I know many of us lament the lack of preparedness knowledge and training among the general population. We snidely make comments about “Darwin Award” winners and “PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER.” when someone is injured or killed through their own ignorance or mistakes. But it seems to me that part of the blame lies in the fact that our society seems to be more and more distrustful of the role of the private citizen. We see this in the attitude of some professional Search and Rescue personnel, who warn us not to attempt any rescues on our own but rather wait for them to arrive. Otherwise, they say, “there will be two bodies to haul out”. We see this from some law enforcement professionals, for whom many times self defense is equated with vigilantism, or worse. This sort of thing is then repeated as gospel by the all-wise media. It should come as no surprise then that some citizens, hearing this sort of thing over and over from people who should know better, simply come to believe that they are better off leaving these life or death decisions to somebody else.

Now I don’t for one minute doubt that professional SAR people are much better at rescuing victims than I am. If they happen to be on the scene when I need them, then of course I am going to defer completely to them. But if I have loved ones trapped in some collapsed building and there are no rescue personnel on the scene, then I’m going in. Period. Knowing that, would it not be better if I had some knowledge about what to do in that situation? What to watch out for? Is it too much to ask that my government not try to frighten me into staying on the sidelines?

We all know that there are many situations, both urban and wilderness, that could be made more survivable for the general public if they would just take the time to learn, train, and prepare. We know that the tools to do this are readily available on this site and others. What is needed is a change of attitude from government--including the various Emergency Response agencies--and the media. The old saying “lead, follow, or get out of the way” comes to mind.

Regards, Vince

Vince, Randy and others,

If my comments regarding the efforts of CERT members and the role they might play have given the impression that their assistance is not welcome or needed, I apologize, that was not my intent. Just as ETS and this forum is devoted to the proper preparation, skill development and realistic expectations, my comments regarding disaster response was not to deter anyone from seeking and obtaining the training, skills and equipment to be of service during a disaster. To the contrary, I always encourage everyone to obtain training, skills and equipment, which would enable him or her to be of service. That has always been my goal with assisting Fire Departments, Red Cross, Civil Defense units in Ecuador, scouting groups, etc. to become self-sufficient individuals, comfortable with the necessary training, skills and equipment to help not only themselves but to be of service to others.

There is no doubt, that worldwide, more “civilians” rescue fellow citizens immediately after a disaster then all of the Rescue/Fire/USAR/SAR groups do collectively. With that said, realize that based upon personal experience and published data, that in certain types of rescue conditions, more, would be rescuers (both civilian and professional) are injured or killed then original victims. Many on this forum have pointed out that it is better to avoid placing one’s self in a situation, which will result in a survival situation. I have no doubt that I too would, if my family were in a situation, requiring rescue, jump in and attempt to rescue them, prior to the arrival of any Fire/Rescue personnel. Hopefully, I would use some of my training to reduce potential injury to others or myself.

With that said, I still have lingering issues and questions regarding the wisdom of placing individuals with some very valuable (since CERT training is available in Spanish, I use it extensively in Ecuador), but generalized training and with minimal protective equipment into situations where the danger outweighs the benefit of entering a hazardous area/structure. True protective equipment can run into the hundreds and thousands of dollars, making do with inexpensive alternatives is, again, just my opinion, courting a potentially deadly outcome.

As to what any individual can do to be of service; as many have stated, in numerous threads, First Aid, CPR, CERT, survival courses would all be of tremendous value. However, the most important skill/knowledge to have is common sense and the ability to recognize when a situation is beyond one’s capabilities and equipment.

Pete

"...the most important skill/knowledge to have is common sense and the ability to recognize when a situation is beyond one?s capabilities and equipment."

That is really the crux of the survival problem, isn't it?

Yet, what Vince says is true. IMHO, the main issue of our government is control of the people. Everything else is way down in second place. Generation after generation, the people DO get trained to let others do their thinking for them. And then, when some kind of "negative situation" develops, everyone wonders why the people are so stupid, yet we still have pompous LEOs (etc) telling people what they can and can't do, no matter what the situation. I am reminded of a fireman who grabbed a woman who was preparing to leave the path of a firestorm (Oakland? Malibu?) and literally carried her off when she opened her front door. The woman fortunately went ballistic and the fireman had to let go. She WAS evacuating, but she was determined to take her blind husband with her. The fireman never bothered to ask if there were other people in the house.

The face of a situation often isn't a true representation of the situation itself.

Now, let's move on to Vigilante Justice.... <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sue

Keep in mind, that in most of the country, emergency services (Fire, Rescue and EMS) are performed/staffed by volunteers. Professionally trained, as most must meet the same training/certification/licensing standards as their career counterparts. In my mind this is the citizenry fending for themselves though collective agreement and the desire to be of service. Yes, the government in many cases controls the training/certification/licensing standards, but it is still up to average Joe/Jane to decide to get involved and make a difference.

