Many wilderness camping / hiking texts and forums address the concept of the "10 Essentials". This forum certainly deals with survival and emergency preparedness gear and training in great depth, and I've picked up a lot of great tips and strategies that I've tried to pass along to the Boy Scouts in our troop.

Many of the discussions deal with "personal" gear that you should have available, whether it's your EDC, PSK, BOB, FAK etc. [color:"blue"] The question I have is: What "extra" gear do you recommend carrying if you are the leader of an outdoor excursion? [/color] I find myself bringing a bunch of extra's, beyond my normal individual equipment, to deal with the "What if _____ happens" situations with someone in my group?

Obviously, the type of trip, camping, hiking, canoeing, climbing, etc, will determine some specific equipment needs. I'm just trying to build some basic checklists and guidelines to supplement the information that comes in the "Guide To Safe Scouting" book, and the "Scoutmaster Handbook" that I can share with the other adult leaders in the troop. I was hoping that some of the experienced outdoor leaders reading this forum might provide their thoughts.

Thanks for the help - Ron

Ron,

First - welcome to ETS! And as far as Scouts goes, there are quite a few active Scouters and several Scouts here, so many of us know the jargon...

<sigh> To your question: That all started for me about a month after I got married, when I took my bride on what she describes as her first REAL camping trip - Alaska, January, skis, packs, etc. It was about 10 years after that that we got soft and bought a tent... anyway, I fretted then about what "extra" stuff to carry and I guess it hit its apogee when the kids were 11 - 16 on a winter trip thru the Boundary Waters.

But as for Scouts - knowledge + some extra stuff, gained about at the same time, but DON'T ever let them depend on you and what you may be carrying!

What I do - and I am ruthless about this in a fairly benign way - is make each and every scout responsible. They ALL carry a ready pack or equivalent at all times - meetings, camping, day trips, community events, you name it. They only forget once <grin>. And we check contents regularly and practice with most of the gear. You cut yourself around one of my scouts, and the FIRST thing they're gonna ask you is - "Give me a bandaid out of YOUR FAK so I can patch you up... because MINE is for YOU to use ON ME if I hurt myself - unless you don't have a FAK..." They start fires with BSA HotSparks and tinder they prepared themselves (I'm not even sure they remember how to use matches anymore... yeah, but it's a matter of pride with them to use a spark instead). They always have raingear. Water. Red and white lights (we like our night vision) ETC. Are they perfect? Heck, no! And I'm careful to not be critical if one shows up with something that is just a piece of gee-gaw junk - I just make them use it and nature takes its course... some of the lads are pretty disadvantaged (THANKS AGAIN, PARAMEDIC_PETE!) and I or another adult will sometimes slip a little better bit of gear to one of them when it's appropriate.

I've got a bunch of city boys, most (not all) of whom would never get out past 30 feet from an automobile if it weren't for Scouting, and I truly believe that any of them that have been with us for more than a month can take care of business if they ever get in a bind. Not pretty, not professional, but they can make it. They're good boys.

Let me give you an example - very trivial - of how this feeds back in a positive way. Several of us were at an OA Section Conclave recently. Somewhere on the other side of the reservation, a scout in another unit tore the heck out of his pants - in an embarrassing location. Cltuching the shreds together, he slinked around thru the woods until he found our unit and asked for help. I was amused. "Sam, why did you come all the way over here to find us?" "Because I know your troop carries all the stuff we're supposed to carry..." Of course, he was right, and he was loaned a needle and thread ( a LOT of thread, LoL). And... I have run across that scout 3 times since then and guess what - he's become something of an "apostle" in his troop now and carries what he fancies our scouts carry.

So what do I carry extra now? Not much. I have an extended FAK - not complete; work-in-progress. I carry knife sharpening items that I am comfortable loaning to a scout with a dull knife. Much of the other items I carry above-and-beyond are what I carry anyway. Things like a poncho liner; a military poncho (soon to be replaced by a Tyvek tarp + ground sheet); a couple of HD large garbage bags (JUST IN CASE someone forgets or tears up raingear). A better repair kit than most scouts carry. Umm - I guess I'd have to really paw through my stuff. One of the things to watch out for: Scouts start paying really close attention to whatever "extra" items you may carry, exactly what style or brand of thingamagig, and then decide that they are gonna die if they don't exactly emulate your gear. (only a little hyperbole...) Discourage that as nicely as you can. They can get into a stupid "arms race", expecially those with indulgent parents. I'm almost sorry that I switched to a CamelBak for my daypack...

