hello, i would like to hear evrybodys thoughts on the ideal survival vehical or vehicals....i currently use two, for my evryday use urban and offroad. a 85 toyota 4-runner and a 660 grizzly,this combo is by no means chaep but i have found it to be an outstanding combo for just evrything i like to do,hunting, fishing,4wheeling ,camping and work. i admit that the grizz is a big extra that in lite of the runner is probably unnessasary,but it doese do so many things better than the runner when it comes to offroad...the reasons for my choices is simple.....reliability and economy.....the weakpoint in any survival vehical is fuel economy,i live in a desert area very mountanus a big 4x4 may carry more on the street,highway or offroad but you arnt going to be passing many gas stations. ther are draw backs of corse to the economy side of the equation,parts arnt chaep and you are not surruonded by heavy steel in event of a wrek. in closing would like to see your thuoghts on this subject.....V.......

dear lord, sorry about the spelling folks.

Sam,<br><br>Gee, that's impossible to answer - you've left too much to my imagination. I'm guessing you mean "bug-out" transportation and I'm further guessing that you're thinking about going solo... from an urban area to a "wilderness" area. If you're asking a "TEOTWAWKI" question, this is the wrong forum, 'tho I guess you could ask to move the thread to the Campfire forum (that's up to Doug).<br><br>What event(s) are you planning to survive and what is your general plan? How long (duration) are you planning to "survive" and how do your wheels figure into that? Sounds like you're thinking of the Toy as "stage 1" and the ATV as "stage 2", but again, I'm guessing. How do you haul the ATV? Trailer?<br><br>The simple answer to your question is to figure out what you need to do and then figure out how to best use what you have to accomplish that. Just like any survival situation.<br><br>Don't forget walking. On three occasions so far, we've avoided being thrust into a SAR survival situation on late hunts in the Rockies by simply walking in and walking/snowshoeing out instead of doing some macho nonsense with our 4wds and/or ATVs. Hundreds of others were not so fortunate, especially one year - many heliocopter evacs and abandoned vehicles and equipment. Sometimes walking is best. (Or horses, in Chris K's case <grin>)<br><br>If you can frame your question a bit to narrow it down, I'll offer my opinions for your consideration. For example, does your Toy have Birfield joints? If so, do you have the capability to repair them when they break? It's usually an essential capability with desperate "off-road" use of a Toy, because they don't break at a convenient time, but no big deal if you're prepared for it. This may be irrelevant, depending on what you're planning for.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Scouter Tom

I have always considered a survival vehicle something that can get me from point a to point b with ease and economy and also considering that roads may be out, debris blocking the road and or traffic jams .....etc etc <br><br>I have made my last ditch get me home or to my safehave vehicle a KLR-650 touring street/dirt bike. My observations of the California earthquakes and Hurricanes of SE coast's was the reason for my choice. Also I could store the bike in my storm shelter and if Tornado etc etc wiped out my above ground garage I had the KLR which is reported to get 75 mpg but my best mileage has only been about 65 mpg. With it's 6.5 gallon fuel tank that is good range for getting to and from with out fuel stations working or available.......<br><br><br> As to a a four wheeled (albeit 2 wheel drive) vehicle I have stuck with the VW in a Baja Bug configuartion with the understanding that I can rebuild the engine in my living room if need be, air cooled, will go cross country in most cases just fine and with custom fuel tanks the proper small general purpose powered engine will get great mileage for day to day requirements for travel in a "survival" situation.<br><br>Albeit my Toyota land cruiser is my go everywhere ride, it is a gas guzzler and mechanicaly complex to repair (or so I hear as it hasn't ever broke down on me yet :o) . To use it when all about you is dangerous and lacking would exhaust what little fuel you have left IMHO. <br><br>Where as any trip out during natural or man made disasters IMHO should be limited in the first place if I had to bug out to safer digs versus stay in a properly prepaired home I'd take the VW with a trailer holding my KLR and spare fuel if at all possible.<br><br>Also don't forget to consider the basic schwinn cruiser bicycle with the ballon tires with a couple of wire baskets on it. Starts every time andwill get ya around your small town. My best rides on a bicycle allowed me to travel 130 miles a day.......<br><br>KLR-650's VW basic bugs without the frills and a good basic bicycle are my "emergency / survival vehicles if I should have to leave my home/safehaven during times of need.........<br><br>Stay Safe.....

Roger what you have to say for walking. I always have rope for belying in my car kit, and unless I'm on them, once we have snow on the ground, my snowshoes are in my car. I figure I can cut a staff in a few seconds, and while the digest maps aren't the best, their contors and details are good enough for way finding if I REALLY need to use them for that.

