose he was trying to provide a learning experience, but one thing you need to learn for a survival situation is not to cause hypothermia trying to build a fire.

Of course, the large swamps probably aren't bone-chillingly cold right now..... But the thought comes to me about people who are emotionally unable to change their plan when the circumstances change.

Sue
My scoutmaster chose that because it was the only way we could cook our meals, because we left the stoves in the trailer, because you can only get there by canoe, so it's nescessary to carry only the essentials. It was also supposed to be more of a primitive campout.