Hmmm. I think I'll demure for now on more specifics. This is more of a philosophy thing for me - I want our scouts to take care of themselves as much as possible. They get it - there has been more than one duct tape "bandaid" applied to a minor cut because the scout did not want to draw attention to the fact that he FORGOT to replenish his bandaids... and similar expedients. I always compliment the scout for taking care of his problem and then go chew out his Patrol Leader privately for not checking - it works fairly well.

I'll lurk for a few days while you gather some more info from the other folks here.

Regards,

Tom

I have only one example, from the time a scout-leader friend and I took a group of boys for a weekend camping trip. In spite of our pre-trip checklist, many of the boys were unprepared for sleet turning to very cold weather. My buddy and I are gear-heads, so of course we had extra everything. But what saved the day was a roll of super-heavy plastic trash compactor bags. Imagine a group of boys sitting out in the woods with parkas, overboots, "kilts" etc. made out of heavy plastic bags. White bags, at that. Scary! But warm.

Back when I was in the BSA, the Scout Leaders (us boys) checked each other and the adults spot checked before we left to insure that everyone had the right gear.

JEEZ LOUEEZE!

I feel deprived! Where were you guys when *I* was a scout??? We never did anything fun, never went camping, etc. All we did was sell, sell, sell! Never did find out where the money went...

You guys are great for what you're doing. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Maybe "your" kids won't be these idiots that go somewhere totally unprepared (mentally AND equipmentally, if there is such a word). We'll probably never hear about them in the newspaper because smart rarely makes it there.

Sue

Here, in the United Kingdom we have the Army Cadet Force. This group basically consists of a government funded organisation give juniors, between 13-18 years of age, insight into the armed forces. I was there from the age of 14 until I was 17 (had to emigrate). Never looked back and would like to become instructor one day....

Reinhardt

We often camped on the beach and had wild greens with rice for dinner along with fresh mussell meat on a stick wrapped with a piece of bacon. One end of the stick in the sand and the other over the fire, no hot dogs roasts for us.

Regarding the cold, wet conditions...using trash bags, etc..

That's the kind of experience that I had as a young Scout, way too many years ago, and it's why I think about this stuff now as my son is going through Boy Scouts and I'm the scout leader. Back around 1970something, we were doing a hike along the AT in New Hampshire, and were up in the Presidential Range, near Mt Washington. We were somewhat prepared for cooler conditions, but, us newbies never expected to start our day hike in shorts and t-shirts, and need arctic gear later that afternoon near the top of Washington. (Mt Washington at a little over 6200ft, is known for nasty winds and weather.)

Of course, our leaders, and some of the senior Scouts TOLD us what to bring, and suggested more gear. They even checked our packs, and there were a couple guys who had to get extra gear that were way below "minimum". Being young and somewhat thick, we didn't want to lug more than we "needed", or so we thought. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Well, things got rainy, windy, and cold. We put on everything we had, and wished we had more.

In retrospect, I realize that my old Scoutmaster made sure we all had enough to keep us safe, but, not necessarily comfortable. Those who had proper gear, and enough of it, were comfortable. All of us new guys got back down the mountain ok, but, we were NOT comfortable. I don't think I've ever gone on any serious outdoor adventures since that time that I wasn't prepared for conditions to degrade significantly.

What I didn't know, until I saw him pulling some things to eat out of his pack when we were back at the car, was that our leader had a tightly packed stuff sack with a sleeping bag in it, presumably to deal with someone in the group if they were getting hypothermic. I'm sure he had a few other goodies in there that would deal with other issues.

That's the type of thing I always struggle with, how much extra I bring as one of the leaders on the trip? As some have mentioned, a well stocked FAK is pretty important. The boys all have to bring their own, but, they tend to be cut/scrape type kits. Most of them won't carry a SAM Splint, (although they should be good at improvising splints), they don't all carry Sawyer Extractors, but one of the adults, (me) always does. Repair gear, an extra poncho, some "comfort" foods, the list goes on, which is what prompted me to write the original post.