Sounds like you've thought through your concerns, inventoried what you have available, and decided how to use what you've got. That's kinda what my point was. Your motorcycle would be unsuitable for my local conditions part of the year and in any event would not accomodate my family of 6 + two large dogs. So we have different vehicles that meet our needs, including our routine day-to-day needs. Things are quite a bit more complicated with multiple vehicles, multiple daily routines, etc. Our planning is in constant revision as status changes occur - for example, all can drive any of our wheeled vehicles, but this past week I gained one additional licensed driver so now he is routinely in daily command of a vehicle. Next year, the youngest will move from passenger to driver status... so thinking ahead and deciding how to deal with possible scenarios, as you have done, is where it all starts.<br><br>There are basic, general observations that I will make about BO vehicles that fall into three general categories: 1)Maintenance; 2) Habits; 3)Auxiliary items carried on-board.<br><br>Examples in each category:<br><br>1) Keep your BO vehicle maintained in good operating condition at all times<br><br>2) Keep your fuel tank(s) full; habitually re-fuel at whatever your BO critical point is or 1/2 tank, whichever leaves the greatest amount of fuel on board at all times. Examples - if your BO plan realistically will consume 3/4 of a fuel load, never allow your fuel tank to dip below 3/4 in your day-to-day routine. If your BO plan requires 1/4 of a fuel load, never let it drop below 1/2. Those of us with trucks and bed-carried extra fuel CAN get away with a little less regard for this, but it's still a good habit.<br><br>3) Self-recovery items, basic pioneer tools, critical high-probability repair parts and the tools and knowledge to use them, vehicle survival or emergency kits, etc.<br><br>I will argue that things in categories 1 and 2 cost nothing additional. Category three is usually budget, environment, and reality constrained. Doug has many good suggestions on this site, which is a great place to start.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Scouter Tom

hello again ,im new here so mabe i should have prefaced my question;survival is to me is an evryday mindset encompassing urban,wilderness,economic and health......mr.ayers you asked what events are you planning to survive? my reply is any and evrything that comes my way in the corse of this life. how long duration are you planning to survive? my reply is as long as it takes to return to some kind of normalcy in life. my wheells are an aid in the things i do, working ,hunting,fishing.. in the event of a catastrphie were leaving the area i and my wife live is necessary then we are prepard to do so with the equipment to live out of our vehicle anywhere.i am still working on spare parts for my gear.....but if we had to leave now i am confident we would make it to were ever we had to go and make it there aswell.,but there is allways the unexpected isnt there........thats were survival starts preparring for the unexpected......this is a good forum as time goes on i hope to make myself clear on what has worked for me in the past and learn from all of you........V........

Sam,<br><br>I delayed answering your post to ponder for a awhile its pertaince(sp?) to this forum. Your answer to Tom's question, and some of Tom's comments, got me to this....<br><br>Keep your vehicle maintained! The closest to a bad (as in, could have died) survival situation I ever found myself in was when I was 18. Fresh out of AIT and at my first duty assignment for Uncle Sam, I bought my first car. Used of course. I had a long weekend and decided to drive to Ogden, Utah to visit some friends. Did I check the oil in my "new" car? No. Did I check the tires? No. Did I check anything? No. Forty miles north of Green River, Utah, on US 6, I had a blow out. No problem, I thought, I'll change the tire and be on my way. Only problem was.....there was no spare. Much swearing followed. Most directed at the used car place, some at myself. Today that would be reversed; I should have checked. It was southern Utah (desert---no shade, no water), it was July (hot). It was 11:00AM (hot and getting hotter). I had no water. I was already dehydrated (I had drank a bit the night before). Two hours passed before I decided to try flagging down help. Another two hours and 26 cars passed before anyone would even slow down for me. ...the Utah state trooper was concerned. He took me straight to the hospital where I was treated for heat exhaustion. I spent the rest of my money getting the tire fixed and buying a spare. I didn't make it to Ogden. The moral of the story should be obvious.<br><br>Andy

