I went on a BSA campout this weekend in the the largest sawmp in North America. We got their by car and canoe, and when we arrived it started to rain. My Senior Patrol Leader made us set up tents right away. It was by that time fove o'clock P.M, and we were hungry. But there was a problem, for all our food was to be cooked over a fire. Although the rain had almost stopped, this was still a problem. We had to make a fire using Very wet wood! My scoutmaster made us dry the wood over the fire, but this created lots of smoke and didn't work well. My question is, how do you start a LARGE fire using very wet wood? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> : <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Someone please respond. I don't want to be cold and wet again!

David, you still sound cold and miserable <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Your leader wouldn't put gasoline contaminated with water in his gastank would he? I don't know what your woodsource was, but was he trying to teach some character building life lesson or perhaps doesn't know any better? There is always dry wood available, even in a Cajun swamp with fireflies mimicking Jaque LaFitte's ghost. I bet old Jaque would have handed you a boarding cutless to split and trim the wood down to the inner dry portions. I also bet that old pirate would have kept a weather eye on the horizon and maybe bring in or protect the firewood at least for the first night, and build a seperate fire downwind specifically to dry out additional billets. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

>> My question is, how do you start a LARGE fire using very wet wood? <<

You can't - not really. Chris K. put you on the right track. Smaller fires are usually better anyway.


It pays to mind what species of wood you're using, too - doubly so when it seems like all the wood is wet. Red oaks are sponges, for example. (I'm not crazy about any oak in a camp fire in the first place - fine in a fireplace or stove, but...) But sometimes you just have to make do with whatever is available.

So having enough dry fixings for a couple of fires can be a real life-saver. Carry some fatwood, at least. And have some means of splitting available wood into smaller diameters. Following assumes that you have a stout locking folder, fixed blade knife, hatchet, or small ax:

If the only wood you can find is wet, split it down to pencil diameter - a good -sized pile say about enough to fill up the big cookpot in your patrol cookset. Then split another cookpot full in pieces ranging from about 1/2" to 1" in diameter. There is no sense trying to get going faster - split up all that stuff first, and keep it from getting any wetter than it already is - keep it out of the rain. If the ground is totally soaked, make a platform with small diameter logs (2" - 4" in diameter) and build the fire on that. Start your fire with your fatwood and add the small diameter split stuff loosely - build it up but don't choke it. When you have a solid blaze going with coals starting to build up, start mixing in the larger split stuff in with the remaining small stuff. Don't put anything damp on the fire unless it's at least split in 1/2 and preferably split in 1/4s or better - the less bark and the more splintery faces and edges the better.

Ash is my favorite fuel wood; osage orange is great if you can break it up (spits a lot, but what coals!) and dry mulberry is almost as good if most of the bark is off, hickory is good and walnut not bad - well, plenty of good wood around here - but you need to split your wood in really damp conditions. Learn what good firewoods are common in your area

If the rain is really pouring down, you'll have a tougher time and might want to shield the fire from the rain. It's pretty miserable under those conditions and I can think of very few reasons why anyone would need to stay out in the rain messing around with a campfire - getting out of the rain is more important.

A tarp and a backpacking stove has always been my preference in those conditions. All my scouts carry at least an Esbit stove in their ready packs and many of them have moved to small backpacking stoves instead. An Esbit stove, a canteen cup, and a foil windscreen cut out from a disposable aluminum roasting pan has cooked many a meal and brewed many a cup of hot beverage for my scouts - food for thought. They don't PLAN to use the Esbit stoves (well, not usually), but they beat the heck out of cold food and beverage under those conditions. We get the stoves for around $5 each, which includes a box of fuel (Stove is Esbit brand and fuel is generic - the real Esbit Tabs are larger and cost more.) Many hardware stores carry Weber solid fuel charcoal starter, which looks and burns amazingly just like Esbit fuel (hexamine)...

For a very lttle effort and even less cost you could make alcohol stoves. There are many designs to choose from, but they all work roughly as well, even the simplest ones. A small alcohol stove, 3 tent pins (or 40 penny pole barn nails), and a foil windscreen could help you out... the smallest kettle in your patrol cookset will hold enough water for 1-2 scouts to make a meal. (Supposedly a 2qt kettle, but it only holds about 1 quart with enough headroom to boil water without slopping over).

In your neck of the woods any cannister stove will work pretty much year-round without being finicky - there are some very inexpensive ones available from Coleman, Markill (and re-branded Markill), etc. More on that some other time if you're interested.

