I should have posted this prior to Thanksgiving, but ... didn’t. The TSA thugs have really ramped up the unpleasantness.

This is a head’s up to all divorced dads who take their kids to the airport to go to the ex’s, and want to wait with them until the plane leaves: You WILL get strip searched. You WILL get hassled by the screenernazis even though you are not getting on the plane. You WILL be questioned as to why you do not have a “legitimate” ticket. You WILL be humiliated and degraded in front of your children, causing them additional anxiety during an already stressful situation. You PROBABLY WILL run into at least one screenernazi who wants to bar you from the gate area entirely because you do not have a “real” ticket. You MAY be searched again as you are leaving the area, even though you did not get on the plane and have been in a “secured” area.

And the airlines wonder why more people aren’t flying …

I wonder how much you lose when you return a refundable ticket? I mean, you could buy a refundable
ticket, walk through to the gate, see your family off, then come back and get your money back. There's
probably a non-refundable fee, but it sounds like the net result is paying a little money to avoid a
huge hassle. Do it online even.

Which, since it's possible to do this, even easy to do this, makes you wonder why they think
terrorists won't think of it.

I'm beginning to think that all the so called "security" isn't so much theater as butt-covering. When
another Event occurs, They'll be able to say they did everything they could, but those darn terrorists
are just so smart....

>>Which, since it's possible to do this, even easy to do this, makes you wonder why they think
terrorists won't think of it.

Why would a fanatical terrorist who is planning to sacrifice his life for the greater glory of Allah be worried about getting a refund? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Don't tell me, I don't want to know .... <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I'm tempted to just say "Exactly." and leave it at that, but it wasn't obvious the first time, so...

For some reason, TSA seems to think that wanting to go to the gate area, without a ticket, is suspicious
behavior. Also, purchasing a one way ticket, or using cash to purchase a ticket are also well known
"red flags". So, purchasing a round trip, refundable ticket simply to gain access to the gate area
makes as much sense for a suicidal terriorist as it does for a Dad to see his kids off.

Or, to come at it a different way, terrorists who have no intention of flying can gain access to the gate
area with zero additional trouble. Simply buy a ticket. So why does the TSA hassle people without tickets
who want to do the same thing?

I've ranted about TSA's policies in a couple of posts, and I wanted to talk about why I feel
some discussion about such things is related to why we all come to this place.

My first flight after 9/11, I was stopped and searched. I knew security would be looking through bags,
so I fedexed what would have normally been my carry-on to my desitnation. Clever, right? Nope.
I was pulled aside and given a thorough going over because I didn't have enough baggage.

Agree with the TSA or no, one thing is very clear... it's better to fly beneath their radar. Don't stand out,
don't fit any profile other than the one most likely to get you through to your destination with the
least amount of hassle. And it's difficult to know, based on individual experience, exactly what that
profile is. If enough of us talk about what we did and how we were treated, maybe we can learn
enough from that to minimize the hassle factor.

There are plenty of news articles about how seemingly innocent behavior is enough to get you hauled
away in handcuffs. My personal favorite is the one about the school teacher arrested for carrying a
bookmark (commercially manufactured and sold as a bookmark) which one TSA droid felt looked
like a weapon link Sure charges were eventually dropped, but she missed her flight, and had to be
arrested in front of all those other people. Stressful? Yeah, I'm guessing a little.

If buying a ticket I don't intend to use allows me to slip through the weirdness at the security checkpoint
so I can meet my parent's flight, I'll do it. If I know ahead of time that Arc AAA's are ok to take aboard,
I'll feel better taking mine. If I discover that a fire steel is a no-no that'll get you pulled aside and
searched, I'll leave mine at home. Whatever it takes to make them put me in the "harmless" bin and
look at someone else. Urban survival.

</rant>

You guys are scaring me. I haven't been on an airliner since 2000, but I'm going to be on one in January. I've chosen to fly myself on vacations, but this time I'm going to the mountains for a snowboarding vacation, and the weather is likely to be too bad for a small plane. If the snow is good, the flying is bad. I'd really feel like crap if they got dumped on and I couldn't get there! Plus, the MEA is 14,000 for all routes going to Jackson, WY.

Do they get suspicious if you bring along WAC charts? I like to look out the window and follow along on a chart, so I know what I'm seeing. How about a GPS?

I'm sorry, sir, but could you come with me? We KNOW you're a terrorist, because you want to be able to precisely fix the location where you will assemble your IED and bring down the aircraft ... seriously, though, they don't NEED a reason to hassle you, I'm convinced most of them really enjoy their god-like power.

