I was out looking for a first gun to give one of my nephews today and stumbled across the coolest little combo: a Rossi matched pair 22/20 . The entire lineup can be seen here

I snagged one - pretty decent trigger, better than most sights, great safety features, carrying case for both barrels and the broken-down action, and a trigger lock. They are drilled and tapped for a scope - standard TC Contender bases fit, I read. The price was so low I'm not gonna repeat it here, but it was a LOT less than MSRP. Then I read some reviews and found that 1) it's been out for a while 2) they are accurate 3) folks really like them Doh! I'm getting behind the times...

I am SERIOUSLY considering getting one - at that price, even a youth model (I can lengthen the stock). Talk about a sweet little game getter when packing!

After I got one for my nephew (they are coming here for turkey day) I came home and researched it. This one is very cool - wish I had seen one at the store.

And this looks like it's worth keeping an eye on!

I've got rifles that cost 10 times more than these, but these are really interesting to me. Anyone have one? I expect that I'll be at the range Friday with a grinning young man and will post my first impressions after shooting it. Hmmm, I could get it sighted in for him before he comes down here...

I need more nephews... this is fun! No, Bountyhunter, you're too old to be my adopted nephew... <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Tom

AyersTG:

Let me see if I can help straighten you out on this.

Since anyone with common sense knows, The Garden of Eden was really located somewhere in the rich fertile grape growing soils of Italy. Eden must have had some grape vineyards back then, and Adam must have known how to make wine, otherwise how can you account for Eve being silly enough to listen to a snake if she was not somewhat buzzed with "Summer Wine".

Now follow closely as this may be somewhat shocking in its concept. Since I was born on Italian soil, fed by the proucts of Italian soil through which the eons of history shed their blood, drank the water that spread to the world over, breathed the air which carried the voices of great men as well as great despots, so therefore I and my brothers and sisters of Italy (An Italian surname don't count for squat among us if you weren't born there.) are the mothers and fathers of humanity throughout the world even though they may be born after us.

So basically you are saying you wouldn't buy your dear old daddy a nice Rossi (Which is Italian by the way.) combo gun? <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

How quickly you children forget all we have sacrificed so that you could succeed. You have hurt me to the quick and no bandage will ever stop the bleeding, although I understand there are some really, really, neat "medications" out there that will stop any pain. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Just for that, I ban you from coming to my funeral.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

(I love this morning grape juice I have been buying at a local roadside stand. I was lucky enough to score a couple gallons while the bathtub was full so that I don't have to filter it too much before drinking. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Reminds me of my first gun which was a H&R single shot 20ga, only this gun is about 10 times cooler because its got the 22lr conversion.

Tom,

It looks like a really great gun package for the boy. Ur...Uhhh...Well don't forget it really is for your nephew.

All kidding aside, you may actually want to test it for him. A 5# shotgun, even in 20 ga. might have more recoil than is desirable for a younger boy. (Of course I am assuming you are not from one of those interesting families where the nephews are older than their uncles!)

If the recoil seems a little heavy, options include: Installing weights in the stock; installing a mercury recoil reducer (I assume they work); installing a Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad (they're the best I have used); and installing an gas, hydraulic, or spring shock absorber. The absolute worst case analysis is you have new gun project to work out for him. Your fertile mind probably has more and better thoughts than I have come up with.

Whatever you do, please keep us apprised of how everything works.

Good luck,

John

John,

Recoil is going to be way too sharp for him with just about any factory 20 gauge load - and I didn't get the 410 version because it has a brisk recoil impulse in that light of a gun. Plus I don't load 410... plus it's a bit more of an expert's gauge (although I was intrigued to see that the 410 is a modified choke instead of the usual full).

Practice and very light reloads are the solution for now - 28 gauge upland game equivalents.

Got your PM - more later.