And of course there are the old standbys (white gas stoves). Most troops around here just use an ordinary 2 burner Coleman stove (white gas or propane) when canoeing... still need a tarp if the rain is coming down.

Hope that gives you a few ideas - be a good idea to practice this stuff before you need it. I'll be out camping with scouts every weekend this month and they will be using, at various times, all of the above... including campfires. Going to be a great month...

ADV/ASM Ayers
Crew & Troop 258
Illowa Council

I can't help but be reminded of a recent thread over at BF about fixed blade knives being banned in the BSA.

I'm curious. Did anyone in your group have a fixed blade knife or a hatchet with them on this trip?

>> I can't help but be reminded of a recent thread over at BF about fixed blade knives being banned in the BSA. <<

They are not banned. I let some of my scouts carry them in their packs whenever 1) We are not on our local reservation 2) They ask me in advance.

Local policies vary all over the place. Sometimes there are good reasons for the policies and sometimes there are not. Just like life in general...

I've come up with some "legal" alternatives for some big knife tasks when we are on our reservation - basically a cross between a small froe and a drawknife. One variation works best as a froe because it's mild steel. The other works as either - it's made of hardened and tempered steel. A third variation based on a utility file (integral handle) works OK, but the teeth get loaded up with wood pulp when splitting and a little extra care is required to use the file (one edge sharp) as a file.

Grind up a knife with no point, put a handle on it, call it a wood splitter and it seems to be OK with about anyone.

I would just as soon never see most of my scouts with an axe or hatchet, but alas! It's still part of the Totin' Chip requirements. My Dad taught me axemanship starting at the ripe old age of 5 and I did the same with my boys - plus we all had/have enough opportunities to practice enough to stay moderately skilled but infrequently enough to remain respectful. Even my one rural scout doesn't use an axe at home, so... I'd rather see axes go away from scouts. 30 minutes (or less) a month just doesn't do anything more than make them dangerous.

I wonder why the scoutmaster insisted on a wood fire in the rain??? I suppose he was trying to provide a learning experience, but one thing you need to learn for a survival situation is not to cause hypothermia trying to build a fire.

Of course, the large swamps probably aren't bone-chillingly cold right now..... But the thought comes to me about people who are emotionally unable to change their plan when the circumstances change.

Sue

Well, Scouting has sure changed since I was in Scouts in Iowa years ago. We ALWAYS had axes, hatchets and sheath knives for working in the woods. Is it really that hard to teach the boys how to respect and use axes??? I thought that was the whole point--teach the boys how to develop skills that they did not have??

In the past, kids were taught how to handle knives, axes & firearms as soon as they were big enough to hold them.

In today's protect-the-kid-from-everything-except-televison society, it is assumed that the kids are too stupid to learn. Actually, the parents are just too lazy to teach them anything useful, if they know how themselves, which most don't.

Sue

>> I wonder why the scoutmaster insisted on a wood fire in the rain??? <<

No data. We are not exactly overrun with experienced woodsmen, for what that's worth. Most truly competent outdoorsmen prefer to do their own thing instead of invest in the future of a bunch of other folks kids (yeah, that's bitter - but the truth). I guess I'm a wierdo.

I'm in the midst of a revolt I started here about a lot of that stuff, so I'm not going to comment further. I'll tend my own fire. At least some adult males took those guys out... and it is a heck of a lot of time spent by active scouters - time with other folks kids. My neck fur goes up when capable guys NOT active in Scouting lob all-knowing grenades at it, and by association, the folks who try to make it work for the lads. (No, no one in this thread is doing that.)

Tom

Yes, you're right. I guess it's better that SOMEONE get the kids out there, even if they're not very qualified. Even if the kids don't learn anything (although they usually learn something, even if it's what NOT to do), it may get them thinking about what they might be able to do in more extreme circumstances.

Sue

I doubt it has changed all that much unless you're a lot older than me EXCEPT that 1) BSA is a member of Leave No Trace and 2) Society has changed beyond belief since I was a boy.

If you read my note, I let boys whom I trust with a sheath knife carry one when it does not otherwise violate a local regulation. That would be most of the boys most of the time.

We take axes and hatchets when it is appropriate to use them (about 1/2 the time). I simply exercise veto-oversight on exactly who the patrol leader assigns those tasks to. There is nothing I can do about the majority who are grossly unsafe with chopping tools unless closely supervised every swing. And this is boy-run, so I'm on the edge exercising that much control already.