The real insult of commercial air travel started well before political terrorism gave excuse to the terror of bad service and manners. The old White Star Line failed miserably to protect it's clients on R.M.S.Titanic, but at least the orchestra dressed in tails and provided music. I used to fly the old PSA airline from San Francisco to L.A. on frequent leaves home. I became good friends with Wilheminia, a senior attendant. 'Willie' thought I was hopeless , dressing in uniform when it was unpopular, bringing her flowers from Market Street, reading some half forgotten author inflight and commenting how the cloud cover over the lights of L.A. looked like the Peter Pan ride at Disnyland. But she always reserved my seat over the wing by the emergency door and knew how I took my $1 whiskey. Willie perished in the San Diego crash and I stopped flying soon after. Airport security is vulgar, but no less than the behavior of people driving to that same airport. Motorcars were once seen as an elegant escape from crowded trains and dusty carriages. Now they are T.V. wrestling mentality armoured cars with insular environments the envy of NASA. I've taken to walking again. I carry a proper brit 'brolly.' God have mercy on any surly dog, neon swathed Lance Armstrong wannabe or self indulgent Cellphone Borg. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I dont know about charts but absolutely do NOT bring a GPS. Don't even mention the word GPS or you'll get the "royal" treatment!

I am sorry for your experience and understand you wnating to see your kids off etc..

BUT!

A) NOBODY! should be allowed past security without a ticket for any reason period.
B) This is the way its gonna be so get used to it.
C) If you think this is bad try flying with El AL
D) There will be another 911 so belly up to the slots and hope you don't hit the jackpot.
E) Memories are real short
F) Most of the same anti TSA this and thats cried foul on Sept 12 so grains of salt must be taken with these chronic whiners
G) If your kids were on the planes on Sept 11 youd be singing a different tune.
H) flying is a privilage and is not guaranteed by anyones constitution.
I) I think security and the ignorance of the TSA doesn't go far enough this is no game and pleasantness doesn't count. I anin't shopping a Macy's.
J) Security maybe a joke and butt covering but its all we got

Conclusion:

Take A Bus, Simple.

Flip

I'm glad to see you have all the answers.
As for your flippant, Take a bus remark, that attitude is a big part of the problem.

Not trying to incite you more, but these people are doing thier jobs. You don't have to like it. Maybe they aren't perfect, but niether are you nor I. Try to imagine the ammount of crap they get every day. The insults "screenernazi" is a good one. You may only be posting it here, but I hear it on the radio and I am sure these people here it said to thier faces. Yes you or the person you observed this happening to may have had a tough time, but I doubt they were "strip searched". Being asked to remove your shoes (even though the detector didn't go off) and having you unbuckle your belt and being manually checked is far from a strip search. This is a small price to pay for the PRIVELAGE to fly. There are a lot of problems with this organization, and you can tell yourself that "I would do it differently!" But in the end, pretty much everyone here works for someone else, and these folks with the TSA are for the most part trying to do their jobs to the best of thier ability. Imagine trying to accomplish your job while under incredible public scrutiny over your every action. Try doing it knowing that a mistake could literaly cost the lives of thousands. Yes they have a long way to go, and the learning curve is high. Perhaps next time you may put yourself in their shoes. Take a breath, be thankfull the kids got to mom's house and back in one piece and ask yourself just how much you are willing to go through to see them safely back home again.

No Flames People! <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> The issue here is valid security measures over what is widely perceived to be posturing. Siezing a plastic M1 Garand from a G.I. Joe being taken back to G.B. by a grandmother at LAX case in point. We must also remember that Bin Laden and other members of the Wahabi sect have stated our open society is anathema to their perverted version of islam. They want us to lose our hated freedoms. There are always people with hidden agendas who use world events to promote their own goals. Terrorism in the name of islam is a serious issue, but not the only one. The first renewed commercial flight from the U.S. recently landed in Vietnam. Some of us here remember the day helicopters were being shoved over the side of carriers and fluency in vietnamese will get you faster service at a Little Saigon convenience store and a blank stare at a job interview. Our domestic freedoms were under assault then, and they still are today.

What Isreal has done with El AL is neither posturing nor viewed as a strike against their personal freedoms.

What they have done is make air travel as safe as they can. In other words they have learned from their mistakes and are willing to live with the inconvenience.

True security will never happen if we continue to whimper over grandmas knitting needles.

I think 1000's dead puts more of a damper on ones freedoms don't you?