Tom

I dont know how big this kid is but I was 8yrs old when I got my H&R 20ga. Recoil was a bit painful out of the box if I remember correctly. But Dad remedied that with the stock cut down and an enormous pad put on the end in addition to the shoulder pad on my hunting and shooting vests and then it was more than managable. Although it's not like I was out shooting 25 round boxes of BBs in under half an hour at that age. That would have left a bruise and a headache for sure. That was a great gun. I wouldn't get a 410 for my son. If I really wanted to reduce recoil I'd go with one of the lightwieght wingmaster autos in 20ga. Those kick like a 22.

I bought my oldest son, 12, a Rossi 20 ga./.243 combo about a month ago for his first deer season. I put a scope on it and a hammer extender to allow easy cocking with the scope so close to the hammer. The first time we took it out to sight in the .243, the gun worked fine. Later, I tested the 20 ga. and it worked fine as well (heavy recoil). A week later, I took the .243 out for a final check (day before deer season) and the rifle wouldn't fire a round. It was "light Striking" the primer.
I tore the gun apart, cleaned it and tried everything to get the gun to shoot... no luck. A friend of mine happened to have a Rossi muzzleloader in his truck, so I tried to fire the weapon with his lower receiver... still no luck. The last thing I tried was removing the hammer extender, thinking that might decrease the weight of the hammer and speed up the strike... worked like a charm. I fired about 10 rounds with no failure. When I put the extender back on, the gun woudn't fire again.

First day of season, my son and I finally spot about 10 deer on a ridge. After a struggle, he gets the rifle cocked and aims in on the biggest deer about 70 yards away. He applies a slow steady squeeze... click. Luckily the deer were still looking at us, so he recocks the rifle. This time the rifle fires and he puts a textbook heart shot on a nice doe, who drops after about 3 steps.

Needless to say, this gun will not be going back to the woods with us. I am now eyeing the .243 barrel as a jack handle for my 12 ton hydraulic jack. It looks plenty sturdy for that task. I sincerely hope you have better luck with your gun.

Semper Fi, George

Bad luck. How much did you spend on it?

I think it was about $220.00, but that includes a Bushnell 4X scope, scope mount, a box of 20 .243 rounds and the now infamous "hammer extender". I've been taken for more than that before, but I went against my own rule not to skimp on guns/knives. I've been carrying the same Winchester Model 70 .308 for over 30 years and it's never left me hanging.

Semper Fi, George

Virginian:

Try cutting out a coil at a time from the firing pin spring.

I am not familiar with the Rossi, but if it has a movable block that rises to transfer impact to the firing pin, you might want to check that for burrs before messing with the firing pin spring.

The only other thing that may be causing you problems is headspace due to an improperly reamed chamber. That is a warranty item and actually a safety item that will probably be replaced for free.

If you haven't jacked up your Humvee with it yet, give the management a chance to fix your problem.

Rossi is a subsidary of Taurus firearms of Brazil, and their reputation for customer service is great.

Good luck!

Bountyhunter

Bountyhunter,

Thanks for the input. The first thing I checked was the block. I even shaved a little off the top edge of the hammer, to allow it to go forward a little farther to strike the block. I could see by the worn blueing that the hammer was hitting only on one corner, so I used the dremel to even it up. The firing pin goes far enough forward when dry-fired, but it lacks the energy to strike the primer deep enough. It appears to be the classic "weak hammer spring" that I've seen on hundreds of M-16's over the years. On an M-16, the most likely cause is keeping the weapon cocked for long periods in storage. This wasn't the case on this gun.

By the way, I don't have a hummer, but my F-350 is outside begging for a tire rotation. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If the barrel was about 6 inches longer, it would make a good tomato stake. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi, George

Keep your Mdl M70, but send the Rossi back to Brazatech in Tampa for warranty work. I agree with Bountyhunter's clues (good job, B-h!) and can think of only a couple of others, but otoh, why not give them a chance to fix it? They really had a great customer service reputation in the past - I was proxying for my sister on an older (abused) 22 pump rifle and they really came through.