We have raised our own 4 kids pretty much the same way we were raised. All our kids can fend for themselves with about any tools from knives to guns to automotive tools to sewing machines to carpentry to - well, you get the idea. I cannot do that for 20+ other kids that I spend 90+ minutes a week with plus a weekend or so a month.

It is NOT Scouts that has changed..

Tom

AyersGT,

I salute you on your CORRECT interpretation and implementation of the Guide to Safe Scouting Knife guidelines. Though I am only a Webelos Den Leader right now, I always figured the right approach was not to battle with the District or Council rules, but rather to accept the rules and work with them.

During my BALOO training (Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation) they had us dice up potatoes and onions for foil cooking. Seeing my folder fill with potato and onion guts I immediately was reminded of the benefits of the forbidden sheath knife (we were in a Council campground). The funny thing is that those in charge of the training supplied medium sized fixed blade kitchen knifes for those adults who didn't bring their own knives.

My thinking is that I would want to pre-approve personal fixed blade knives that boys plan to bring to non-council campgrounds (they are banned from our Council campgrounds) just to limit the Rambo effect and, where applicable, make sure legalities are met. For safety I think I would suggest that fixed blade knives be properly carried in packs (securely aligned side-to-side or up-and-down, rather than hanging from a belt, though if a sheathed blade is carried on the rear portion of a belt, it seems it should be sufficiently safe. As with anything in Scouting, if a boy was found to be doing anything dangerous - with any knife, a cutting tool, or anything - they would be corrected (Totin' Chip corners ripped) and eventually could loose the privilege until better skills/sense could be demonstrated.

There is a time and place for every tool even in Scouting.

Also, for splitting wood in Boy Scouts, we carried full-length axes and often splitting mauls and mallets - though not when backpacking. We woud NEVER have tried to split a log with a knife. Keep in mind though that NONE of our fixed blade knives in Scouting when I was a boy were nearly as robust as some of the popular survival knifes today (like the Beckers and some of the Ontarios). Most of them were more like the Buck Vanguard or smaller.

Chris:

In a situation such as Robinson described, would your priority be to start the fire (while dry wood was still readily available) or build the shelter (so you didn't have to do it in the rain?

I think the Scout leader in this case could have exercised some better common sense and split the scouts into two groups - one to build the shelters and the other to get the fires going.

It may have been a "character-building" exercise but if so, it should have been followed up with a "lessons learned" so the scouts would have an opportunity to see what they could have done differently/better.

KenK,

Well, sounds like you're on the right track in my book. Shhhh! about those kitchen knives, though - I'll never again set foot on a Scout Reservation if THOSE get regulated out.

Funny how that "hour a week" means "an hour with the boys" and doesn't mention all the hours you put in between the meetings, eh? I believe it's well worth it in the long haul, though.

As you look ahead, a suggestion: We use Boy's axes mostly - they are a much better fit, size-wise, for all of the younger (smaller) scouts. We have larger axes for the nearly adult-sized boys, but the smaller axes get used the most.

As for splitting logs - I show the boys over and over how to split smaller wood (say 1" diameter) into useful splits for fire lays, using a knife and safe techniques. The majority of them "get it" and instead of scrounging around endlessly for little bits of twigs, quickly split the readily available stuff with their knives (safer than a hatchet or axe) and get the fire going - with a HotSpark and cotton ball they've prepared and carried. It's really cool when they understand things you've taught them. Nowadays I can usually sit back and let the 14 year olds be the "old hands" at most of the simple things - they do the bulk of the teaching.

Tom

Hi Tom,
Thanks for the good reply--it was well thought out and I respect what you are doing. I am not ashamed to say that I am 53 and that it was my priviledge to grow up in NE Iowa and to enjoy scouting during my youth.
I do agree, times and society have changed much--and to my way of thinking, many of the changes are NOT FOR THE GOOD!! Enough ranting, carry on the good work.
Ford

Ford,

Heck, you're MONTHS older than me, LoL - what are the odds? Where abouts - Dubuque area? Born in Davenport myself, but grew up on the other side of the river. This part of the country has changed less than most but it HAS changed - certainly not entirely for the better, as you wrote. Some good in there, too, but it's hard for me to remember that sometimes.

When I was a scout, we didn't have stoves (my family had a Coleman 2 burner since before I can remember, and I'm the eldest of my sibs). Everything was cooked in the patrol cooksets or our personal messkits over open fires. We got wet, we got cold (oh, man did we get cold!), we had to scrub the heck out of those cooksets, we had canvas "Baker tents", and man, did we have fun! Those tents and cooksets were the only equipment our troop owned. Somehow, we survived (shoot, it was so much fun I'm grinning at the memories as I write this).