I agree with the idea that we're trying to teach the boys to be self sufficient. My old Scoutmaster was smart enough to let us feel the pain of being less than prepared, but, also being ready if things got dangerous.

Thanks again for your thoughts and ideas, keep 'em coming. I have been a reader of the forum for a long time, and appreciate the opportunity to participate.

Regards - Ron

Ron,

Hi!

I second Tom Ayers' approach. Do not go into outings fully prepared and equipped to bail out the boys from every misadventure of their own ill preparation. Naturally the boys need to be thoroughly briefed in advance on what gear they need to bring and how they need to prepare. And, they do need to be protected from their own misadventures when the consequences are serious. But the minor errors and omissions are opportunities for them to learn. First aid tends to be an exception to my policy of benign neglect. The newer boys are also likely to be indulged on their early mistakes.

This somewhat hard approach is something I have gradually developed. As a new assistant scoutmaster, I was constantly lending gear to the boys. And the boys were characteristically equipped inadequately. I eventually hardened to force the boys to prepare for and handle the minor and foreseeable problems on their own. I try to minimize the gear that I take which is different from what the boys are supposed to be carrying. I also avoid things which are inappropriate for the boys to use on such outings since I want them working on their basics, not attaching excessive importance to equipment.

Our own troop has tended to be more solicitous of the boys' comfort than I have wanted. A lot of basic planning, preparation, equipping, and skills have been given short shrift. I have been the scoutmaster for only a few months, so we'll see how effectively I can implement my ideas.

Good luck

John

>>What I didn't know, until I saw him pulling some things to eat out of his pack when we were back at the car, was that our leader had a tightly packed stuff sack with a sleeping bag in it,...<<

Then there was the trip when I was in such a hurry to get of the train from work and over to the departure point that I forgot MY sleeping bag at home. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Fortunately we have a couple of extra in the trailer for such greenhorns! <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

BTW, one danger of playing hardball with youth is that they'll often disappear from the troop after a "hard" weekend. There's a fine line between toughing them up and ultimately discouraging them from the outdoors forever.

Susan,
Looking at the local Girl Scouts, they seem to be "sell sell sell", while some of the Boy Scout or Explorer troops are fairly Hard Corps. I know they troop I was with (now disbanded for more than 20 years) was fairly hard corps - we used to go out for at least one 2 night campout EVERY month - rain or shine.

I can remember helping evacuate one of the younger guys who horsed around, and managed to get hypotermia one night - we got him home instead of making him stick the second night <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Then there was the time the peninsula we were camping on got cut off by a rising flash flood - THAT was a wet miserable weekend, even for those of us who had a clue - wake up at 2:00am with an evacuation, move to high ground, wait till daylight, and have to hike the LONG way around ( about 6 miles - long hike for kids with full packs), in the pouring rain to get back to where we were parked. Camping when it was well below 0F (the same guy who got the hypothermia the year before was fine on that one - he learned)

Thank goodness no MAJOR injuries - ever. We were always ready for them, but never needed to use the gear

>Our own troop has tended to be more solicitous of the boys'
>comfort than I have wanted. A lot of basic planning,
>preparation, equipping, and skills have been given short
>shrift.

How many of you have heard parents (the ones that never volunteer to come and help) "concerned" about things like camping and hiking in the rain or snow? Good Lord, one of the things we're trying to teach the boys is how to handle themselves in less than ideal conditions!

We try to make sure that the boys are reasonably ready to deal with conditions that may arise, and do it with a positive attitude. On a recent 2 night camping trip, we had fairly high winds, and driving rain on both nights. On the first night, a pair of scouts were the proud owners of an indoor swimming pool, inside their tent, at around 2am. Their rain fly had half blown off, and was shredded by an overhanging branch as it flapped away. Now, there was a lot of commotion, and confusion initially. After looking over the situation from a distance, with another adult on the trip, we decided that since it was warm out, and they had good rain gear, we'd let them deal with their "shelter" issues. We went back to the adult tent, and "listened" for problems, but, basically let them fumble around until they had the situation under control again. They never actually came over to ask for help, which was great, since they took some pride in solving the problem themselves.
There were a couple other boys with some water problems too, who woke with some damp sleeping bags that first night, for various tent setup reasons.