All perspective I guess.

Flip

Jeep,

Nicely said and thought out.

Thank you

Flip

Anyone can buy a ticket. They're cheap. Why does having a ticket make you less of a risk than
not having a ticket?

Groo:

Maybe Flipper feels that a terrorist that tries and fails might want to cash his ticket back in for his legal defense.

I agree with you that it is silly to think that a terrorist would do anything to raise suspicion. If he has already decided to die, what does he need money for?

Bountyhunter

Again, it's all about appearance rather than actual substance. I agree that bringing a device which is
obviously a GPS is just asking for it. I'll bet, though, that few screeners or flight attendants would
recognize a GPS PCMCIA card, or the external no-display GPS receivers sold for use with mapping
software. You could always record the data while using your laptop for something else, then
plot your flight when you get home. I know, it's not the same thing, but...

Either way, it's going to be tough to get a usable signal without being very obvious you're doing
something weird (mommy, why's that man holding that piece of plastic on the window?)

I've done this before, only with a sectional and on a turboprop from Abilene to DFW. We were low
enough to use the same sorts of checkpoints that'd I use in a 172. I was amazed
by how fast we were moving once I used a chart I was familiar with. :-) :-)

WAC charts are just about right for airliners. Sectionals have more detail than you can see from 30,000 feet.

If you have a laptop, maybe you could scan the charts? Yeah, it'd be a bit of a pain, but it's
definitely a way to bring them with you without being obvious that you have 'em.

You could even size the scans to be the same size as your screen, then set one to be your
desktop background. Set new backgrounds as you move along. Older laptops would be
great for this, since the older LCD displays are tough to read off centerline.

You could also convert the scans to black and white and reduce the contrast to the point
where the charts look like an abstract design or something. Or maybe no longer look
map-like at all.

Oooh! Even better. If you have a digital camera, photograph the charts. On my little 2M pixel
pocket camera, in playback mode, I can zoom waaaaay in. Again, not as good as having the charts, but to
an outside observer, you're just taking a lot of pictures. :-)

You can buy pre-scanned charts now, in GeoTIFF format. Not sure about WAC's, but definetely sectionals. If you don't need up to date, you can even find free ones. Here's one place to get them:

mypilotstore.com

However, I don't have any need for a laptop on this trip, and that's a heck of a lot more bulk that a couple of charts. And why should they allow laptops? After all, they are now powerful enough to design nuclear weapons. Nuke-u-lar weapons on an airplane? OMG!

Why should no one without a ticket be refused past the checkpoint? If you do not trigger any alarms or detectors why are you more of a threat? Should parents assume that airline employees will be attentive to their children without interuption? Who's responsible for my daughter if some pedophile skips his flight and makes off with her while the counter rep is answering your questions? Whether I was allowed to wait by the gate with them or not, if my kids had been on one of the fated 9/11 flights they'd still be dead. (A, G)

If you (and others) think that El Al is so blazin hot, move to Isreal. (C)

There was no TSA on 9/12 so to which chronic whiners do you refer? (F)

You admit that security is a joke and butt covering but you don't think that it goes far enough? What are you, 12? (I, J)

There will be another 9/11? Probably, but then why bother with the jokes and butt covering? (D)

We don't have to just "get used to it". That's the sort of passive attitude that has allowed every totalitarian regime in history to take root. The government is here as our servant, not vice versa. If you can't get used to that perhaps you'd be more at home in China, or North Korea, or Sudan, or........ (B)

Most of these same inane "security" procedures are already starting to be implemented for both rail and bus tranportation, so your conclusion doesn't hold

Ed

This irish king invited the english king over to help against some other irish kings. The major subclan of this king were the Kavanaugh's who embraced english customs more than any other irish family. Then the clan got pushed off their lands by the english plantation known as THE PALE. They petitioned the king without redress. So the Kavanaughs became Gallowglass and the worst of the worst BEYOND THE PALE. They eventually annihilated the english family that took their lands. There was a Kavanaugh with Jeremiah O'Donafin-Rossa and one in the GPO on easter 1916. The first PROVO casualty was a Kavanaugh. I suppose I should have some deep bred, almost genetic aversion to things english. But I don't. That survivor of the GPO told me it wasn't the enlisted tommie he feared in the long run of events, but the potential traitor bicycling next to him in their flying column. When somebody holds up 1000 bloody corpses as reason to surrender my freedom without question I ask if they are descended from any irish kings. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I know people who fly internationally on business who will go to almost any lengths to avoid having to fly through the United States these days, because the offensive attitude of the US airport security is so much worse than almost any other country they fly through.

