A little side note on learning fire by friction. When you get really frustrated (like I once did) and you start thinking that it simply isn't possible to acheive fire by friction and everyone that says it is must be lieing, then take youre spindle and secure it to a handheld power drill then drill that puppy in to your fireboard and see how you'll make a nice coal in about 5 seconds <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. What does this acomplish you ask? Well for me it gave me the will and determination to keep pluggin away at the bow drill method until I got it. Now I'm pretty darn good with a bow drill and sort-of starting all over again with trying to learn to reliably make a coal with a hand drill. Some day.... Some day... <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />