"The problem, to some degree has been the fault of the public themselves and the litigious nature of society. If, I as an EMS/Rescue provider turn the care of a patient (could be as simple as “here hold direct pressure on that wound” or “could you help me carry the patient down the stairs”) to a non-trained citizen, I leave the Fire Department, Line Officers, myself and family open to major legal and possibly criminal liability not only from the patient, but from the person (who may have volunteered to help) I directed to perform some action."

Well, if Good Samaritan laws don't already shield you, then perhaps it's time to mount a push to get them changed. I'm surprised though; on 09-11-01 there must have been thousands of private citizens helping out. Why were there not thousands of lawsuits? I know the settlement covered the airlines, but what about the citizenry? Could not the threat of litigation be a bit overblown? Maybe it's just another excuse for the powers-that-be to keep citizens uninvolved.

"If you want to see a change in attitude, join up and become an instrument of change."

Sorry, that's just not possible for many of us, at least right now. I chose a different career long ago, and I'm not going to be able to become an EMT or a fireman at this stage of my life. And the time available to me for volunteering is going to be negligable--at least for the next little while. I must therefore remain an amateur. I just want to make sure I can contribute if needed. I do hope to take first aid refresher sometime soon.

Please don't take my comments regarding "the authorites" or "the powers-that-be" to apply to the rank and file EMT's, LEO's, or fireman. While the "us vs. them" attitude has trickled down to some extent, it certaintly does not apply to all.

Regards, Vince

“Well, if Good Samaritan laws don't already shield you, then perhaps it's time to mount a push to get them changed. I'm surprised though; on 09-11-01 there must have been thousands of private citizens helping out. Why were there not thousands of lawsuits? I know the settlement covered the airlines, but what about the citizenry? Could not the threat of litigation be a bit overblown? Maybe it's just another excuse for the powers-that-be to keep citizens uninvolved.”

Good Samaritan Laws will not protect any EMS provider, volunteer or career, who turns patient care over to an individual without equal training, it is called “patient abandonment”. A provider may, if the patient’s condition warrants, downgrade the level of care required and turn the patient over to another provider with a lesser level of training. However, if the provider did not appropriately evaluate the patient, before downgrading or if the patient takes a turn for the worse, the higher-level provider will be held accountable both civilly and possibly criminally. The events of 09-11-01 were extraordinary and fall under Mass Casualty Incident (MCI) protocols, which allow for a great deal of flexibility in emergency care. As to lawsuits, I really don’t know, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all if there are some, perhaps not being publicized.

“Sorry, that's just not possible for many of us, at least right now. I chose a different career long ago, and I'm not going to be able to become an EMT or a fireman at this stage of my life. And the time available to me for volunteering is going to be negligable--at least for the next little while. I must therefore remain an amateur. I just want to make sure I can contribute if needed. I do hope to take first aid refresher sometime soon.”

You need not become an EMT or Firefighter to be of value. The already mentioned CERTs are a wonderful way to be of service. Helping out at a local Fire Department, EMS, Red Cross, Scouting or any other service related organization, whether with “hands on rescue’, fund raising, record keeping or hundreds of other necessary, but behind the scenes activities are all vital ways, we the citizenry can maintain control over our lives, at least on a local level. I too, am an amateur, like thousands of other volunteers; we do what we do for the love of doing it.

Pete

Pete is correct. Good Samaritan laws are fairly narrow in their protection, and aren't a guarantee that you won't be sued. It should be a real emergency: no breathing, no heartbeat, severe bleeding and shock. If you go beyond your knowledge and screw up, it won't protect you. Getting a person out of a car after an accident is not a good thing to do because you might compound injuries, but if the car is on fire, it's probably a good idea. If death or irreversible damage would occur before the EMT get there, your choices are limited & you would probably be covered. (Unless the victim is a NY City attorney, in which case maybe sneaking away before anyone gets your license plate would be the thing to do... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

The Good Samaritin Laws are a sad gauge of our society. People used to help without thought of being sued. Then, in the 60's I believe, it was discovered that you might be able to sue someone for your early retirement, and people became reluctant to stop to help anyone due to that fear. People would watch other people die because they were scared of losing everything they had to help a stranger. Now, it is also a law in many states that you can be sued for FAILING to render aid.

I suppose you could call it a full circle of stupidity. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Sue

"Good Samaritan laws are fairly narrow in their protection, and aren't a guarantee that you won't be sued."

True. This is America and you can sue anyone for anything. Winning is another matter entirely. I would like to know just how frequently private citizens are sued for rendering aid, and how frequently such suits are successful. I'm willing to bet the odds against either are astronomical. Again, it sounds like something the authorities use to frighten us peons into noninvolvement. But if anyone has any actual data on the matter that would take it out of the realm of urban legend, then I'm willing to look at it.

Regards, Vince

"Good Samaritan Laws will not protect any EMS provider, volunteer or career, who turns patient care over to an individual without equal training...”

