#34368 - 11/18/04 06:52 PM
Non-lethal ammunition?
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Member
Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 114
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Most people I’ve talked to think non-lethal ammunition is useless in home defense situations. I hear things like: “Kill the DELETED” a lot. I believe it would make my family feel better (see previous post) and I admit myself as well. I found a site that carries several different types ( http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__17/catalog__17.html). Any thoughts? Thanks.
Edited by Chris Kavanaugh (11/18/04 07:36 PM)
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#34369 - 11/18/04 07:18 PM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Addict
Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 572
Loc: Nevada
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I guess the first thing to remember is, don't get killed by leathal ammo while you have non-lethal. Also non-lethal can kill and severaly injure. Would you be better off with OC spray and a baseball bat ? I'll leave the lawsuit end of this to those that are more qualified than I am.I suppose the Taser would also be an alternative. I'm not sure about the range that non-lethal ammo is non-leathal, inside a living room might be too close.
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#34370 - 11/18/04 07:26 PM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Veteran
Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 1468
Loc: Texas
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1. You spray OC indoors and youre attacking yourself as well. I worked security in a bar in college and one night when someone sprayed mace/teargas/pepper spray it cleared the place out. This was a big bar and several people required medical treatment. Unless youre a trained profession with the appropriate equipment I would not spray OC indoors! Furthermore be VERY aware of the wind before spraying outdoors.
2. Baseball bats are extremely lethal!
3. Rock salt and rubber bullets are a nice idea but remember you endanger yourself and your family by making this your only form of defense. That being said, a nonlethal weapon is better defense than none at all in most situations.
I looked at the site and I think if youre going to try to load something like riot (rubber) shot or bean bags in order to do a favor to the person that invades your home armed with lethal ammunition, I would still only load the first two shells in an 8 round tube with such ammunition and have the rest of the tube loaded with the real thing. Also beware when buying this stuff. If you must buy nonlethal ammo I would suggest finding a law enforcement supplier. Theres a lot of crap out there that will make your barrel blow up in your face.
Editted: Corrected Type-O's and added some information.
Edited by brian (11/18/04 07:40 PM)
_________________________
Learn to improvise everything.
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#34371 - 11/18/04 08:59 PM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Veteran
Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 1320
Loc: France
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I would still only load the first two shells in an 8 round tube with such ammunition and have the rest of the tube loaded with the real thing Seems sensible. Examples of non Lethal ammo sold in France On the same site, you can see some handguns using those ammo. French laws : anybody can buy the 12/50 cartridges, filled with rubber buckshot (12 small rubber balls - ref GC27C on the mentioned web page). But you need a special permit (the same you need to buy a .357 handgun) to buy the 12/50 cartridges filled with 1 single big rubber ball. As for being non-lethal : the manufacturer of both those 12/50 cartridges recommands on the packaging not to use them under 5m. That doesn't prevent the retailler to mention on his web page "High stopping capacity up to 4m." !!!!
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Alain
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#34372 - 11/19/04 01:14 AM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Yeah, keep in mind, "non-lethal" is a misnomer. "Less-lethal" is more accurate. Only use them if you are ok with taking a life. That said, it is more considerate and although I am no legal expert, Im sure the fact that you at least tried to use less-lethal force first would work in your favor. Im sure many would disagree, but IMO, ressponsible gun owners should always have their home defence weapons loaded with one or two less lethals before actual shot. If you are going to use lethal ammo, consider something like Glaser safty slugs or thunderzaps for pistols and all the variety of oddball shotgun loads that are less-lethal. Again, im sure many would disagree, but I oppose the use of rifles for home defence for both practicallity and safety issues.
It is always better to be saftey conscience and considerate than to risk tragedy.
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#34373 - 11/19/04 01:40 AM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1224
Loc: Milwaukee, WI USA
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MichaelJ:
I have some qualms about answering a post that was edited by Chris the administrator, but I guess you can't be as bad as a certain Aussie I took to task.
I have burglar alarm warnings posted all over the entrances to my domain. They are not some yahoo companies that claim expertise in the field but are Radio Shack products that were designed according to my wants.
If someone were too stupid to read the warnings and dumber yet to not run away when the outside klaxon horns (Screw the bell alarms!) start screaming and the chimney mounted red light starts blinking and they continue to enter, and if I am home at the time, then the only testimony that will be considered is that of the guy standing (ME!) over the bodies (THEM!) no longer breathing.
IF YOU CAN'T ACCEPT THAT SCENERIO, THROW YOUR WEAPONS AWAY, PUT SIGNS UP AROUND YOUR DOMAIN SAYING "SHEEP INSIDE" AND GET ON YOUR KNEES AND GIVE THEM WHATEVER THEY WANT IF AND WHEN THEY DO COME IN! <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Geesh!, these kinds of posts demonstrate how the Huns and other aggressive types in small numbers were able to ride roughshod over the masses.
Bountyhunter
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#34374 - 11/19/04 03:35 AM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 3824
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Pete, calm down. Michael's first post contained a single expletive. I deleted it. No crisis. I should carry a stopwatch and start a betting pool for how long certain subjects initiate eye twitching. Doug could take a winnings % and actually get our profanity filter operating again and buy critter a new truckbed. Michael has expressed ethical concerns that someone in the firearms industry has obviously responded to. Flaming him is exactly what the firearms community and ETS needs, isn't it?