When the weekend was nearing an end, everyone was talking about the flooded tent, and laughing about it. They were all pretty happy that they made it through the weekend, with some jury rigged tarps over 2 tents, and some creative use of a couple poncho's as a rain fly on another. (On the second night, everyone had adapted in some way, and stayed dry.)

When we arrived back at the church, where the parents meet to pick up the boys, they started telling the mom's and dad's about the weekend while moving gear from one vehicle to another. We soon had a couple parents expressing their concern. They seemed to think we should have cancelled the camping until a weekend without any rain. It was all we could do not to laugh. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

One of the parents has a son who absolutely loves being outdoors hiking, camping, and fishing. The parents don't. They are the type who will call to see if a trip is being cancelled, because rain is in the forecast. At one point, they talked about maybe taking their son out of the program because they didn't think it was appropriate to go camping, knowing it might rain. I asked one of them if they would rather that their son learn how to handle themselves now, with adults there to coach them, or do they think it would be better to forbid their son from participating? I then said something like: "You could stop him from doing it now, but, your son loves the outdoors. When he's in college, he'll want to do this with his friends, and he'll go out in the woods anyway. We're trying to help him be prepared to handle himself responsibly when he's older, and there aren't adults around to provide the structure and guidance."

(Don't get me wrong, we're not crazy, and wouldn't suggest taking the troop out under severe conditions that would be inapproriate / unsafe.)

How do other folks deal with parents like that? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

"Give a boy a tent, he will camp for a night. Teach him how to make his own tent, he will camp forever."

I figure a leader should always bring a spare of the main troop gear (tent/stove/cooking equipment/wood/ect) and keep them in his vehicle. A leader should also bring a spare (or two) sleeping bag. Before the trip at a meeting proper packing should be discussed and reviewed and before the trip if possible a "shakedown" should be done to make sure everyone has the right gear. The packing review meeting should be led both by adults and by the older scouts (if you have them) as younger guys usually listen to older scouts better, but scouts will tend to say what they need to keep comfortable, which is usually less then what a younger scout needs. Also, I like to during the trip do random checks to see if everyone has a good knife, firelighting device, and other supplies on their person. Each scout is also expected to take turns starting the nightly fire (if we have one) by starting it with their own supplies they have on them. I really believe the scout should not have anything handed to them, if they need help they should have an older scout try to help first before going to an adult. The spare gear is there and the boys know it, but it is emergency use only. If they do have to use it they have to sing a song in front of the troop. It helps to teach responsibility, a lot of guys don't like it, but it works. I can say with pride none of the spare gear has been used by the boys in atleast a year, adults I can't say the same.

We've done quite a few "under the stars trips" where the middle/older guys do tarp camping in the winter and no tent camping in the summer, with the younger guys in tents close by, those are always the best trips as the guys learn the most about how to stay safe and comfortable.

How you deal with parents like that? I have no idea - maybe I'll find out when my son gets a bit older.

I'm a city slicker with a country heart. I loved camping (too out of shape now, trying to fix that...) I take my son and daughter on woods/trail walks as often as I can (son can't go too far yet - only 3), just like MY dad did/does with me (Dad is 81 and still gets out in the woods). I found if you took scouts seriously, there was a LOT to learn, but most of the boys didn't - their loss. I guess it was because by the time I got to be age 11 (starting point for Boy Scounts back then - younger was Cubs.Weblows) I was already fairly comfortable in the woods, knew how to sharpen a knife, etc

As for spot checks on gear - I can't remember anyone in the troop spot checking my gear - dad always did it, and I had a checklist that stayed in my pack (my hunting daypack still has a checklist)

I know the "basics" like a knife were expected to be on you, even when you went to a weekly meeting - most of the kids slacked of on the uniform - I guess they found them "dorky". I can still remember some of our requirements. Uniform (Pants, shirt, belt with badges, Neckerchief, hat, socks, Shoes or hiking boots, a PAD and pencil, 2 dimes (pay phones), your knife.

