From a recent post by jet on another thread...<br>"... Survival starts with preparing for the expected. On this forum, over and over again, people will ask other people, "What kinds of situations are you expecting to have to survive? What types of conditions are you likely to encounter?"<br><br>If you are preparing to go for a three day hike during the summer in an area that is currently seeing 30 days over 100F in a row and counting, you begin by preparing for the expected... heat..."<br><br>This got me thinking about where I put my effort in survival skills training. I see many threads here extolling the virtue of learning basic camp-craft from shelter building to fire-making and have learned much. I am not a pilot so the most likely wilderness adventures that I will encounter will either be places I walked into or very rural auto failures of some form or another. In either case I don't expect (short of teotwawki) to encounter a long enough departure from civilization to run through more than a couple of match books and certainly not long enough to drain a bic lighter. Nonetheless I have spent about an hour and a half each saturday morning for more than a month making tea in my driveway in order to learn various methods of setting and starting a fire with various ever-more primitive methods.<br><br>Anyway, to the question; I consider the more expected situations of an auto wrek or loss of utilities due to fire or storm much more likely than any of the others so, as a father of two young children who often accompany me into the wilderness and a husband of a lovely woman who relies upon me for protection and production, I have taken up the Basic EMT class and technician HAM (amateur radio) course and lisence. How many others on this forum consider this type of training as survival oriented as basic fire-making and what is the experience with the utility of such training? ( I am new to both fields and haven't yet passed the EMT Basic lisence - no I am not chainging careers I like being an egineer)

I would consider that any skills to do with life saving and preservation (especially your own or that of your loved ones) to be essential in a survival situation. In any kind of survival setting, medical needs are top priority and the others like fire /warmth & sustanence / signalling come after, so I think that you've got the priorities right.

Yeah, what JET and Trusbux said...<br><br>We all have our personal circumstances (and interests) to consider. I think your EMT course is a great idea, especially because you have a family. And I think there's been no harm done "playing" in your driveway.<br><br>I guess I like the phrase "emergency preparedness" better than "survival". (I refer to the gear I make our Scouts carry as "Be prepared" gear, not "survival" gear...) I hugely enjoy practicing "wilderness survival" skills and have had occasions when some or many of those skills were gladly called into service. Discounting professional experiences, our recreational pursuits have given us opportunities (?) to exercise our skills to varying degrees - but we were prepared for those events.<br><br>And other, non-wilderness emergencies ranging from environmental effects to the scary things active and imaginative kids do to themselves (uh, and us "adults", too). Yeah, I think you're on a good track. Leave yourself time to play, too <grin>.<br><br>Last comment - "bug out" is a last-resort plan option for us. Planned for, but not prefered. "Bugging in" is number one with us, as JET mentioned. Part pragmatic, part philosophical (we're part of a community and feel some obligations in that regard).<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Scouter Tom<br><br>

Based on my experience, at some point in raising your children and protecting your family, you will thank your lucky stars for taking EMT. First aid and first responder level situations have easily been the most used portion of my "survival skills" over the years.<br><br>Most of us are not exposed to situations which will require outdoor skils like fire lighting or shelter building, but we all are surrounded 24/7 by potential medical situations. Here are some I can recall:<br><br> plumber next door falls off roof - lying on ground in a pool of blood (two months ago)<br> father in law mentions brief episode of chest pain after exertion (yup, it was a coronary, fortunately mild)<br> five year old daughter is riding a bike - falls off and comes up with a depressed skull fracture in the left temporal area. We were working at Canyon de Chelly National Monument at the time and medical assistance was rather marginal. (thirty years ago)<br><br>A good firiend of mine was taking a CPR course (with my encouragement) - split between two days. While she was grocery shopping after the first half of the class, a lady in the supermarket goes suddenly unconscious and collapses....(about fifteen years ago)<br><br>I took my initial first aid training years ago while in college. It was part of Phys ed, and geared toward organized athletics. I kept getting blank stares when I would ask about procedures when the ambulance was more than fifteen minutes away. Training now is much improved and more real world.<br><br>Be sure your kids get trained early and often, as well. It is a useful life skill which should be taught much more broadly than it is. Too many people rely on the crap they see on TV.