Sam,<br><br>Actually, that's enough info for me to venture some comments. Did you see my post about Maintenance, Habits, and Additional Items? I don't think I could add much more than personal preferences to the vehicle kits that Doug has taken the time to suggest on the website. If you are interested, I would be happy to relate the other sorts of useful things that I suggest you might want to carry in/on BOTH your vehicles, based on my experiences - many learned "the hard way" <grin>.<br><br>Your vehicles sound fine to me; better than many of us probably have if they are in good working order. Disclaimer: Our current "fleet" includes three 3/4 ton Fords ranging from 77 HD to 2001 SD, a 1 ton Ford Van, and a few varied sedans I mostly don't consider suitable for BO (except the VW Fox). I've never owned a Toyota truck, and our ATVs have always been Honda. So get a grain of salt ready for the following comments...<br><br>First, your Toyota: IRRC, your '85 has the more desirable running gear, particularly with regard to the axles. I'm not a Toyota expert, so I can only repeat what little I've observed/heard. They are generally regarded as being reliable and tough little trucks - my Dad's '85 certainly is. I believe you probably have the same power train my Dad has - a carburated 4 cyl (don't remember exact displacement) - is that correct? Dad and I have taken his (2wd, btw, but it has a Warn winch on it) about everywhere in NA and the only trouble we ever had was a minor fuel system problem: 1) water in the gas (Canada), followed shortly by 2) a nearly totally obstructed fuel filter. We did NOT replace it with a factory fuel filter - a much larger unit with a water trap and drain was what we put on it after we got back to civilization. Out there, we had to eliminate the fuel filter with a piece of copper tubing and twice dump water out of the carb bowl. Since I had trouble with water in the gas EVERY time I transited Canada to Alaska, all my vehicles from that era (I still drive two of them) were "modified" in the field with an ice pick - I hammered a hole in the low point of the gas tank and plugged it with a sheet metal screw shoved thru a scrap of rubber (piece of hose used as a gasket) so I could drain water out of the tank, should it appear. The solution on my Dad's Toyota is more elegant. Dad's truck has 175,000+ miles on it now and it simply has not ever had any other problem, period. So if yours is in decent mechanical shape, it should be a good multi-purpose vehicle.<br><br>Birfield joints break. That's a fact of small Toyota 4wd life, near as I can tell. I have never personally fixed one, but I have seen it done in the woods. If you know all about them, you're set. Otherwise, you might want to look into that - possible carry a spare and the tools to change it out. If so, a practice session in the driveway probably beats doing it for the first time "out there". I don't really know anymore about that, but perhaps someone else on the forum does and can speak to it with some authority.<br><br>My only comment about your ATV is "Be careful!" I bought my first one in January 1983 (Honda Big Red & still have it), and I have the aches, pains, and previously broken bones to prove it. It seems that the more you "need" an ATV, the more trouble presents itself. We've stuck with Hondas, but as far as I have heard, the Grizz is reliable. Just be careful... I've become very unenamored of ATVs off "road", although in the past I have taken some incredible cross-terrain long distance trips on them into truely remote areas, including swimming rivers with my Big Red and submarining rivers with 4 wheeled Honda ATVs (all done legally, I hasten to add). <br><br>I feel that ATVs extend one's ability to get farther up some cruddy "jeep trail" or old logging road, but these days I'd rather walk than take mine off-road. Just passing on some hard-earned experience... and a little environmental guilt, I suppose. Oh, one other comment: strictly opinion, but I feel strongly that the lack of a low range is NOT compensated for with bigger engines. The older Hondas with low range are better than the later ones sporting larger engines - displacement is no substitute for the low-speed hairy situation control that a low range gives one. If you don't have low range on your Grizz, be extra extra careful... We will not get rid of our older Hondas for that one reason.<br><br>Having said that - have you set yourself up to pull your trailer with your ATV? If you lose your Toyota and still have "road" that you need to travel, that's a very slick way to haul in more things than you can pile on the ATV, especially if you are riding double. In fact, I feel that done correctly, a passenger is safer in a trailer than riding double - easier to bail out (uphill side) if something bad happens. We've had good experiences with ATVs used as "trailer tractors" on crappy roads. A come-along and a good length of small diameter galvanized aircraft cable can be very useful with or without the trailer. I do not recomend nylon rope, even static line, for use with a come-along unless that's all you've got - too much danger; even static line stores energy and can release it with lethal results. Cable is less convenient but safer.<br><br>Last comment - I suggest you also be prepared to walk. Sometimes that's really the best way; sometimes that's the only way.<br><br>Hope that helps.<br><br>Scouter Tom

I'm sure a lot of the people on this board already do this, carry a spare key to the vehicle you are in somewhere on your person. It's not exactly survival gear but it's one of the things that when you need it, you need it. And yes i have had to use mine once.