Sigh

Some of the stuff (cooking etc) was a bit hard when I was 11, but by the time I left at 16 due to a lack of time, it was all easy

I don't know. We had one girl in our first aid brigade troop whose mother refused to let her go on a weekend trip in October because she thought it *might* be too cold. This wasn't a camping trip - we were going to be staying in (unheated) bunkhouses, we had several cars, there was a heated lodge nearby, and we were only about 6 miles by road from a small town with a hotel and restaurant. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
But there was no question of dealing with this parent - she made her decision and that was that; no discussion.

I wonder if it would help to show them some stories about people who got lost on a dayhike or a picnic and point out that these people weren't "camping", nor were they expecting bad weather.

I think in some ways, it's the same problem with camping and hiking stores. They want to promote the idea of camping as "fun" and "safe", so they (at least some of them, IMO) tend to downplay "survival" in case it scares away potential customers. Whereas the reality is, it is almost perfectly safe - as long as you know what you're doing and are prepared. It's the people who don't know what they're doing, and aren't prepared, who are most at risk.

A friend of mine grew up next door to an Indian reservation and would sometimes visit the families on "the Rez". One time, she watched as a baby crawled over to an open fire and stuck her hand in the flames - watched by the mother and all the adults. She was horrified that they would sit by and allow this to happen - but they explained that, sooner or later, babies will stick their hands in the fire and it's better for them to do it under adult supervision and get it over with, without doing any lasting harm, than to spend years "protecting" them and risk them doing it when nobody is watching.

Of course, with our current "nanny state" mentality, you'd be hauled up on criminal charges of child abuse if you got caught doing something like that these days.

I think the way you explained it to those parents was about the best thing you could have done, in the circumstances.

Lots to learn from this thread... Question now is when to step in and give assistance to the boys.

I have a 1.5 year old son and I am constantly thinking about his future and doing things like hiking, camping, scouts etc. I would just like to say thanks to all of you guys for theads like this. Although I don't participate in these threads (since I have no knowledge or expertise in this area) I read them religiously and learn quite a bit from them. Just thought I'd say thanks, and keep the great scouting and child-preparedness information coming! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"]>I wonder if it would help to show them some stories about people who got lost on a dayhike or a picnic and point out that these people weren't "camping", nor were they expecting bad weather.
[/color]
Nice idea! I took a quick look, and found a few examples pretty readily online. There are also plenty of stories right here in ETS. Maybe I can incorporate this concept into a parents meeting for the troop. (I think the boys will benefit by reviewing various situations too. )

I've included a couple links to some of the things I saw with a quick Google search:
http://www.vaildaily.com/article/20040913/NEWS/40914006&SearchID=7319264304531
http://www.theolympian.com/home/specialsections/Outdoors/20030515/6715.shtml
http://www.cboutdoors.com/Dog_Team/crested_butte_dog_team_locates_m.htm
http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=3897&messageid=1093367491
http://www.nbc4.tv/news/3957961/detail.html?subid=10101581

There are stories like this every year, and many of them are just people that are "out for a day hike" when the weather, or an injury changes the rules of the game.

A couple of good links from this site:

Around The Campfire\"I find this story terribly sad", posted by Norad45 on 07/02/04 07:28 AM (204.126.146.20):
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595073455,00.html
http://166.70.44.66/2004/Jul/07092004/utah/182134.asp

ETS Home Page - click on "Survival Stories", then " A Question Of Survival - Two wilderness aircraft crashes. The pilots in both survive the crash. But, two very different endings--one lives, the other dies. William Waldock examines the question: Why the difference?"

Thanks to all who have replied so far. I have been a Cub Scout leader for the past year. Our Pack "camps out" twice a year. Families are invited and it is definitely car camping. Pull up the largest SUV you can find and dump as much equipment as you can on the campsite.

At this point the Packs mentallity is to make it as comfortable and fun as possible to encourage the boys to stick with the camping and encourage the families to participate. If the families are involved, then the Pack will grow and prosper.