After studying the material on this web site, especially the section for children, I am assembling a fanny pack kit for my younger children. (My oldest is a Boy Scout and will have a full PSK). I have modified the contents for their age. For example, they are too young to be entrusted with knives and fire starting equipment. Having such tools in their possession would likely put them at greater risk of harm by their own inexperience. But I have (will have) some basic gear suitable for the circumstances they might run into, which would be to become separated from me some how for a short period (hopefully) of time.<br><br>I don’t have the list handy, but I am including:<br><br>Whistle<br>Emergency Rain Poncho (Orange)<br>Space Blanket<br>Chemical Light stick in plastic toothbrush tube.<br>Small first Aid Kit<br>Red Bandanas<br>Small flashlight<br>High energy food (Gorp, etc.)<br>Water Bottle<br><br>We are planning a camping trip this spring where I will practice using this gear as a “game.” The key will be to teach them what to do if they become separated. In short, stay put & blow on your whistle three times every fifteens minutes. The poncho is for foul weather or warmth should they be lost and darkness falls. The space blanket will be for a temporary shelter in case of darkness. The light stick is more of a night light to ward off darkness. I know I can’t ward off fear, but I hope to teach them to be prepared for it so they don’t make life-threatening decisions because of it. As been said here many times already, your brain is your best survival tool, even for a young child.<br>

I'm just writing this to again emphasize first aid learning. I have been trained in both "first responder" and a higher level of first responder, "Combat Lifesaver." I have used my CLS skills more in the civilian world with kids then I have in the military. The basics of basics first aid can be taught by your local Red Cross for fairly cheap and with only a little time. It teaches mostly CPR and some very basic first aid. If you want really decent First aid training, you might want to think about taking the First Aid course at your local Community Collage if you have one near by. That route is a little more expensive, but gives much, much more in depth training. Where the Red Cross course tells you a little bit about how to do everything, the CC course teaches why the body does the things it does, and how to best react. It also gives more practice, which considering the brain reacts almost strictly to training in a high stress situation, is a lifesaver (pun intended). <br><br>Once you have this wonderful training, I would suggest hitting up your local "medical supply" retailer. Eugene where I life has a bunch. They sell all the little things in 1sies and 2sies, and have a much better selection than your average major pharmacy. Also, you can find the gear cheaper, and the employees often have the training to give you advice on what your looking for. Then design a pack/or case that is easy to grab, and easy to organize. The idea being that somebodies life may be riding on you getting your gear and employing it as quickly as possible. The stuff you stock in your case should be the things you are completely trained to use. Oral airways, blood pressure cuffs and the like are of no value to you if you don't know how to use/employ them properly. I have used my kit so many times, that I have absolutely no regrets about the money or time that I have devoted to my kit.<br><br>My kit is a large EMT style tackle box that I picked up on sale (thank God, it would have been real expensive otherwise), and I have everything that I am trained to use inside except for IV and oral airways. I have a selection of bandages starting real small and going to the abdominal sized pads. I have some high speed "tape" which is self sticking but in fact not gluey that is bright orange, perfect for making pressure dressings and bright enough to attract the attention of EMTs when they arrive, if your so lucky. I also carry Sterile water. In the event of a major burn, the only thing you should apply is sterile water. Pouring unsterile water on a burn can in fact do more damage due to the risk of infection. Sterile water being a little more expensive than plain old bottled water, has more uses, which negates the added cost. It is also just as drinkable which is nice. Don't bother getting special burn ointments because if the burn is bad enough, and the casualty needs to go to the hospital the "Pro's" will just scrape it off, which would hurt like H.E.double hockey sticks. They also sell instant ice packs which I have used more than once out of my kit.<br><br>I would also invest in a SAM splint. Too many uses, negligable space. You can cut it into strips to make finger splints (ask me to tell you the story of a kid who had a broken finger some time, he just wouldn't hold still). <br><br>Also in my kit I have a pair of good EMT shears a good flashlight with a spair set of batteries, a couple of red lightsticks, a white lightstick, a couple of "emergency blankets" (shock), a "instruction manual w/ the information regarding the stuff easily forgotten (poisoning and what not), coins for a pay phone. <br><br>My kit is kept stable in my trunk in a special place reserved specifically for it. I keep it there because I will more than likely have my car near by when I need it. All my friends and relatives who normally travel with me, have been briefed on where it is and how to best get at it, just in case I need to rush in to "get a handle on a situation." That way I can get moving and see what's going on while my kit comes to me. <br><br>Anyway, I'm going to get off this little tangent now. Have a good one.<br><br><br><br>

Thanks for the info, Koz.<br><br>I have a standard first aid kit in the car and I carry a portable one in my pack, although neither is likely as comprehensive as your's.<br><br>My pack kit started as a Army surplus kit that I augmented (I even threw in a little sewing kit ). But I don't have items like SAM splints or EMT shears. I look into upgrading before my next trip. <br><br>A question regarding sterile water, would water treated with iodine or KNO4 be considered sterile?