LOL!<br><br>Thanks, Ray. Now, that's a reality check! And a good reminder about priorities...<br><br>How many times have I locked my keys in my vehicle since I got my license twenty-one years ago? Can't recall any exact figure, but I do recall a few times. How many times was I in trouble because of it? Once... the first time only. After that, I carried a spare key.<br><br>Okay, hmm... lessee... how many times have I had to bug out of my home city due to environmental or social disruption? Um, er... ZERO!<br><br>So, what should be my first (not last) concern when preparing my vehicle to be there for me in an emergency? Hmm... lemmee think...<br><br>Allow me to be clear; I am not saying don't prepare for the big unlikely catastrophes. I sure do, and I think everyone should, to whatever extent they feel they can without sacrificing quality of life. I feel my preparations have improved my quality of life, because I feel safer and worry less. If I spent money to the point of impoverishing myself, this trend would likely reverse itself.<br><br>I have a bug out bag for me and my girlfriend in my home, and matching bags at her home. I have medical and seasonal survival gear, including rations, in my Jeep, along with tools & extraction gear. I try never to let my gas tank drop below half. Etc.<br><br>I'm also prepared to bug IN. I keep my apartment stocked with enough firewood, potable water, non-perishable foods & the means to prepare them w/o utilities, etc. to lock myself in and wait out the riot, storm, utility outage or whatever.<br><br>Do I expect to ever have to use any of this stuff? Well, no, frankly. And I hope I'm right. Actually, I figure the BOBs are most likely going to be used, if ever, to leave my home quickly because of a fire. I won't have to worry about being homeless with nothing. I will have spare clothes, cash, a spare checkbook & credit card, spare keys to my vehicles and alternate family and friends' homes who have given me keys for just such an emregency, first aid gear, rations & water, etc. It gives me some nice feelings of security knowing these home and vehicle preparations are in place, but...<br><br>Sam, you said, "That's where survival starts; preparing for the unexpected."<br><br>Sorry. I have to disagree. Survival starts with preparing for the expected. On this forum, over and over again, people will ask other people, "What kinds of situations are you expecting to have to survive? What types of conditions are you likely to encounter?"<br><br>If you are preparing to go for a three day hike during the summer in an area that is currently seeing 30 days over 100F in a row and counting, you begin by preparing for the expected... heat. You wear loose cool clothing. You wear a hat with a full brim and sunglasses. You take sunscreen and LOTS of water. I'd sincerely suggest the smallest folding umbrella you can find would be an excellent accessory for use as a parasol. (Portable shade is a Good Thing. )<br><br>What you don't take is your 100% wool long underwear and snowshoes! Summer survival starts with preparing for the expected (heat), not the unexpected (cold).<br><br>AFTER, you'ver properly prepared for the heat... THEN you prepare for the unexpected freak cold front or surprisingly cool midnights. Windbreakers and/or ponchos might not be a bad idea. But, you can probably still leave the snowshoes at home. <br><br>When I started offroading, I got some extraction gear, because I "expected" that, sooner or later, I'd need it. (I was right! ) I haven't added a snorkel yet, because I "don't expect" to be needing that anytime soon. I may add one someday, but only when 1) I have made preparations for all the other "expected" emergencies and can now afford to expend energy toward mods that I "don't expect" I will ever need or 2) my offroading habits change to the point where I "expect" I may actually need a snorkel someday.<br><br>There's nothing wrong with preparing for the possible emergencies that you don't expect to ever happen. Being ready for the unexpected is a fine and worthy goal. But it's also something that you do only after you have finished preparing for all of the possible emergencies that you do expect actually might happen.<br><br>At least, that's what I'd suggest.

Jet, i really didn't "expect" to need my spare key. It's just that things happen, my brain went out to lunch without the rest of me. But i do agree with you, work on being prepared for the most common probabilities first and then work on the possibilities. <br><br> I used to manage a hardware store and i would get a steady stream of people who would do this the other way around, lock their keys in the car and after waiting for the auto club or spending money on a locksmith, come in and buy a spare key from me. <br><br>If you have keys like the GM vats or the newer Fords, and don't want to spend the money for the electronics, you can usually get a "plain" key that will open the door for just a few dollars. Just remember that it won't start the vehicle.

had a bit of tech.problems with the modem....all good commen sense stuff her glad to be on- board and enjoy sharing ideas,knowlege,and experiences as well as listening to you all........V........

for myself i have a 2000 4x4 durango camping ect.<br>i also have my work car 91 mustang gt 2x turbo w/ 150 shot nos and other mods just in case i have to get to work fast (its fun) each his own.