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#34375 - 11/19/04 04:49 AM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Old Hand
Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
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1. You spray OC indoors and youre attacking yourself as well. I worked security in a bar in college and one night when someone sprayed mace/teargas/pepper spray it cleared the place out. This was a big bar and several people required medical treatment. Unless youre a trained profession with the appropriate equipment I would not spray OC indoors! Furthermore be VERY aware of the wind before spraying outdoors. In addition to different spray patterns (stream & cone), they make foam OC for indoor use. You can also get Sudecon decontaminate wipes. However, AFAIK, the foam is harder to use and you need to get it into the attacker's eyes/nose/mouth which might be a bit trickier than it sounds. However, the thing you need to consider with OC, is after you have sprayed the guy, what then? You only have given yourself a temporary edge. You still have a (potentially) huge guy with a (possibly) knife/gun in your house, and now he's probably really POed. Typically the answer is "run away really fast", but that works a lot better for joggers, not for someone in their house with the inherent barriers to escape in addition to the need to protect your family. -john FWIW, I've heard good things about the Fox Labs OC spray. They offer cone, stream and foam in various sizes.
Edited by JohnN (11/19/04 04:50 AM)
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#34377 - 11/19/04 05:32 AM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Enthusiast
Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 351
Loc: Centre Hall Pa
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Non leathal!!! Forget it. It is only worthwhile for LEO's engaged in riot duty. They have back up on the spot if the threat level increases.
In your home you are the front linr and the back up. You can't aford not to use the most devastating force available to you. If you are alione you can take the chance. If you are protecting your family the idea is to end any confrontation instantly.
Nic as to less than leathal Glassers are actually more damaging to the end target than most other rounds. The safety part is that the are designed to minimize over penitration and ricochet potential not lessen the effect on the person being shot. The only thing the name safety slug has going for it in those terms is in court. Your lawyer can say well he tried not to hurt him to bad he did use safety slugs.
I'm not saying that Glassers are not good defense round. In fact they are excellent for that use its just that they are by far not non leathal.
But you best home defense weapon is a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot 6 or even smaller.
_________________________
When in danger or in doubt run in circles scream and shout RAH
And always remember TANSTAAFL
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#34379 - 11/19/04 06:33 AM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Old Hand
Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
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But you best home defense weapon is a 12 gauge loaded with birdshot 6 or even smaller While at close range with no obstacles, birdshot would be very effective, slight barriers and distance quickly become an issue. How about #1 buckshot or something like that instead? -john
Edited by JohnN (11/19/04 06:38 AM)
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#34380 - 11/19/04 07:51 AM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1821
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ever considered just to install beter locks and hinges on your doors and windows to keep the burgular out at the first place. And it will also work wenn your not home. I have to say that i noticed that the locks used in the us for plain family houses are very weak. And little other forms of burgular protection is installed to the house.
Here in holland you can get a police cetificate if you house is protected to a certain level. Like a triple closure frontdoor lock with a harden steel, non removable plate to protect the cilinder. With ofcourse "claws" on the hinged side of the door. Windows are only openable from inside with a key. And stuff...
A weapon should only be used as a very last massure and not as the first and only defens of you house. I'm not saying that weapons are bad tools to defend your self, but don't forget all the other meassures you can take to prevent burgulars (or worse) in your house.
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#34381 - 11/19/04 12:11 PM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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This series of posts has started to drift into the area of self defense. Perhaps this subject would be better addressed on a forum or forums dedicated to that subject. Not that self defense is not part of survival, but because it is a large complicated subject that goes way beyond what this forum normally deals with.
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#34382 - 11/19/04 06:05 PM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1224
Loc: Milwaukee, WI USA
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Chris:
I did not think I was flaming him despite the roar I made. I was trying shock therapy by being overly dramatic about the options he had if he spent too much time considering "the poor intruders" safety.
I prefer to never be woken up in the middle of the night by intruders which is why I place burglar alarm stickers all over the place. I use klaxon horns for the audio shock value on those that set them off for general break-ins, and proximity switched destructive klaxon horns for any pros that get past the general alarm and especially in my attached garage.
I do not believe anyone should consider firearms for self defence unless they have set certain parameters for how they will use them. Considering the safety of the intruder in my home who is intent on hurting me or mine has never been a consideration for me. I subscribe to the rule of, "IT IS BETTER TO BE TRIED BY 12 THAN TO BE CARRIED BY 6" (Probably 8 in my case in order to avoid hernias to my pallbearers.).
MichaelJ:
I do not want you to fear posting your views because as a group we learn more from each other the greater our number. I appauld your concern for human life, it is just that I have already drawn my line in the sand and have decided what I can live with as far as hurting certain of my fellow human beings. You are still struggling with those questions, and I hope you decide to do what is good for the many good people in this world and understand that under some circumstances the bad people have to be removed one way or another. I prefer avoidance, but when it is not available, I have no qualms about destroying any assailants.
To MichaelJ and others who do not know the nature of my posts, I apologize if the flame nature of my post seemed personal based on his beliefs. I want the good people to survive and my post was intended to dramatically point out the alternative that will occur when you worry about hurting or killing the bad guys.
This apology was not requested or demanded by anyone and is sincere in its content.
Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
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#34383 - 11/19/04 06:12 PM
Re: Non-lethal ammunition?
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Registered: 11/14/03
Posts: 1224
Loc: Milwaukee, WI USA
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Kantuc2:
You are right, but even I screwed up as a "Newbie" and am grateful that Doug & Chris give the new guys a little more slack.
I would have posted this "Around the Campfire", but that is a process of learning about this forum.
Bountyhunter
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