While water treated with iodine and KMnO4 would be bacteriologically safe, it would not be considered sterile. Furthermore, impurities in the KMnO4 and iodine as well as the chemicals themselves alter the pH (acidity / alkalinity ) of the water restricting its use somewhat in a situation where you need sterile water ( i.e. wound irrigation or eye irrigation especially )<br>All that being said, iodine and KMnO4 in water is better than non sterile water. And non sterile water may sometimes be better than no water at all.

Hey, me, too (Combat Lifesaver). Good training. Sounds like your kit is better maintained for stockage than mine, except I do keep some IVs and suturing materials for certain trips. Have to re-stock IVs from time to time and they come indoors during the cold season, so they are not with me all the time.<br><br>That orange colored elastic bandage stuff - oddly enough, that's the main color I stock also. I got it a bit less expensively by getting it as vet supplies, tho - name brand (3M), but a bit cheaper. Very useful stuff. Stuck in my paradigm, tho - biggest dressings I carry are field dressings 'cause I know how to use those.<br><br>While I cannot say that I've had more uses with kids than military, I've had plenty of kid incidents - not all our kids, but mostly - once the neighbors figure you know what to do, they tend to call on you first. Let's see, there was a fractured skull, complete with CSF leaking from an ear, driving to ER with one hand while holding pressure point on another with the other (that was a LOT of stitches and frankly, my suturing is better than the job they did - but most docs wig out if you suture - they'd rather let the wound get necrotic while your kid waits forever in ER once you get the bleeding stopped - grrr!) - anyway, the list goes on; I agree that moms and dads should take formal instruction. And keep the kids trained age-appropriate. One of ours saved his sister's eyesight once, thanks to that.<br><br>I agree with your post completely. Good tip on the sterile water, too. As for Willie's question - it depends on who you ask and what the circumstances are. Minor lacerations that are going to be allowed to form granular tissue and heal up unassisted can be cleansed with munincipal tap water with or without soap (soap better, followed by clear rinse). If the wound is going to require any intervention in the way of closure, trimming, extraction of large objcts, etc., best to simply control the bleeding and transport to proper medical facilities if you can. The "we're three days from the nearest road" situations are a heck of a lot more than I am willing to discuss here and I have found that doctors with no first-hand experience in those situations often disagree amongst themselves about that anyway. Reassuringly, I have found that docs with that first hand experience seem to be in very close agreement, though.<br><br>I have found the longer duration Red Cross courses to be very good over the years - well worth the time, expecially if you've never had formal training. My Dad had all of us take some of those when we were teens, and I have had occasion in later years to re-visit some of those courses. The absolutley best, most practical, most useful first aid training I've ever had, though, was that given to me by the Army. Dunno if it's as good nowadays, but I sure hope so. <br><br>Regards,<br><br>Scouter Tom, a.k.a. "Doc Dad"

Scouter Tom,<br><br>Sounds like you've been there, a few time. I don't carry sutures because I am not trained on their use. I do carry butterfly sutures for those times when you can't necessarily get to "professional" help, or when I'm dealing with a stubburn casualty (I don't need a doctor, that's not muscle tissue, just give me a band-aid). <br><br>I don't carry IV stuff in my vehicle for 2 reasons. 1, it's hard for me to get ahold of the equipment. Lines and needles are easy, bags are hard and they expire. And 2, liability. If I had the equipment, and a serious casualty who I was not related to, I would be tempted to use the equip/training. Then I would promptly get sued. When I have my CLS bag at home, around my family, that's a different story. I wouldn't even hesitate. No liability.<br><br>Anyway, the SAM splint is great. I highly recommend it. Don't be cheap either, get the big one. They can be used for everything from C-spine injuries to hip fractures, from leg breaks to finger splints. All you need to do, if you've never used one before is get it, then play with it till you know everything about it. The main thing to remember is to crease or bend it in order to make it rigid. Then you can splint any body part.<br><br>Regarding kids versus military, my civilian job is as an educational assistant in a Special Ed classroom. Even with the first aid class that every employee is required to take, no one seems to retain any of that information. Plus the school nurses are now on an on-call basis. They have 3 schools they have to attend. They are never, ever there when you need them. <br><br>Have a good one. Hope this is of interest.<br><br>