So far my only concern is dinging the rimfire barrel with that centerfire firing pin (yeees... it already happened with an accidental dry fire... but subsequently it fires just fine into the sand-filled weapons discharge bucke - actually, the firing pin on this example has some real authority)

I have an older (Russian, I think) side-by-side that has one chamber just a wee bit deep - a matter of a few thousandths - and that barrel will only reliably fire with new shotshells - fire one and reload the hull, and it has about a 20% misfire rate. New hulls, factory ammo - perfect. The other barrel fires everything chambered in it flawlessly, as one would expect. I might make a firing pin for that one some day... nah!

Virginian:

You should still have someone put a headspace gauge in the chamber to see if it is within tolerances. If the firing pin protrudes sufficiently dry firing, it could still be the firing pin spring reducing the inertia because the spring is too stiff.

Good luck!

Bountyhunter

AyersTG:

I don't know if you are aware of it, but a lot of .22 caliber rifles and pistols have a "shouldered" firing pin so that the firing pin cannot accidentally peen the barrel chamber rim.

My cheap little 14 year old Jennings J22 has that feature and it is one of the cheapest built guns made. I lucked out despite its reputation and ended up with one that never jams if kept clean (Good for about 60+ rounds before cleaning.) , which prompted me to buy 2 more magazines for it, all of which work flawlesly. I still wouldn't dry fire it because the slide that contains the hardened steel firing pin is made of soft zinc and eventually dry firing would cause an indentation on the firing pin stop and allow the firing pin to peen the barrel chamber.

I'll bet your Rossi has a shouldered firing pin. Check into it.

Bountyhunter

Tom,

Hi!

I like your approach of using a 20 ga., but loaded down.

I did a few quick computations of the likely recoil forces involved. A typical 20 ga. factory load in a 5# shotgun using 7/8 oz. of shot at 1200 fps propelled by 16 grs of gunpowder would yield a recoil of 18.03 ft. lbs. according to my calculations. Keep in mind I did not include the weight of the combination shot protector and wad.

A 28 ga. load of 11/16 oz of shot at 1170 fps propelled by 10.8 grs. of gunpowder has a calculated recoil of 10.24 ft. lbs.

Incidentally, about 18 years ago, when I was starting to handload 20 ga. ammo, I tried a load you might find interesting. Since one of my goals was to minimize the number of gunpowders I needed to keep on hand, I tried Dupont Hi Skor 700X (which I otherwise used in 12 ga. and various handgun calibers). A contemporaneous Dupont Handloaders Guide ( this is the source for all loads mentioned herein) recommended the following recipe:

Win. AA case + Win. 209 primer + 12.5 grs. of Dupont Hi Skor 700X + Win WAA20 wad

+ 7/8 oz. of shot = 1110 fps at a chamber pressure of 11800 LUP.

The load shot well from our 2 Rem 1100 LT20 shotguns. It performed well in skeet. In my shotgun it either did not operate the action or barely ejected the fired shells (I just don't remember which). In my wife's shotgun, the empties tended the jam in the action. That was the only reason I did not pursue the load further. It was a very mild shooting load. Recoil was very light. The clay pigeons were broken well. Leads (and therefore velocity) were acceptable. The calculated recoil of the load fired in our approximately 6.5 # shotguns was 10.92 ft lbs. Of course those were also gas operated semiautomatics, so the actions would have further mitigated the recoil.

In any case that load shot in a 5# shotgun would yield a recoil of 14.19 ft lbs. Even that might be a little more than you want for now. Still it might be useful load for later use.

Obviously the numbers above are the most helpful when used grossly in comparing guns and loads. Regardless of the numerical absolutes, felt recoil is the supreme consideration. These formulae do not consider all factors. But as the numbers get further and further apart, they become more useful for comparative purposes. Thus a load generating 15 ft. lbs might feel much more comfortable than on yielding only 14 ft. lbs. Velocity of the recoil, is a good example of a factor not considered. But in comparing, say loads with 20 ft. lbs. of recoil with loads generating only 14 ft. lbs of recoil, the greater comfort is more likely with the load yielding the latter amount of recoil. These comment are probably truisms for most serious shooters, but for those who are not, they may prove illuminating.