As to the actions of any emergency services provider, tunnel vision is a well-documented phenomenon, whether career or volunteer, to which the individual must constantly guard against. Even with extensive training, the heighten level of excitement will often cause individuals to ignore hazards or changing conditions around them, resulting in injury or death. That is why all Incident Command Structures regardless of the current terminology always have a Scene/Incident/Technical Safety Officer, whose main job is to look at all operations from a dispassionate point of view with regard to the rescue/suppression operations and concentrate only on safety.

Here is one minor example of a well intention, somewhat trained individual that caused a victim to experience additional discomfort and delay in transport:

Our team responded to a mountain rescue, where an individual had fallen a considerable distance and the patient’s condition warranted a Medevac. We arrived on the scene with the patient in critical condition with head trauma and fractured lower leg. A well-meaning individual with wilderness first aid training placed an improvised splint using a couple of padded tree branches. Good idea, except the branches were just too long to load the patient in the helicopter. We had to remove the splint and reapply a SAM splint that would allow the patient to be transported. This took at least an additional 10 minutes and significant discomfort to the patient. Keep in mind, with a critically injured patient, our goal is to reduce on scene time to 10-15 minutes total, so we can stay within the “Golden Hour” (1 hour from time of injury to arriving at a Trauma Center). Well-intentioned and noble efforts, without understanding the result/implication of such actions can lead to further injury and death.

Pete

Two stories from a few years ago. I was a paramedic and ran ambulance calls for many years. Out of dozens of patients in medical cardiac arrest, I was only able to save ONE to a more or less normal life when CPR had not been done by some non-medical person first (zero saves of trauma cardiac arrests while on the scene, CPR or not). So rather than telling people to "let the professionals handle it", I would much rather have them jump in and do their best immediately. You wait for the ambulance to get there, and you've pretty much signed the death warrant. Citizen involvement is critical - it would be tough to make the 4-6 minute window even if the paramedics were standing across the street with gear in hand!

Another story. This time I was the "citizen help", even though I was a paramedic - certified in a different state - at the time. At 65 mph an individual fell out of the back of a pickup truck right in front of my car. We won't discuss his basic intelligence at this time! Luckily I didn't hit him, and myself, an ER nurse, and a physician were very shortly by his side taking care of him. Amazingly enough he just kindof bounced and skidded and came out relatively unscathed in the end. However, before we really knew that diagnosis, the ambulance rolled up and the attendant said, and I quote, "Let's treat the obvious injuries first". Anybody with medical training should recognize the idiocy of that remark. So much for that particular "professional". Glad it wasn't me he was working on.

Of course there are times when citizen help would be a hinderance or dangerous. Trying to rescue someone clinging to the side of a cliff without the proper gear comes to mind. So each situation has to be evaluated on it's own merits. However, I do agree that the media and many professionals emphasize "stay away" much more than they should.

I boarded at a 'stable' with a barn built for cattle. I'm on the place and the only present worker comes running up talking a barely intelligable mix of english and Mixtec indian. I finally figured out a stallion with a odd sleep disorder had fallen over into the cement slurry feeder and was stuck upside down. My niece called my DVM, who called her Nevada ranch raised husband. I managed to hobble the stallion, halter his head and wrap a protective saddleblanket over his eyes. My DVM and husband arrived, tranqued the horse and we secured the halter to a comealong and got doubled up leadropes around his heartgirth. In short order he popped out like a cork. We walked him to a nearby roundpen and started followup care. MEANWHILE, the mixtec ran to the stable operator's house. Without actually coming out, he had the tree service company who leased vehicle space there drive a cherry picker INTO the barn to lift the stud. He also called 3 other DVMs, the Fire Department, Animal Control, Ventura Sherriff's Office and an animal Psychic <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. WE were quietly working on the horse on one side, when this flying circus descended on the other. In the general melee' the crane operator had manuevered his truck inside the barn and raised the crane to secure said horse. The owner finally showed up, decided to lower the crane- and flipped the switch UP, taking out his barn roof. Later he told the owner ( after demanding payment for damages caused by her stallion) I had pushed the horse over so I could "play the hero" There are times when training, talent and a cool head make utterly no difference <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's a pity you didn't have THAT circus on video!

You must live in a more responsive area than I do. The attitude around here would probably have been "tough luck!"

Sue

Vince:

I seriously admit there are some strong willed people and egos at play within the rescue services, but there are some facts to consider: Note: I won't speak of SAR, or wilderness rescues, but those I am familiar with.