I just spent over $2,000 in the last couple of weeks re-equipping our troop - the last shipment is due in tomorrow afternoon. If that sounds like a lot, it's not - we bought "best value" stuff, not "most expensive" and we're a modest-sized troop. (Oh, and I haggled discounts from every vendor or went elsewhere.) The boys earned the money fair and square and we're lightening up our tread a LOT - even our "front country" camping is getting a lot lighter.

We've fiddled around with it (going lighter) using every bit of stuff we can scrounge and borrow out of my storeroom and a couple of others and the boys love it. I guess that's the key thing - they are having a lot of fun and, darn it, they're learning good things along the way. It's not idyllic by a long shot, but it's the modern equivalent of what it was like for us, and that matters a lot to me. One thing I don't worry about is that our scouts can take care of business if push comes to shove. I hope we're doing good things that will stick with them - I believe we are, but don't take that for granted.

Well, I've wandered way off topic for this forum - Chris K. has been generous, but this ought to move to the Campfire forum.

And where is our intrepid Lousiana Scout who started this thread with a simple question? (A darned good question, I might add.) RC, I wish one of us could SHOW you the answer(s) instead of just writing. Hmmm - seems to me there's a couple of forum members here who are citizens of your fine state - I'm a bit too far up the river from you myself. BTW, I think your SPL did a good thing by having you set up the tents, and personally I'm envious that you got to canoe into the swamp and camp - I would have really enjoyed that. A troop that lets you do things like that is OK in my book, wet wood and hunger aside. How can we help you learn the skill you asked about? (...waiting for Cliff...)

Regards,

Tom

Tom, Some of the threads probably should be moved, some good in both and sometimes It's like doing my English minor thesis on W.B.Yeats the night before it was due ( aced it too, Gaelic lit is like the language, the more utterly unintelligable it is the more people step back and go "ahhhh" ) I'm leaving the thread in situ. Chris <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I think, maybe <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In reply to:
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And have some means of splitting available wood into smaller diameters. Following assumes that you have a stout locking folder, fixed blade knife, hatchet, or small ax:


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I can't help but be reminded of a recent thread over at BF about fixed blade knives being banned in the BSA.

I'm curious. Did anyone in your group have a fixed blade knife or a hatchet with them on this trip?

Well, my troop carries a trailer around with them, which has some axes in it, but we went to an isolated island reachable only by canoe, so we could only take our personal gear, and tents. not axes.

I wonder why the scoutmaster insisted on a wood fire in the rain??? I suppose he was trying to provide a learning experience, but one thing you need to learn for a survival situation is not to cause hypothermia trying to build a fire.

Of course, the large swamps probably aren't bone-chillingly cold right now..... But the thought comes to me about people who are emotionally unable to change their plan when the circumstances change.

Sue
My scoutmaster chose that because it was the only way we could cook our meals, because we left the stoves in the trailer, because you can only get there by canoe, so it's nescessary to carry only the essentials. It was also supposed to be more of a primitive campout.

Yes, you're right. I guess it's better that SOMEONE get the kids out there, even if they're not very qualified. Even if the kids don't learn anything (although they usually learn something, even if it's what NOT to do), it may get them thinking about what they might be able to do in more extreme circumstances.
My scoutmaster and all the aother adults are qualified, they just wanted this campout to be a more primitive one.

Ah the perjorative and misunderstood word 'primative' again. A black, rotary phone that weighs 5 lbs and reads made in the USA by MA BELL is primative vs a Cellphone that alerts you to an incoming message with Scooby Doo theme songs. Drop both from a 3 story building <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> or find a 'primative' person who would go to sleep wet and cold on that island <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

While a young Scout - many many years ago - I was taught that the first priority was to put up the dining fly and get the rain-sensitive gear - usually charcoal, sleeping bags, & packs - underneath it. I would think that would include at least some dry firewood (if it had just started raining).

We would typically try to wait out the rain a bit before putting up tents in hopes that the rain would let up. Sometimes it did, but more often it didn't.

We still do that - when they have a dining fly along. They are about to make the connection (later this month) with the same concept when we're backpacking. A donated roll of Tyvek turns into backpacking crew tarps tonight...

I am going to post over in the Camp Fire Forum our experiences this past weekend regarding fire in the rain.

Pete