In the junior division of our gun club, the shotgun coaches provide factory 20 ga. 7/8 oz. loads for club's free coaching sessions held monthly at the skeet range. However, virtually all of the shotguns are gas-operated semiautomatics. The kids range typically from about 10 to 16 years old. The program works well and is very popular. Recoil seems to be at most a minor problem, and typically at the younger ages.

I hope your nephew has as much fun as we've had in shooting.

Good luck,

John

John,

That's the tack. I customarily have plenty of Unique on hand because it's... uniquely adaptable for a huge range of uses in everything I shoot, push come to shove. And I'm aiming for a bit less velocity - anything near 1000 fps is plenty - even as low as 900 fps if I must. I could use 700x (on hand) or Green Dot or a number of thers on hand and get the powder charge down a grain or two - we'll see. I need to burn some older Unique anyway... yeah, it burns dirty - no confusion about needing to clean after shooting!

I'm not averse to shortening the case if need be, or putting a precut filler under the shot charge. The main thing will be keeping velocity low and shot charge light. I think the 11/16 oz or 5/8 oz range is on the money, although I may try some 3/4 oz loads as well. Hard to find reduced load data these days of one piece wads, but no worries.

My first gun was a beauty of a Savage M220 single shot hammerless 20 gauge with a factory polychoke. Still have it. It still has pretty fierce recoil with factory field loads and you don't want to go there with short magnums... I shot a couple of truckloads of small game with it over many years and make a few yards of gravel out of clay birds. I never noticed the recoil when I was a kid, but that's an imponderable variable. It fit me well.

My nephew's opportunities to shoot and/or hunt will be seriously constrained until he's old enough to drive himself afield - they live in the Chicago NW 'burbs. Most of his opportunities will come from visiting here and visiting Grandpa in Colorado. We'll be keeping a close eye on stock fit as he grows and fit a recoil pad as soon as it is time - that's an easy and pleasant evening's work. Or if it holds up, I may order an adult replacement buttstock from BrazaTech and set it on the shelf for now.

I don't shoot much trap or skeet nowadays, so I rarely reload shotgun anymore - too lazy and in the springtime I get great prices on cases of last year's ammo. My time is worth more to me than it used to be... and I'm starting to drift that way on most pistol ammo now, too. But about the only rifle I shoot factory ammo in is my Ultra Match Garand. Not much point in loading for it - it likes everything factory and loves Federal Gold Medal Match.

I know! I need a Dillon set up for several calibers! <grin> Maybe Santa....

A friend of mine who is still an active duty Marine just stopped by the house on his way to hunt deer. He told me an interesting story about how he was sighting in his brand new Rossi .243 yesterday after putting a scope on it and how it malfuntioned "5 or more" times out of a box of 20 rounds. He has the adult model, while my son has the youth model. He didn't even have the hammer extender in place and he was still getting light strikes. He spent the 2 hour drive here from Quantico teaching his son how to recock the weapon without moving his head, in case the deer don't run away when they hear a click. I thought maybe my gun was an isolated incident, but it's starting to sound like a trend. If I can weld his barrel and my barrel together... maybe I'll finally get that tomato stake I've always wanted. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi, George

George,

That really sucks - these look like a good idea. We'll see how this one does. So far it's gone "bang" in the bucket... I'm sure it will get a couple hundred rounds of 22 and a box of 20 gauge run through it this weekend.

I was really close to getting him a bolt action 22 single shot until I saw this. A Savage with a nice peep on the receiver was looking good... I was a little disappointed that the Marlin 15Y was up 50% in price from the last time I bought one, as that was what I first set out to get. I have no intention of getting him a centerfire rifle for a few years - probably not until he graduates from high school. He may borrow one of ours in the meantime.

If it was me, I'd put make these in 6mm BR with 1:10 twist for the youth market instead of 243. My wife's heavy barrel 1:10 Hart barreled 6mm BR is phenomenally accurate, nada for recoil, and handles 100 gr bullets fine. She doesn't care to have the chamber deepened to 243...

I'll post how the Rossi does.

Tom

Tom,

Hi!

Unique is one of our staples, but we tend to use it more in handgun loads than anything else.