Nobody is suggesting that. Let me put it this way. What if you arrive on the scene of a disaster and find private citizens already rendering effective aid? Are you expected to forcibly remove them? What we are headed towards is a society in which you will arrive on the scene only to find corpses, because the citizens who happened to be on hand were too ignorant to render assistance and too fearful of lawsuits to try. A fear that, I might add, may turn out to be way overblown.

We're not there yet, thankfully.

Regards, Vince

Norad45:

The cost to hire an attorney to defend yourself is usually more than it costs the person hiring an attorney to sue you.

In Wisconsin, we have a State Statute against frivolous law suits.

Wisconsin also has provisions for requesting "Summary Judgements" against the filer of frivolous law suits and their attornies which allows the Judge to award damages to the victims of frivolous lawsuits. Since Judges tend to be lawyers, you don't hear about a lot of lawyers getting assessed "Summary Judgements" and although I am not an attorney, I believe you or your attorney have to request such a ruling.

Bountyhunter

Bounty, I think that the "Summary Judgement" ruling that Wisconsin has should be emulated by the entire country. Of course, 3/4 of the bloodsuckers--oops: lawyers--would be out of business.

This goes far beyond the law enforcement or EMT professions though. Do you know anybody who changes their own oil anymore? Anybody who does their own plumbing maybe?

We are becoming a nation of helpless wimps. I am gratified to notice that, at least in some cases, the women are taking up the slack. I attribute that to the growing number of women serving in the military, the police, and EMT/fire department. It seems to lead to a surge in self-sufficiency on their part. Thank God for that.

Regards, Vince

I know many people feel very helpless in emergency situations and many don’t really care about anyone else, as long as they are ok. As a child I witnessed an older gentleman collapse and die on a Philadelphia street corner while people stepped over his body to get to wherever they were going. Getting that off my chest, I do know through conversations I have had, a great many of the helpless feeling people would rather not feel that way but they find for various reasons that it’s difficult to acquire the proper training and have limited knowledge of and fear of the liabilities involved.

Sometimes you just have to do what you can. On May 3 1999 minutes after one of the most devastating tornados in recorded history ripped through Del City Oklahoma we were in the effected area. The people we helped could care less what type of training we had they just wanted to be helped and they were grateful. Being members the USAF we all had some limited first aid training. We were not anywhere near as qualify as the rescue professionals but we felt qualified and confident enough to render the assistance our backs, hands and brains could render. We moved lots of rubble to get trapped people out and treated many injuries. Granted that was a very extreme circumstance but if I was having a heart attack on a city street corner and someone passing by knew and administered CPR to me even if they didn’t have a current CPR certification, at least somebody tried to do what they could to save a life. I know my family would be grateful and not sue. When the professionals arrive let them go to work and stay out of their way but if waiting around and not acting means somebody dies, then do what you can and to hell with the attitudes others have.

Just out of curiosity, have you taken a First Aid Course, and if so, how recently?

I used to be a Saint John Ambulance of Canada instructor, and our First Aid Training emphasized the importance of bystanders having proper first aid training and the willingness to administer basic first aid and CPR when necessary. The canadian Red Cross manual is entitled "The Vital Link" and clearly indicates the importance of the first aid-trained bystander in filling the gap between the discovery of a medical emergency and the arrival of EMS.

In Canada, at least, the so-called Good Samaritan laws protect you unless you do something that is clearly negligent. I don't know what it's like in the US but I believe the Red Cross does cover legal liability in its training, more so than Saint John Ambulance.

All First Aid training emphasizes that you should not intervene if it puts you at risk. Headlines like "11 drown saving chicken; chicken survives" may seem funny to you, but when this really happened in Egypt, I bet the widows and orphans of the men who died in a well-meaning but misguided rescue attempt weren't laughing very hard. Of course, if you know the person is going to die unless you risk your life to save them, and you choose to do so, then I salute you; the danger is that if you don't at least stop and make that a conscious decision, then there is a grave risk that you may turn a casualty into a fatality. (The guy who got stuck in the well trying to rescue his chicken probably would have survived if he hadn't had 10 well-meaning relatives sitting on top of him.)

As far as getting a 2-day course on rescuing people in trapped building, my advice would be "Don't!" In an earthquake, maybe going in and administering first aid would be acceptable, but if you start shifting rubble around, you might precipitate a collapse that would kill you and the people you're trying to save. (If the building's on fire, that's a different story, of course.)

I'm not sure if this addresses your points or not. In Canada, I don't see any organized attempts to discourage people from taking First Aid courses by EMS personnel trying to protect their "turf". Maybe things are different in the States, but I'm inclined to disbelieve it.

I put out a car fire in a garage, damaged my hand doing it. The FF/EMTs were grateful for the help and turnover when they arrived, the neighbors thought I should just have called the FD. Oh, the bedrooms over the garage would have been toast by then. Same incident a week or so ago took out 1/3 of the house.

Witnessed and stopped for a motorcycle/auto accident. Tended to the rider (severe lacerations). Off duty EMTs stopped a little while later. PD was useless when I needed him to spell me on bleeding control, required instruction.

Friend of a friend of a friend blew most of his hand off with a M-80. I was first responder, friend drove.

All that with training and attitiude I got from Boy Scouts.