The fact that they have a job to do should not be interpreted as a license to act capriciously and rudely.

I will concede this point - the fact that they are poorly trained, badly supervised, and have little or no intelligent direction from above is not their fault.

Are things really that bad in Halifax? We haven't annexed Canada yet... or did we? I don't watch the
news much any more.

Flipper;

Why are you opposed to citizens advocating that the government implement real security measures, rather than the stupid eye-candy that is currently being jammed down our throats?

>>A) NOBODY! should be allowed past security without a ticket for any reason period.

Why not? As I pointed out, a terrorist who intends to commit suicide isn't going to quibble about buying a ticket. The September 11th hijackers went first class - not because they wanted to enjoy their last few moments on earth, but because they wanted to be closer to the flight deck.

>>B) This is the way its gonna be so get used to it.

Why should you have to get used to it? America was a democracy, last time I checked. That means the people tell the government what to do, not the other way around.

>>C) If you think this is bad try flying with El AL

The reason El Al is so safe is that their security measures are designed to actually work, not just impress the sheep.

>>D) There will be another 911 so belly up to the slots and hope you don't hit the jackpot.

No, there won't. There will never be another 9/11 - not if you mean that someday a hijacker will take over an airliner and ram it into a highrise building or national monument. If you mean there will be a terrorist attack somewhere in the United States, then you may well be right - but that doesn't justify the stupid and unnecessary (and ineffective) airport screening. In fact, the airport screening may be presenting them with their next target of opportunity.

>>E) Memories are real short

Not sure what you mean by that.

>>F) Most of the same anti TSA this and thats cried foul on Sept 12 so grains of salt must be taken with these chronic whiners

Again, not sure what you mean by that.

>>G) If your kids were on the planes on Sept 11 youd be singing a different tune.

No I wouldn't. I would be demanding security measures that actually work, and that don't kill more people than they save.

>>H) flying is a privilage and is not guaranteed by anyones constitution.

Flying is a necessity. Bankrupting the airline industry by alienating passengers is not in the nation's best interests.

>>I) I think security and the ignorance of the TSA doesn't go far enough this is no game and pleasantness doesn't count. I anin't shopping a Macy's.

Once again, I have no idea what your point is. If you're suggesting that the security screeners should be even more rude and obnoxious than they already are, then I am suggesting that you are confusing officiousness with efficiency.

>>J) Security maybe a joke and butt covering but its all we got

The problem is, it's NOT security. In the thread on Butane lighters, I listed eight security measures which I believe are all far superior to anything the TSA has done. Most of these are implemented by El Al, which is why there has never (I believe) been a successful hijacking of an El Al airliner. I've posted them before, and I'm not going to post them again.

For what it's worth, I hold the following security designations:

Certified Protection Professional, American Society of Industrial Security;
Certified Information Systems Security Professional, International Informations Systems Security Certification Consortium;
GIAC Certified Intrusion Analyst, SANS Institute.

I am also planning to write the exam for the Information Systems Security Engineering Professional designation in February. I have over a quarter of a century experience working in security, including 8 of the last 10 years designing security for military command and control communications systems; and it is my professional opinion that people like Doug Ritter and security consultant/author Bruce Schneier are right, and you are wrong.

I am not opposed to security, as you seem to think. I am opposed to ineffective security that kills more people than it saves. I am opposed to some elected representative with no security training or expertise thinking he can do my job, and botching it. I am opposed to people using "security" as an excuse to settle personal scores or carry out personal agendas.

Trust me, if I believed for one minute that confiscating butane lighters or SAKs, or being rude to a divorced dad who wants to make sure his kid gets on the plane safely, improved the safety of the flying public, the flight and cabin crew, or anyone else, I would be 100% in favour of it. But the sad fact is, I have never yet met a single security professional who thinks it's anything but a waste of people's time.

Have to agree with your observation. Too much government is a bad thing. This is a new organization that is learning and has a very long up hill climb. So far up hill, they may need to go to TIbet and hire some Sherpas. I too hate to fly, and get frustrated when asked to step aside and get to step into the plexiglass zoo container for all to see while you wait your turn for the screener to check you over and swipe your shoes and go through your bag. I hate to fly because of these and other reasons, but work requires it at least 4 times a year, and I have family spread around the country. Driving just isn't an option. I honestly don't blame people for not wanting to enter the U.S. an dhave to deal with the new process. For me personally, I wish the security arrangements were much more strict. The Israelis have it right. Check everyone and everything. Period. No discrimination, no worrying about what the ACLU might think. We now live in a different world like it or not. Accepting change and all that comes with it is not easy nor pleasant. But as they say, change is inevitable.

I will agree that they get little respect. However, they should not be allowed to keep you from carrying items which are on the published list of permited items.

No arguments from me on that. They shouldn't be allowed to do a lot of the things they do, and should be allowed to do a lot of things they aren't. Isn't government beaurocracy great.

No, we don't. We live in the same one we've always lived in. No dangers here that weren't possible
before. We're just a little more aware of a vulnerability we've always had. What is new is our
reaction to it.

The numbers just don't support the kind of response we're giving. Almost 50,000 people
die in the US every year because of traffic accidents. Ho hum. Less than 4000 die in a single, highly
visible event and we invade another country, implement no-fly lists, randomly search
little old ladies and look cross eyed at anyone that would dare try to see family off at the gate.

How 'bout a no-drive list? Now that would save some lives....

Out of respect to the forum, its moderators and viewers, I will let this go. People have their mind set in certain ways, and all the discussion in the world isn't going to change that. Have a safe and happy holiday season and new year everyone.

Considering that the GPS was a key tool used in the 911 attacks, I repeat, don't even think the word GPS at an airport. That's your fair warning. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I realize this is difficult for a non-US citizen to understand however, for many US citizens 1000s dead simply makes us want to stand up for our freedoms even more. My father was in NYCl ess than a block away at the time of the attack. It was quite a while before I knew if he was alright. He lives in NYC with many people whom are no longer with us and many more that lost their families, so you can rest assured that these people (like my father) are no armchair quarterbacks. They were there they suffered and they are angry about the post 911 freedoms they are giving up just like the rest of the country. In the US many of us believe that if we give up too much freedom in the name of security then in fact we have given the enemy what they want. Again Flipper, I realize that not growing up and living inthe USA probably makes this very hard to understand. That is why I try to explain it as clearly and politely as possible.
So to answer you question in short... No, many of us do not, and furthermore it makes us want to exercise those freedoms and fight to keep them even more than before!
Great plan....until buses start blowing up! Where does it end. The answer should proably be..."Right here!"

Hmm, I don't remember hearing about that. How did they use it?

To redirect the aircraft. Of course everything burned up and all witnesses are dead so they are not 100% sure but here's a report about why it is suspected that a GPS was used. This was big news right afterwards. I'm surprised you never heard about it. http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/05/22/hijack.paper.trail/

There was a lot of big news afterwards.

Evidently GPS played a bigger role in the 9/11 attacks than I thought. It's a good idea to pack a compass after all!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,141697,00.html

I apologize deeply. I can't get the link to work. This is the cut and paste from the Fox news Website:

WASHINGTON — President Bush (search) has ordered plans for temporarily disabling the U.S. network of global positioning satellites during a national crisis to prevent terrorists from using the navigational technology, the White House said Wednesday.

Any shutdown of the network inside the United States would come under only the most remarkable circumstances, said a Bush administration official who spoke to a small group of reporters at the White House on condition of anonymity.

The GPS (search) system is vital to commercial aviation and marine shipping.

The president also instructed the Defense Department to develop plans to disable, in certain areas, an enemy's access to the U.S. navigational satellites and to similar systems operated by others. The European Union is developing a $4.8 billion program, called Galileo (search).

The military increasingly uses GPS technology to move troops across large areas and direct bombs and missiles. Any government-ordered shutdown or jamming of the GPS satellites would be done in ways to limit disruptions to navigation and related systems outside the affected area, the White House said.

"This is not something you would do lightly," said James A. Lewis, director of technology policy for the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. "It's clearly a big deal. You have to give them credit for being so open about what they're going to do."

Ditto, Brian, the crap has hit the fan, and we need to put a stop to it (the terrorism, that is) by ANY means necessary, and if that means stepping on our neighbors toes, then SO BE IT. For those who don't want to get their hands dirty or their conscience bruised, stay the heck out of the way.

Troy

P.S. heck wasn't really the word I had in mind

Wildcard163:

You sound like a little guy I have read about who used to sport a bad flat haircut and a little black mustache. He stepped on a lot of toes to achieve his goals and destroyed his own people in the process.

Overreaction at home will split the country involved, especially if the country is the USA.

Also, if you reread Brian's post, I think you will see that he is saying the same thing I have just said but in a different way.

Bountyhunter