Susan:

Bad move as the need to lift the foot that high gives away your intentions. Aim for the ankle, even if you don,t break it, a scraping blow to the boney area is very painful.

For a woman, I recommend what I like to call "The Spider Monkey Attack". Rush the guy and throw your left arm over his right shoulder and dig your nails into his shirt and/or body and hold tight as you press your chest diagonally across his chest and bury your head into his left armpit area and lock your teeth on his shirt and/or his body. Your right hand is free to swing continuously into his groin, preferably with a sharp and/or cutting object. The position of your body makes it very hard for him to pummel you or push you away. After you have stabbed or sliced him up enough for him to notice that he is bleeding, let him push you away and as you disengage, look at his groin area and say, " Oh my God, I cut it off"! When he looks down, slash him across the top of the eyebrows and run like hell. The blood flowing into his eyes will keep him from chasing you and he will still be trying to assess the groin damage.

It is a great manuver for a smaller statured person to use against a larger individual.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter, it SOUNDS good, but I think I need to see a demonstration....

Actually, the old knee-kick can really work, & when it works, it REALLY works -- you sure don't have to repeat yourself. Two women came out of the place in L.A. where they had learned it, and were jumped by 5 guys. One of the women panicked and ran off screaming and a couple of blocks later nearly got run over by a police car. The officer goes back to the scene to find 4 guys gone, one guy still there, screaming in agony, and one woman, still on her feet, yelling "It works! It works!"

Sue

Sue you must have gone to some of the same places I've been. I have taught that trick off and on for well over 30 years. It only takes 15 pounds of pressure to dislocate the knee. If you can't kick that hard you ptrobably can't walk. Thje best thing about it is the ankle kick and or shin scrape only works if the other person can feel the pain. But dislocate or worse the knee and even if the jerk is on drugs an can't feel it they can't chase after you very fast is the leg keeps folding up. No knee no support.

Are you folks talking SIDE kick or FRONT kick to the knee for MAX effectiveness or just ANY kick to the knee joint?

I've some self-defense practice . . . so I am interested in whatever personal experience/account/story/field info that anyone can point us to please.

Arde:

The way Raspy is describing it, it would have to be a side kick. The way Susan described it, I can't tell, but only a side kick from an inexperienced individual could do sufficient damage. Remember the figure skater that got a direct unexpected pipe to her knees and how little effect it had on her.

The reason I suggested "the spider monkey" manuver is that untrained, and even trained but not regularly practicing individuals will not be able to manuver and use such a kick against the average mugger because the mugger is usually watching for defensive moves.

Avoidance first, capitulation never, especially if they want you to go to a secondary crime scene by promising not to hurt you if you cooperate.

Bountyhunter

You'll be wanting to take your best credit card, because you can buy anything in NYC, including heaps of cool survival gear!
<img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Right answer!!!!!!!!! And if you are in Brooklyn and see Orange/Blue ambulance stop by and say hi, maybe I will be in it. Just say ETS very quickly and do ETS secret handshake or I be calling for back up <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The way I was taught to do the kick was to stand sideways to the oncoming attacker and kick out with the bottom of your heel in a pushing movement, kind of like stomping on a branch to break it. They said don't be wimpy about it -- jamb the sucker's kneecap right through his leg.

I suspect that a kick to the side of the knee takes less pressure, as I had a *dog* do it to me unintentionally. All he did was come at me at a run, then swing his hindquarters into the side of my knee as he took off again. The pain was awful and I couldn't walk even a step, and he didn't hit me as hard as I would try to kick an attacker. I stood there, thinking I would still be there in fall, when I saw a neighbor and yelled for her to go inside & get my Mom's walker.

With a good kick, I'll bet you'd be talking some extensive surgery.

As for telegraphing the move, many a guy has been kicked higher with considerable effectiveness, and I suspect that a guy would suspect that's what you were aiming for, rather than his knee.

OTOH, I haven't been in many brawls, so I will bow to this forum's other participants in that respect. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Sue

Yes, definitely bring your credit card with the biggest limit, plus a healthy amount of cash. New York is expensive.

The general fear and loathing I see here regarding New York City is quite amusing. My family got off the boat in NYC back in the 1920's and never left. Although I myself now live in the Philadelphia area, I am a native-born New Yorker, and I did go to high school in Manhattan while living in Queens (College Point, to be exact, and Stuyvesant Class of 1986). No city on the face of the earth is probably safer than New York City. It's quite surprising, really, how New Yorkers will help each other and visitors out. Not to mention the huge NYPD and NYFD (my grandfather was a Battalion Chief).

And, of course, crime since the reign of Rudy has been pretty low. Just don't carry a firearm or a locking knife longer than 3 7/8" (4" is the limit). You will notice that most locking knives on the market are no longer than 3 7/8" for just this reason. The NYC Custom Knife Show posts big signs concerning the laws of NYC...

Oh, and buy some subway tokens. They're going out of style quickly, and the subway really is the best way to get around.

Especially in the post-9/11 NYC, New Yorkers really know how to pull together when needful. Yes, there are some bad areas, but you probably won't find your way to them--they're off the beaten track...well, except for Times Square--I wouldn't expose children to that pit of Disney iniquity!

Go see Ground Zero, if you haven't already. Go to the top of the Empire State Building (actually, you might want to avoid carrying a knife to the tourist spots). Go see Lady Liberty. Go to Central Park (but not alone, at night). Drink it in--it's the Center of the World.