1) In rural America, most highways are simple two-lane strips. In Idaho, we have several of these, of which, the north-south highways have the most traffic on them. People who stop and ?help? block the normal progression of traffic without regarding their own safety (mostly) and without proper warning devices. The new goal of the USDOT is to keep traffic moving to expedite the movement of commerce. Shutting down any highway, for any reason, is considered taboo. Some rescuers have taken this seriously, in part, because many people who stop are interfering and actually not helping. I have seen between five and ten different cars stopped at an accident and keeping the ?rescuers? from parking close enough to the ?scene.? Then there is the possibility of landing a life flight helicopter, which requires a certain amount of ?clear? area. Moving by-standers and others which stop to help out of the way is mostly about civilian safety, not necessarily about distrust of the private citizen. I understand the need to assist if a family member is hurt, but we don?t want you hurt either.

2) Most dispatchers in our area (and others) are trained through the Emergency Medical Dispatch course. They are taught to provide instructions to civilians over the phone for many medical problems in the home. This is a good program and it has helped in some cases.

3) Some people call 9-1-1 from their cellular phones and keep right on driving down the road. They cite personal safety as the reason for continuing. Sometimes; these calls are for someone who has stopped to change a flat tire and ?kicked up? some dust. The caller thought for sure there was an accident, but never stopped to verify one had taken place.

4) The area I work EMS in is considered to be remote-rural, which means, mostly open land. People may not call 9-1-1 from a cellular phone, nor do they always have coverage, so they will stop and take an injured person to the nearest house, or even to the hospital. When asked why, they respond with ?oh, I didn?t think the ambulance came this far out!? That is probably the fault of the local rescue workers who don?t necessarily articulate the coverage area openly to the public, through the media.

My all time favorite one-vehicle rollover came in about 3 summers ago in a rather remote area of the county. The calling party stayed on the scene, but informed us no one was in the car. When rescue personnel arrived; several by-standers were placed into service to assist in searching for the car occupants. About 20 minutes later, an elderly gentleman and his wife came up in a pick-up truck and said the injured party was taken to the hospital by their son, they did not realize the ambulance even came to their road. We called everyone who helped us and explained we ?found? the driver. We thanked them, shook their hands and left the scene. All told we had spent an hour on this call. We later learned the driver had 3 felony warrants, a suspended driver?s license and no insurance, as we say in the business, imagine that! Hmmmmm! He later admitted to calling the guy who helped him, because he knew of the warrants and was avoiding arrest. Surprise, he went anyway! Gotta love that one! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Take care,

Stargazer

"If we believe in absurdities, we shall commit atrocities - Voltaire"

I apologize if you got the impression that I was specifically referring to you or your comments regarding CERT. I was not. What I am talking about is the increasing idea that only those individuals under formal control of "the authorities" should assist in any way, because they alone somehow have the skills, training, and common sense to get the job done. That sort of thinking will only result in the "us vs. them" attitude that seems to permeate the ranks of our public servants these days.

One thing that could be done to alleviate this attitude is to return the word "civilian" to its original meaning: someone not serving in the armed forces. My father was a police officer for 30 years and I never heard him use that term. He instead used "citizen" when speaking about non-LEO's. But then again I've even heard the word "citizen" bandied about somewhat contemptuously these days.

As far as people getting in over their heads, look at the bigger picture. If citizens were publicly encouraged to help in emergency situations instead of being publicly scorned, then maybe more people would prepare themselves, or even seek formal training. I think then that the benefits would outweigh the cost.

Regards, Vince

I could not agree more, that everyone’s involvement in an emergency would be an intelligent use of resources. The problem, to some degree has been the fault of the public themselves and the litigious nature of society. If, I as an EMS/Rescue provider turn the care of a patient (could be as simple as “here hold direct pressure on that wound” or “could you help me carry the patient down the stairs”) to a non-trained citizen, I leave the Fire Department, Line Officers, myself and family open to major legal and possibly criminal liability not only from the patient, but from the person (who may have volunteered to help) I directed to perform some action. This is true whether it medical care or helping in a rescue i.e. crowd control, “help pull on that line”, “help us lift and carry the patient down the stairs/trail”. This atmosphere may, in part be the reason LEO/Fire/Rescue/EMS personal ask you to clear the area and not become involved.

I have no doubt egos come into play; even within the Fire Service there are issues between career and volunteers or LEOs and Rescue personnel. However, to assume that Public Safety personnel think that "they are all that and no else can be of benefit”, is just as wrong.

I wish CPR, First Aid and basic life survival skills were universally taught and required in High School, so every citizen could gain a greater degree of independence and self-sufficiency, but until that day comes, I am thankful for the thousands of LEO’s, EMS/Fire and Rescue personnel who, whether career or volunteer, are there to be of service in time of crisis.

As I indicated, volunteers, who take the time and effort to obtain the training and then invest many hours of their personal time in helping their communities, provide most of the EMS/Fire/Rescue services in this county. If you want to be involved, there are many opportunities to do so. If you want to see a change in attitude, join up and become an instrument of change.

Pete