Being a gearhead, I tend to bring a rather extensive list of equipment. Not all of the equipment leaves the vehicle but I have it in reserve if needed. Last time I brought splitting wedges and a sledge hammer in case someone brought logs instead of firewood. Sure enough, the first hour I was in camp, some one dumped a load of well seasoned logs next to the fire. I broke out the wedges and hammer. After splitting one log, I had a line of scouts wanting to give it a try. Handed the tools and leather gloves over to a dad. Put him in charge of safety. Within no time, all the wood was split. The wedges and hammer were put back in the vehicle to reduce potential missue.

This discussion has made me evaulate what gear I will pack and what I should be packing. I think I will trim back on the gew gaws and concentrate more on safety.

I think at the Cub Scout level, your pack is doing great to get the family camping concept started, however you do it. Some of the boys will be ready to go to the next level, some won't. It's great to have families together outdoors, and if you can help facilitate that through the Pack, you should feel great about it.

When they get to Boy Scouts, you can start to further cultivate the ability to be self sufficient. For one thing, a lot fewer parents volunteer to camp out when they have to carry their gear in on their back, and don't have the comforts of home, so you'll mostly be dealing with the boys, some experienced parents, and the Scout leaders, who hopefully have some experience and training. Slowly moving the boys from the "back of the SUV" camping, to a week or two with just what you carry on your back or in your canoe is more like art than science. We all had to take small steps to get there.

There have been some great thoughts in this thread on managing the balance between coaching the boys how to handle themselves, in new situations, while keeping it safe enough that they come back ok. When I started asking about what equipment people bring along as leaders, it seemed to bring out a number of other interesting tangents. I particularly heard the message of letting the boys sort through their problems, using whatever THEY had brought along, as much as possible. After all, learning to improvise is something that is often best taught by working through a real situation.

I just read a couple of the pointers people added referencing examples of "lost day hikers". They reinforce the importance of the work we do as leaders of young folks trying to learn how to take care of themselves. I know that this forum has been very helpful for me to provide contrasting ideas and methods for coaching these young men. Thanks for your advice. The examples really drive home how easy it is for folks to get themselves into trouble. The story about the mother and daughter who's bones were found a couple miles from the trailhead was the most recent one I scanned. Very sad. I'm collecting the examples to prepare a talk for our Troop, particularly for the parents who are questioning the need for survival training, and high adventure experiences.

I am amazed at how little "common sense" people have. As part of a SAR team we are called to help those who are missing. One incident really drove home the idea that people are not prepared to leave thier homes for any reason.

A mother and son decided to take a bike trip through the woods across the street from their home. It was a warm fall day and the two were wearing short sleeve shirts and shorts when they left their home around 4:30pm. Daylight savings had just happened within a week and it got darker an hour earlier than they were expecting. They crossed the street in front of their house, road 100 yrds over a dirt road through a field to the edge of the woods. They followed the dirt road into the woods. Once the road entered the woods, it went down hill and only down hill.

They got into the woods and it got dark due to the heavy trees and daylight savings. The temp started to drop. They continued downhill on the dirt road. Eventually the road emptied into a brair tangle at the edge of a swamp. They picked up their bikes and carried them through the swamp. They stopped after a while and huddled through the night. At daybreak they got up and walked out of the swamp to a nearby road. Law enforcement was patroling the perimeter and picked them up around 7:30am.

If you are lost in the dark and you have been following a road downhill to get where you are, wouldn't you head uphill following the road to get out? If you followed a road until it turned into a swamp, wouldn't you stop there instead of carrying a bicycle through briar tangle and swamp?

To make matters more exciting, the mother was reportedly afraid of the dark but she started out on a bicycle trip at 4:30 in the afternoon when dark was at 5:30. Instead of cycling in open areas, they headed into heavy forested area. The boy was reportedly taking meds for mental stability but was unable to take his meds because he was in the woods all night. So you have a mother who is afraid of the dark so is not very mentally stable taking care of a boy who is mentally unstable without his meds.

The temp dropped that night. We were wearing sweat shirts while searching for them. They were wearing short sleeve shirts and shorts adding mild hypothermia to their mental status. Additionally they missed their evening meal so were potentally developing low blood sugar conditions.

As we were walking down the road in the woods, we could see streetlights to the left. So at most we were 500 yards from streetlights. Wouldn't you head towards a streetlight instead of through briars in shorts?

Both survived with only scrapes from the briars and mental exhaution from their ordeal. All of this within 1000 yards of their home.