For whatever reason, it really is hard to find data for reduced loads. I seem to recall an article in Wolfe's Handloader in the area of 10 years ago on reduced shotshell loads. I have also read articles on reduced loads in Handloaders Digest or Gun Digest, but probably 15 + years ago. Also An NRA publication discussed them, also about 15-20 years ago. I actually cannot recall other treatments of the issue.

Your ideas of shortening the shells or using filler/OP wads under the combination wad and shot protector sounds as if it should work.

We have a couple of Dillon 550B loaders. They work well and load very rapidly. For whatever reason, I think I am happiest using them to load straight handgun cartridges (using carbide sizers of course). Everything slows down when we go to bottlenecked rifle cartridges. I have even considered shifting back to my old Lyman All American Turret Press to get a more hands on feel. I'm not sure I get that much speed from the Dillons with the bottlenecks. However the Dillon's additional leverage is really appreciated when resizing bottlenecked brass.

I can commiserate with you on getting too busy and lazy to reload. The main area where we cannot get good factory ammo is medium powered ammunition, especially for magnum handguns. I have yet to find a good factory medium powered .357 Mag. load. I'm not happy with factory ammo in .32 H&R Mag. either. And we won't even talk about factory ammo in .45 Colt. I have a reduced recoil 12 ga. short magnum load using Blue Dot. It does seem to work well. I got it out of an NRA or Digest article about 15-20 years ago. Incidentally if you need it, I actually have a shot at locating the NRA/Digest article of 15-20 yrs ago since I used one of the loads. Come to think of it I read another article on reduced shotshell loads for beginners about 5 years ago in one of the above publication, but I don't know which. At least modern data is out there.

Some friends have a daughter who is an Olympic shotgun shooter (3-time medalist now). She typically shoots over 3000 rounds a week. Before she became prominent, her father was handloading all her ammo!!! Needless to say he likes high volume equipment.

Good luck with the load development and gun.

John

Tom,

I wish you nothing but good luck with your nephews gun. Thankfully, he's at an age where a few misfires on a range will only cause him to apply better trigger control (after he sees how hard he jerks the trigger on a misfire). But as you well know, when your'e older and alone in the woods, a reliable weapon could be the difference between life and death.

I agree with the 6mm, instead of the .243; my son got a pretty good "scope-bite" when he finally shot his deer. I think he enjoyed showing off the knot on his forehead at school though. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi, George

John,

If you happen to run across either article, please drop me a line. Don't make a special search, though - it's not a difficult undertaking (and there's a local gunstore that specializes in all matters shotgunning anyway - if it can be done with a shotgun, they know how to do it).

As you wrote, most of my Unique is burned in pistols, although it's also an ingredient in cast-bullet small game/recreational loads for some of the centerfire rifles. I've used it in the past in 12 and 20 gauge reloads as well - frequent moves over the course of my former career led me to generalize things like powder selection back then.

Hehe - you're right about those calibers and factory loads. I think I shot a box of factory 45 Colt once... heck, I don't even use factory bullets in that one. Ditto for my wife's 44 Special Target Bulldog - a nasty beastie with almost anything effective - that one was a challenge. She won't switch to anything else, though... OTOH, there's almost no reason these days to reload 45 ACP - my kids are gonna inherit a ton of brass for that. Wasn't all that long ago that you could purchase anything you wanted as long as it was either 230gr ball at ~830 fps or match swc 185/190.

As for the Dillon - all kidding aside, I don't know if my "rituals" with Rockchucker and Jr. would be easy to set aside in order to develop new rote steps... two of the boys are thinking about local competition shooting this year, though, so we'll see.

Let's drop this discussion for now - I wandered it off the thread and it must be boring and/or alarming to some of our aquaintances here <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. Nice to see you back on the forum.

Tom

George,

Malfunction and/or misfire of personal weapon has NEVER happened to me afield, and yet it has been a centerpiece event in untold numbers of nightmares over the years - hardly makes sense, eh? The few have been range-only. The thought of a wimpy "click" brings back shuddering memories of bad dreams. Glad those are the only such memories...

Tom