I was just wondering why in the section "skills and techniques" basic fire craft, there was no mention about friction fire lighting. why no mention about it? it is hugely important technique. what if you lose your firelighting equippment, what then? <br>-james

Becuase it is a technique that requires a lot of knowledge and experince. What kind of woods are right, where to get them, how to shape them, how to use them, that kind of thing.<br><br>I know less technologically based methods, but I've also voluntarily chosen to use them as my primary methods on many camping trips over many years, saving my matches for a real emergency should it arise. And guess what- if the stuff hits the fan, I don't trust my skills to build the tools and get a fire going before I freeze to death. <br><br>These skills have thier place, but not the "casual survivor" (someone who usually doesn't plan to, for example, slip on a trail, sliding down a bank during which time they break thier leg, and end up with a 15' drop into a frozen over pond, and/or give up 3000 years of civilization and go back to the stone age on thier own). These are skills for a long-term situation, which is just about impossible to get into these days. The casual survivor should be learning how to use a PSK and to signal for help long before they start making stone knives and spining firebows. <br><br>Not tring to take you off at the knees, it's just not a technique that in a true survival situation you will have TIME to use, much less need.

Hi James,<br><br>This isn't an authoritative response, because I'm just a guy hanging around here, but here are my answers.<br><br>short version:<br><br>Heck, it's an uphill climb just trying to convince the average weekend pilot to carry some basic tools, let alone trying to convince them they need to learn how to make those same tools!<br><br>long version:<br><br>I'm just taking a stab at this here, but I'd guess that the reason is because of the original basic thrust of this website, which is to focus on ways the average pilot could be better equipped to survive in the short term should they ever have to make a forced landing in an inhospitable locale. Trying to sell the average private pilot on keeping a basic two person survival kit in their plane is hard enough. Tring to convince that same pilot that in order to safely fly they need to practice friction fire starting methods also is a little off the original focus of making sure you have the right gear to suvive until SAR can get you out of there.<br><br>I'll get a little silly here, in order to hopefully explain better than I did above. To extend your question, "what if you lose your firelighting equippment"... what if you lose your cutting equipment? What then? Why is there no mention of basic knapping skills? It is a hugely important teqhniqe. So, in order to fly your single prop two seater anywhere, you need to study, practice and learn how to go into the wilderness bare handed and barefoot, twist bark fiber into thread and cord to make a snare to catch a small animal to skin with the flint or obsidian knife you need to learn how to make by hand so you can sew leather & fur moccasins with the bone needle you need to learn how to make... all so you can fly your single prop two seater on the weekends. That would be awesome, but try to convince the average guy who just likes planes that he needs to invest that kind of energy into it... not likely, I think.<br><br>The list of genuinely important skills, even what we all may agree are indeed "hugely important" skills, can be extended still further, but Doug would likely very quickly find he was no longer talking to the private pilots he originally started out trying to reach. I'm only assuming here, from other things I've read on his website and this forum, but I'd guess that Doug doesn't focus on primitive skills because he has a hard enough time convincing the average General Aviation pilot to even carry a decent radio or proper knife, let alone sufficient water.<br><br>The website has extended and expanded its original focus over time, and we on the forum have extended that basic thrust quite a bit , but the basic principle above remains operative. Trying to convince the average homeowner that they, yes, really DO need to shell out the money to buy a gas gock wrench to keep by their gas meter is going to be a lot more likely than convincing the same average homeowner that they need to give up their lazy relaxing weekends to go practice making a fire bow in the downpouring rain, just to make sure they can if they ever need to. I mean, it sounds like fun to me, but I doubt the average guy who just wants to watch TV by his fireplace and wait for the rain to stop is likely to join me. Heck, it's probably hard enough just trying to convince them to keep a couple of days of water in their pantry. This website if as much for them, to teach them what they can do to live a more prepared life, as it is for the gung ho ones who next want to learn how to carve their own fire pistons.