If and when tou get a snorkel, you will need alot more than that.. water proof ignition,alternator, and either water proof seals pre-installed with replacements or replacement seals for ALL devices under water. Also all fluids must be kept in spare quanties. IF the water reaches the up limits of the snorkel the water pressure will be about 1/2 + 1 atmosphere. Most seals are designed to keep things in, and only dust and sand out.................................................................................<br><br>I know you said this was a last thing, but I was not sure if you might think that a snorkel was all there was to it. I am sure I have not pointed out every thing....... Mac

What does this mean? TEOTWAWKI? I am new here, and although I read posts here and elsewhere I have no idea what this word means....... Mac

The End Of The World As We Know It

Teotwawki was a minor Anasazi diety of survival. When you've snapped the last lifeboat match, lost the striker to your metal match and the lighter fluid has evaporated, Then you send supplications to teotwawki while contructing a bow drill with the X-acto blade in your PSK. At this critical point Kokopelli brings the wind. With all due respect to the Chaco Canyon research, this is why the Anasazi disappeared.

Oh that makes perfect sence. But I didn't know the Anasazi had all that stuff. Hmm modern matches, life boats, ligher fluid? Wow! ;-) Mac

Thanks Mac.

Tom,

Is the water trap fuel filter you spoke of in the post I'm replying to, readily available? Any idea if it would work on a carbed 350 Chevy? Needless to say I've been having trouble with water in my gasoline...and ALL of the local gas stations buy gas from the same company.

Thanks!

Take care,

Andy

Here's my choices:

1. 650-class dual purpose motorcycle. (Kawasaki KLR650, etc.). Best for maneuverability. Good range (big gas tank). Legal on highways.

2. Jeep Wrangler (pick your vintage, long wheelbase is better--CJ-6/CJ-8/AEV 112). Best 4WD for maneuverability. Can carry a goodly amount of stuff. Probably best for two people max.

3. Full-size 4WD pickup or van. Best for carrying lots of stuff, but not great for off-road (or on-road!) maneuverability. Can carry the bike. Available with diesel engine.

My favorite scenario is the pickup at the destination, and the Jeep and bike at the home (assuming you have a place to go!). Wife drives the Jeep with the kids and supplies in back and I ride the bike as advance scout.

Am I getting too paranoid? <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In reality, any well-maintained vehicle that has at least *some* off-road capability is sufficient. Base your needs on how much cargo capacity you need for your family.

As we discuss vehicles for "survival" use, it's important to think about driving techniques, both on and off road. There are plenty of websites that describe techniques, but one book I thought I'd pass along. Four Wheel Freedom by Brad DeLong has some good beginnning techniques for off-road driving. While I'm by no means an expert, I do have several years of off-road experience. This book has taught me a lot, including a few situations where conventional wisdom may seem contrary to the recommended techniques. Keep in mind that this book will be "another tool in the toolbox", and not all its recommendations are appropriate or correct 100% of the time.

I just want to make a quick metion (got to cook dinner now).
Every time you step in your car for a drive longer than... lets say 20km. Check the following: PETROL
P = obviously... petrol <img src="images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
E = electronics battery and ignition
T = Tyres = pressure, quality
R = I cannot believe I cant remember this one !"&^%%)(*&£
O = oil
L = Lights

Reinhardt

R - radiator fluids.

Matt

BINGO! <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just don't say petrol to American folks, you get us a bit confused. I had an Australian classmate and we were planning a backpaging trip. So all was good until he told me that he wants to split the costs of petrol. I (16 at the time) looked at him and was wondering what the hell is he talking about. He took my confused reaction as a sign that I want more than half so he told me that he will pay for the whole petrol we are going to use. I was more confused because at this point I assumed that petrol is oil or diesel fuel. I turned around and told him that my car doesn't use that much petrol and we should be ok on one bottle. He than looked at me, figured out I don't speak Australian or English but American and we started to exchange friendly insults. So I was under the impression that I just didn't know what petrol was, until we got to the gas station in Jersey and he asked for a full talk of petrol. Gas station attendant also had no clue what he was talking about but he pointed my friend to a diesel pump down the ramp.

Just a stupid story.

Matt

Two-wheeled Rokon trail machine. Will haul ass, haul trailers, haul passengers, haul over practically any obstacle. Uses air-cooled motor. Uses less gas per pound hauled than any 4-wheeled vehicle and is cheaper to maintain, easier to service, small to store.

You can't blast down the highway on it, but if fuel becomes a problem, it will probably haul the same weight you need for "bugging out" further and more fuel efficiently albiet at a slower speed. It will go deeper into the "back country" than a 4-wheeler.

Bountyhunter

Those Rokon things are nuts, they will go anywhere and they have tons of accessories. I think some of them will even float if you fall in a river or something. <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Here's the link