I don't agree with you there cyberraven, I think it is a skill your going to need in a "real survival situation". <br>however I understand what you are saying "jet" about the purpose of this site. <br>thank you both for your views.<br>-james

Well, I'd invite you to describe a realistic scenario. The one I gave is an exageration on one point only- I didn't break my leg three years ago, I dislocated my knee when I slipped on an icy patch on a trail that I'd walked a couple times a month since I was 6, before tumbling down the side of the ridge. The fact that two of my friends were with me and we were a quarter mile from my house is why I can type this. I've gone through ice a few times, and have stayed out longer hunting or on hikes longer than I should a have from time to time. <br><br>In most of the US you'll probably be found in under 24 hours unless you are unconsious, dead or purposefully trying to hide. Usually when people need survival skills, injury, lack of proper planning, and/or hypothermia (dehydration in some places) are the major reasons for needing it.<br><br>People who don't plan ahead far enough to think "It's November and I'm hiking Mt Washinton, maybe I should bring warm clothes and a shelter", won't learn the basics. If you're really hurt or hypothermic, you probably won't the be able to take the time to build friction materials, before a dropping core temp or shock make your hands shake so bad you can't use them. But you can usually get a fire lit, if you have matches and tinder on you.<br><br>I can and have, in an hour, taught people how to build a fire in under ten minutes, using matches. And they remember. I doubt the same can be said for friction techniques. It took me years to learn how to reliably (80%+) build a fire using a bow, and this wasn't something I was spending a couple minutes a year studying. It took me a couple months of four or five trys a week before I could build a decent bow and board using just a knife, and even now that takes a while. I think people SHOULD learn these skills, as supplimental skills AFTER mastering the basics. But I'm also the person who thinks people who can't tell a pine from a spruce shouldn't be allowed out of the suburbs. <br><br>I'm not trying to make this a flame war, and if that's where you want to take this, take it out of the group. But I believe you are dangerously overestimating the usefulness of certain techniques. Teaching people to make bows and cord and how to knap flints is all well and good, but real world with real people, it isn't going to happen. If you can find me two cases over the past 20 years that occured in the continental US, Canada or Alaska, where the ability ot light fire by friction, or any other neolithic skills, saved the day and the person wasn't trying to hide from searchers, you'll have found the first two I've ever seen.

well firstly I'm not trying to make this in to a "flame war" and I'm sorry if you thought I was. what I ment was this is a skill that could be needed in a survival situation, for me I allredy know how to light a fire quickly if I have matches, so leaning to use friction methods is that next step in a long journey. <br>I wasn't serjesting that you teach the "averege" person to use a bow drill or hand drill (though it wouldn't hurt to try!).<br>-james

James,<br><br>The answers you recieved from Jet and Cyberraven pretty much cover the issues (Thanks guys!). This site is focused on practical survival equipment and basic survival skills. No basic survival guide, which by definition is what the article "A Survival Primer" is about, can or should include esoteric skills unlikely to be useful to a novice who hasn't had instruction. We make no pretense at providing anything but the most basic techniques here. This site stresses carrying basic survival gear on your person so that the average person is encouraged to have the gear they need when they need it. My aim is to help those who are interested to select the best equipment for their needs, encourage those who are prepared to improve their preparations and to encourage those who are not currently prepared at all to become prepared in at least a minimal manner comensurate with their minimal and basic skill set. For those interested in advanced techniques, there are plenty of good resoruces, some of which are linked on our schools, books and links pages.<br><br>Learning primitive survival skills such as you ask about is valuable for a host of reasons, and can be great fun, but the reality is that 99.99999% of the time, simply carrying reliable, waterpoof fire making gear in your pocket will do the job with minimal skill necessary. For that matter, 99.9% of the time a lousy butane lighter or book of paper matches will do. If I could get everyone to just do that and read our SurvivaL Primer, many lives could be saved.<br><br>Hope this answers your question.

it does indeed, thank you very much.<br>howevr I have one more Q, can you light fire by friction?<br>-james

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>can you light fire by friction?<p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>By a variety of methods, yes I have done so. I wouldn't consider myself an expert at it. I also wouldn't care to stake my life on doing so under adverse conditions or circumstances.